Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Marc S. » Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:04 am

teklektik wrote:
Marc S. wrote:I've raised the lowDeadband threshold level and it works... better.
Still nowhere near as smooth and precise as in v3.1b10 (while in the setup menu, its all nice and smooth, even with a LowDeadband setting of 0.15V).

While turning the pod, the display still seems a bit sluggish at changing the values. Sometimes, when turning the pod end to end, it goes from 0-max without 'counting up' (or down). It still doesn't go down to 0W every time, though.

Okay - setting sounds fine now so that business is off the table... The granularity of change seems odd - this will need some thought and tinkering.
Thanks for the report.


After a couple of days in use, it seems that the display 'sluggishness' depends how fast I turn the potentiometer.

If I turn the pot fast, the PAS value is imprezise and doesn't go down to 0W. If I turn it slowly, the display values go smooth from 0W to 400W.
When I'm in the setup menu, it doesn't matter how fast the pot is turned, it always goes from 0-100% in a smooth fashion.

teklektik wrote:
Marc S. wrote:I definately want the 0-100% assist power display back!
My assist power factor is set to 8W/rpm, my cadence is between 85-100rpm and I've got a Patterson Metropolis with 1:1.6 overdrive. The actual max assit power is around 1.1kW when I'm pedaling in overdrive.
Hence the PAS power I set with the pod, has nothing to do with the actual PAS power. The 0-100% display was much more intuitive.

Yep - that AuxChange pop-up was pretty annoying. We now have a new upgraded pop-up that shows the actual delivered power at the present rpm. This seems a big improvement over the previous 'baseline power only' display that omitted the rpm component.

That said, I was already thinking that the simpler 0-100% Aux scale display is nice since it's cadence-independent. We need a little more road time with the new display - these things sometimes don't feel as good in actual use as one might imagine when cooking the code. :D We may just fly the new version as is and see how the feedback goes...


I understand. You sometimes got a brilliant idea, that doesn't work quite as great in reality. Happens to me all the time... :D

Frankly, I don't care about having the precise PAS assist wattage on display when turning the pot. The 0-100% PAS assit values worked perfectly in that regard.
Since I see the actual assist wattage on the main display, a slight nudge at the pot is sufficient to adjust it.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby izeman » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:55 am

today i had a new experience with the throttle modes.

i use the CA for many years now, and never had it set to anything else but "PASS THRU" and all values 99.99V/s to make it act as INSTANT as possible. everything should be handled by the controller and the throttle shoud be as clean as possible. maybe this was the wrong way to do it?

i set the mode to "SPEED" and the bike was SO snappy. the throttle voltage went up WAYS FASTER than in "PASS THRU", making the bike wheely all the time. in pass thru the power comes slower and smoother.

what could be limiting the signal in pass thru? sure i've set max power and amps to be able to use a switch to limit the power if needed. is this the problem?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:49 pm

izeman-
Ok - this is strange.
Both the PassThru and Speed Throttle exit through the same UpRate/DownRate logic and both are limited to ThOMax, so I'm a bit at a loss.
What firmware are you running?
I'm guessing you checked, but are you seeing any limit flags in PassThru Mode?
Do you see either of the tiny UpRate/FastRate flags when in PassThru mode?

In any case, I'll try to duplicate this symptom tomorrow.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby izeman » Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:49 am

Tek, i'll check today and also will add a CA config.
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Re: wish list features

Postby John Bozi » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:11 pm

justin_le wrote:
John Bozi wrote:There's no question how great the CA is, however, I wonder if this is the right place to add suggestions or is there thread else where for wish list of future features?


Yes, this is the right place, and you can also put in a feature request on the google docs here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/grin- ... yst-3.html
down in the "features request and bug report" section at the end.

1. Same as the temperature control for the motor, it would be logical to have one for controllers too. So alternating the display between the too with
M 100
C100 would be amazing.


Unfortunately there is only one input signal available for the temperature sensor. It's quite possible to hookup a toggle switch to select between to different thermistors while riding, so you can choose which temperature you want to see, but the CA3 would of course only be able to do thermal rollback on one of them at a time. Usually controllers will have their own internal temperature sensor and rollback/cutout, while motors have no such protection, so sensing and reacting to the motor temp is more prudent.

2. Instead of just total voltage, have a connector to allow various cell level display. Somehow in Justin magic code be able to display the lowest cell at all times. This would be way more important than showing overall voltage. It could alternate between the two?


