Noise in the water

Boats, Jet Skis, Kayaks etc., including hovercrafts
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methods
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Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 1:47 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRgMBO-U3SE

Of course there will be noise in the water.

The question is not whether or not there will be noise... but rather... how does that noise affect sea creatures and how much better/worse will it be than what is already happening with giant ICE engines running 24/7

I think it is time to bring electric on water up to the surface.

-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 1:49 pm

I'm doing groundwork research for my open letter to Zero Motorcyles...

Like any letter...
It takes 2 hours to write

But only after 2000 hours of research.

-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 11, 2017 1:56 pm

methods wrote:I'm doing groundwork research for my open letter to Zero Motorcyles...

Like any letter...
It takes 2 hours to write

But only after 2000 hours of research.

-methods
Methods, an open letter? about what?
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 1:58 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elxbkDZcQVU

time 2:20
These guys are awesome

The experience of regen on water...
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 2:01 pm

Corrosion is what you are thinking about ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leJwi9fyQRw

Yep... no amount of filler or barriers will solve it...
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 2:03 pm

Doctorbass wrote:
Methods, an open letter? about what?
The relationship of quality issues to funding.

-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 2:23 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAuYuq1oZIQ

time: 3:07
Lots to learn...

no one should do it at any time...
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by fechter » Apr 11, 2017 2:33 pm

Remember Randy Draper? Volcano climbing ebike on Maui. He had a solar powered outrigger canoe that looked similar to this one:
solar_outrigger.jpg
solar_outrigger.jpg (9.89 KiB) Viewed 1284 times
He was ahead of his time...

Solar panels are a lot better these days, and so are electric motors. Worried about corrosion? How about a MHD drive? No pesky moving parts to get stuck and it's super quiet. Just not so efficient.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: Noise in the water

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 11, 2017 2:41 pm

methods wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRgMBO-U3SE

Of course there will be noise in the water.

The question is not whether or not there will be noise... but rather... how does that noise affect sea creatures and how much better/worse will it be than what is already happening with giant ICE engines running 24/7

I think it is time to bring electric on water up to the surface.

-methods
For whales I think its the hull mounted diesels firing that makes the best sound transfer to the water vs the prop spinning.

Electric motors from the right drive (white noise PWM current control freq to break resonance) can be pretty nearly silent, or silent to the extent the prop makes many orders of magnitude more noise (as a guess, ive not measured).
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 3:26 pm

Boy these sure are handy: blind wellnuts

Used them (the 1/4" flavor which requires a 1/2" hole) to build a transom onto the Kayak.


* Align wood with Kayak
* Drill pilot alignment holes - 1/4"
* Remove wood and drill plastic out to 1/2"
* Insert well nuts, replace wood, add washers, drive 1/4" stainless fasteners into well nuts

Careful not to push them in.

Result (of building a transom with nothing but an angle grinder and scrap wood on hand)
IMG_20170408_170736.jpg
IMG_20170408_170550.jpg


-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 3:53 pm

IMG_20170408_192017.jpg
Got it out on the water.

Thought a lot about quality.

My experiences at Zero, Tesla, and other companies
The Military Industrial Complex
and... budget.

So here is the budget on the 50+ TLAM (Known to you as Tomahawk) Nuclear Cruse Missiles we sent over to our friends in Syria the other day:
http://www.schindlerengineering.com/6068.pdf

The news has not covered it much but make no mistake... it was a flexing of muscles by our president... any one of those 550mph monsters could have carried a nuclear package capable of doing orders of magnitude more damage.

Now look through those suppliers.

Raytheon -Yep, been there. Huge workforce.

Tesla - yep, been there... HUGE workforce

Google - yep, been there... HUGE workforce

Zero - yep, been there... lean startup

We are starting to see a lot of small companies trying to emulate the output of VERY LARGE companies but on a budget.
There are pro's and con's to this approach

-methods
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
(of course... that is fechter's signature... and .... too important not to repeat)

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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » Apr 11, 2017 4:13 pm

Now...