It's on the V3.1 release plan to show what the average cell voltage is like instead of just the net pack voltage. To actually sense the individual cell voltages would require the CA3 to be communicating with the BMS as the BMS circuit is the only item on the ebike aware of per-cell voltages, and as there is no standard at all for BMS communications it's a tall order to offer this feature in any universal capacity. Plus, when you have a BMS, you don't really care about individual cell voltages as a) they are almost always exactly the same anyways, and b) the BMS will already look after protection and pack cutout if there is a low cell.

I imagine most people wanting per-cell display are riding DIY packs without a BMS circuit, and the real answer to that is "get a BMS circuit!". Perhaps it's not the ES way, but its definitely the right way.

Just tell me if these are stupid ideas, and yes I know there are other products to do this stuff, but I just think having one display for everything an ebiker needs is better than 100.


Not stupid at all, the dual temperature could and likely would be done if there were more available IO pads, but the per-cell readout would involve designing and making a separate product (level shifting cell monitor that communicates with the CA3), which isn't in the cards in the near future. We came close to going down that path 3-4 years ago, but I'm convinced that all packs should simply have a BMS in the first place.


This a year old necro quote reply sorry. I didn't see this reply from Justin till now while searching for info about regen issues of all things just below the info I was reading.

Interestingly enough in the meantime "my" idea was realised by adaptto, I swear I didn't know it existed if it did at the time of my wish list....

EDIT: But I must note I was not interested in a cell draining bms. I just want the display to know when to balance the cells.

Image

I haven't gone that route because I want the CA and would feel locked in to what sounds like poor support using their complete system and $$$$.

I don't trust BMS direct from China that I can't see individual voltage readings. I just thought some how a stand alone board for all the hk lipo users could choose for example 4 x 6s packs and plug in our balance leads into and have that reading come up on the screen might have massive appeal. Pretty sure there is a decent hobby lipo customer base still today.

You can tell people to do something such as using a bms or you can face up to the reality that we will not and actually still make a difference to the ebike community. Voltage and heat are the biggest things to monitor and could possibly not only save components, but also save lives.

On the temp sensor point, a switch would be completely "cool" (and reassuring for diy-ers where we push the limits of batteries and controllers) that you can swap between battery, controller and motor. My lyen is much hotter to touch than my qs and although I check my 8 x 12ah 6s multistar packs (100v 24ah) every ride for balance, I would love to know when there were an unacceptable heat increase to the packs.

I imagine this would require two products lots of diyers would buy from you.

1. a small board for bat balance leads
2. a switch connected to 3 temperature leads (include optional extra probes for how many required)

In the last few years of riding 3 different rear hub motors, a front hub motor, 2 different mid drives, 4 different controllers, a multitude of battery set ups, I haven't changed my opinion on the usefulness of having individual cell readings (or at least the worst cell EDIT: the max-min cells or even difference) and the usefulness of having temperature readings of the 3 main components that make up the DIY ebike world. Sure I can slap 8 of these on my bike....

Image

Finally, sorry if this was annoying. Love your products and am a serious supporter of your work.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Bouteille51 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:19 am

Hello all,

I would have a question/suggestion that relates to cruise control.
I configured my throttle to control torque (pass-through on CA, but torque control on phaserunner). However my wife complained that cruise control keeps increasing speed while she would need a constant speed. This seems indeed counter intuitive when compared to cars. In a car, 'cruise control' maintains speed (unless I am wrong), adjusting torque accordingly.
With my configuration, it maintains torque instead of speed, but I would like to avoid changing my throttle configuration to 'speed limit' in order to achieve constant speed.

If not possible with existing CA yet, I think that implementing 'speed' cruise control would give both advantages of (1) getting the choice of a pleasant torque control with throttle, and (2) a more intuitive cruise control when you need it. That would probably require implementing an independent PID loop for cruise control but totally worth it for added comfort in my opinion.

For the sake of flexibility, it would be nice to be able to configure cruise control with several options ('speed', 'W', 'Amps', 'as throttle').

Could that be interesting ?

That's my first question but I actually have a bunch of other ones, with suggestions for future version of CA... Should I do a very long post with sections or go step by step ? :D

Thank you for the awesome work, I love the CA :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:55 am

Bouteille51 wrote:I configured my throttle to control torque (pass-through on CA, but torque control on phaserunner). However my wife complained that cruise control keeps increasing speed while she would need a constant speed.
...
With my configuration, it maintains torque instead of speed, but I would like to avoid changing my throttle configuration to 'speed limit' in order to achieve constant speed.

Yep - the CA3 cruise control mimics the 'locked throttle' strategy of controllers several years back and does present some issues when used with a controller with torque-throttle control.

The easiest means to attack this is to add an Aux control that is configured to limit speed. This leaves the PAS or throttle ramping unaffected and directly does what you want without requiring switching to Speed Throttle (which IMO has a total alien throttle feel for normal riding - not the same at all to what is commonly referred to as controller 'speed throttle').

Here you might add a pot or DigiAux button assembly and set it up for Speed Limiting. Just engage autocruise and diddle the buttons to get the desired speed. If the wife rides with others, then more DigiAux steps are a good plan so she can better match their speed. I like to set up DigiAux with 1 more step that the the number of actual increments so the displayed values make more sense (e.g. for 10 levels, configure for 11 steps so things go up by 10% each button push...)

An alternative to autocruise is to install a simple PAS wheel that is configured for a bunch of power, then use the Aux speed control to limit speed as above. Here you adjust the PAS ramping to give a nice smooth response and the normal throttle ramping is unaffected. This is nice if you just like to pedal since you don't have to do the usual 'hold the throttle' trick to get autocruise engaged - just start pedaling and away you go at the desired speed. Using the throttle disables the PAS so the bike reverts to normal operation and ignores any pedaling.

Since you are using a Phaserunner, adding the Aux speed control has a nice extra effect -- if you have a DD motor, you can enable regen braking. With this enabled, you can just dial up the speed you want going down hills and the bike will automagically brake using regen to hold that max speed - no ebraking required. So - the wife can dial up a speed and the bike will apply power above her pedal effort to maintain that speed (either autocruise or PAS) and smoothly switch to regen to hold that speed on the downhills.

So - some options to change the riding experience. :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Bouteille51 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:38 am

Thank you teklektik, your suggestion is indeed a great workaround !

As I am trying to avoid adding more things on my handlebar, is it something that could (theoretically) be implemented in software in the long term, or did you reach some microcontroller limitations on this (eg. available timers) ?

BTW is there a specific thread for ideas to be implemented in future firmware/hardware version of CA ?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:07 pm

Bouteille51 wrote:... is it something that could (theoretically) be implemented in software in the long term, or did you reach some microcontroller limitations on this (eg. available timers) ?

BTW is there a specific thread for ideas to be implemented in future firmware/hardware version of CA ?

There's no special thread for CA 'futures'. This thread has lots of suggestions along the way and many of them were implemented.

The microprocessor is pretty much up against the wall for configuration room. Space for new settings is always a consideration so we try not to add frivolous features that will not have genuine appeal to a large demographic and will otherwise eat up precious memory. Features that can only reasonably be added with per-preset settings are particularly expensive since the configuration space requirement is tripled.

The 3.1 firmware has focused on improving the displays and Aux controls, exploiting the proportional regen control in Grin controllers, and most importantly - improving PAS features. Although autocruise has some appeal, it does seem to stray from a bike-like riding experience and so perhaps has not seemed as attractive as enhancing PAS operation which continues to be an area of particular interest to Grin.

In any case, there's a long list of ToDos - including autocruise stuff. The feature set for 3.1 is closed out and at this point we can't clearly foresee which new items will survive the 3.2 triage...

So - keep the ideas coming and I guarantee that they will get consideration - just not until after 3.1 is released.... :D
Last edited by teklektik on Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta releasek

Postby Bouteille51 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:50 am

Thank you teklektik, I'll go for an aux potentiometer on my wife's ebike.

Don't worry I totally understand that you have to go through a lot of work for updates and that it requires to take a lot into consideration. You are doing an amazing job and all of us are already spoiled with the CA :D

I did not intend to be pushy, just taking an opportunity to suggest what came to my mind.
All updates provide a ton of new things to explore and I'll be following them with interest !

So here are some other crazy ideas for version 4 ;)

- 'Click and go' mounting bracket with embedded connector to remove CA from my handlebar when parked (A lot of interesting things to be developped on that)
- Ability to control an external relay switch from menus (through repurposed aux pins ?), for lights etc...
- A quick-access menu to choose between configuration preset (allowing to remove additional buttons on my ebikes)
- Allow to select 'pack' or 'cell' volts (as suggested by Marc S.), together with an advanced battery A and B presets that changes LVC etc...
- Open source release of an old version of the cycle analyst (Hardware and/or software, eventually partial release) ? That would allow people to participate developing potential new or custom functionalities.