At a huge company... like... say... Sandia National Labs... there is budget to have a guy like me on staff, 24/7, for 3 or 4 decades.
There are many like me at the labs.

Smart guys... full of energy... sometimes difficult to work with... but in it for the long haul and serious about engineering.

Folks at the labs know how to work a smart guy to peak efficiency.
20%... or sometimes 30% of the time these guys need to be working on something OTHER THAN what they are told to work on.

This keeps quality up, attitudes positive, and drives innovation.
The mind needs time to cook a problem.
Better results come from this.

A lean Startup grinds you to the bone.
Forces you to make compromises which don't need to be made.

I know this from experience.
Startups... dont get me started...

-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » May 02, 2017 12:26 pm

The latest update....

ultralight
small.jpg
small.jpg (75.49 KiB) Viewed 1154 times
What we are working up to here is a semi-Zero power train in a very light weight boat for navigating (first) the harbor and (then) the open water.
Just need to get past the harbor break... and we are home free.

Before we can attempt to harness so much power we have to understand the dynamics of a transom and how that affects the boat and mounting.
Rocking front to back
Leaning side to side
Ability to turn (mounting front, middle, rear)
Dealing with shallow water
Getting the prop far enough into the water
Trim angle
Stuff like that.

I have speed boat experience... but I want to do something that has almost no draft so that at full power I am basically skidder-skipping on nothing but the prop.
Yea... hopefully it will flip over.
Thats why we wear wet-suits and helmets.

As for the prop eating me... thats a concern.
Would sure like some sort of inboard solution... but thats a whole different art.

What I have is a Zero Motorcycle and a wrench
What I want is a power boat
We will see....

-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » May 05, 2017 2:22 pm

Report:

SO it turns out... (no pun intended) that a craft like the one pictured above DOES NOT constitute a good starting platform for scaling power. Steering is unmanageable as the vehicle just wants to vector to whatever position you aim the prop instead of arching like you would expect with rear steering. Obviously... its due to the flat bottom.. which is required for the 6" deep passages that we were exploring.

The steering issue does not pop up at all with any of my vessels which have a Vbottom or Vbow... yep... makes sense. Its a keel or rudder of sorts.

So - to make a super low draft vehicle work with high power attention will have to be paid to keeping a straight edge in the water. I am sure every boating enthusiast in the world knows this... but I am a land and air animal with limited experience in experimental water craft.

We finally blew up the motor above.
Failure mode was fishing line wrapped up in the prop causing an over-current.
Had to push the vehicle 1 mile back to port.
Was running 4S 90Ah Thundersag cells on a motor that was designed for 12V lead acid and had seen 24V lead acid in the field.
24V on the stock switch blew out the mid-power channels due to over-current.
Oddly enough... moments before the entire system failed... the granularity of the speed controller returned!
Adventure.jpg
Adventure.jpg (47.89 KiB) Viewed 1089 times
Disassembling today - expect to find reflowed solder, burnt resistors and coils, etc.
Do not anticipate burnt coils in the motor as I believe it is the same spec motor as found in the 24V option and prop sizing controls speed and thrust.

Until next time... Eat your Broccoli and dont take antacids from strangers.



-methods
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by fechter » May 06, 2017 10:36 pm

So how fast did it go before it blew up?

Maybe add a small fin like a surf board in the front so it will steer.
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Re: Noise in the water

Post by methods » May 14, 2017 11:01 am

I have a pic for you Fecther...
Kimberly figured out that she could put the paddle in the water in the front and steer fine (We made a later vessel... pics later after I transfer and compress them)

Speed was not high nor was thrust
You know how it goes... brick wall exponential resistance

I disassembled the motor (pics later)

Found one of the brushes had cooked down and spat out
Full of Iron Oxide and Copper crystals of some sort
Cleaned it out with a hose
Flipped the brush over
Back in action!

-methods
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"
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