I'll stop here for today :D
Thank you again for your proximity with users of the CA, this is also why we all love this device !
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta releasek

Postby teklektik » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:22 am

Bouteille51 wrote:- A quick-access menu to choose between configuration preset (allowing to remove additional buttons on my ebikes)

Already there in 3.0 with Hot Swap buttons on console (see "2.2 Mode Presets" in the Unofficial Guide).

Bouteille51 wrote:- Allow to select 'pack' or 'cell' volts (as suggested by Marc S.), together with an advanced battery A and B presets that changes LVC etc...

As discussed above, the alternating pack/cell voltage version is available now in 3.1 beta firmware. We synched the alternation of the top two fields of the Main Screen so everything changes at once to minimize the psychedelic impact and mazimize the time the screen holds steady for perusal (fewer stolen glances from the road). Fixed display of cell volts got a bit more discussion recently and is on the review list for futures.

Battery LVC (Batt->VltCutoff) is already maintained on a per-pack basis. Regen voltage limits are a little trickier, but are on the list for investigation.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Bouteille51 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:53 am

Sorry I missed these features from the documentation... :oops:
Awesome, more things to play with :mrgreen:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby speedmd » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:38 am

Blue tooth possibilities?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:14 pm

speedmd wrote:Blue tooth possibilities?

New product news is really up to JLE to release, but I think it's safe to say the new Ligo batteries won't be the last Grin Bluetooth product (wink wink). :wink:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby gronph » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:56 am

teklektik wrote:
speedmd wrote:Blue tooth possibilities?

New product news is really up to JLE to release, but I think it's safe to say the new Ligo batteries won't be the last Grin Bluetooth product (wink wink). :wink:


A Dream would be a Cycle Analyst with Smartphone APP :D
Or An CA with a modern Colour Display :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby fussler » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:48 pm

I would love to see bluetooth or even somthing i could use Rfid to change profiles on :)

Can someone tell me how to the Throttle out ramp up works?

My bike just jurks at the smallest throttle turn. 1500W leafmotor @ 25A Grin controller

Thanks
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby amberwolf » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:47 am

gronph wrote:A Dream would be a Cycle Analyst with Smartphone APP :D

Like this one?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59893
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Bouteille51 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:39 am

Like this one?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59893

Wow that is genius !

Imagine if a future CA firmware allows it to be controlled through basic commands on the TTL port.
The app could become the main interface, then you have countless options for stealth mounting, data logging etc... while keeping all greatness from CA...

Is it actually possible already ?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Marc S. » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:25 pm

Bouteille51 wrote:
Like this one?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=59893

Wow that is genius !

Imagine if a future CA firmware allows it to be controlled through basic commands on the TTL port.
The app could become the main interface, then you have countless options for stealth mounting, data logging etc... while keeping all greatness from CA...

Is it actually possible already ?


Ahem...
The IoT Attack Vector “BlueBorne” Exposes Almost Every Connected Device
https://www.armis.com/blueborne

Money Quote:
The attack does not require the targeted device to be paired to the attacker’s device, or even to be set on discoverable mode.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:52 am

fussler wrote:Can someone tell me how to the Throttle out ramp up works?

My bike just jurks at the smallest throttle turn. 1500W leafmotor @ 25A Grin controller

Please see section "4.8 Adjust Throttle Ramping" of the Unofficial Guide.

If you have not done so already, I recommend that you review the entire section of which this is a part to ensure that your CA is set up to give the best (and proper) performance:
"4.0 Basic Installation (Install/Connect CA and Tune Throttle)".

Once you have this basic PassThru Throttle operation solid, you should look at switching to Current Throttle to more directly tie controller current to throttle rotation and so minimize the twitchy behavior you are experiencing. This is far more effective than throttle ramping alone. (More advanced controllers like Phaserunner or others with built-in torque or phase-current throttle modes should use CA PassThru Throttle mode since more sophisticated throttle control is already part of the controller...)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Bobw » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:01 am

Another Bluetooth possibility might be the use of a smartphone application to lock or disable the CA while the bike is parked. Not a total security solution but an aid in theft deterrence that could make the difference between your ebike being stolen or not.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:51 am

Bouteille51 wrote:Imagine if a future CA firmware allows it to be controlled through basic commands on the TTL port.
The app could become the main interface, then you have countless options for stealth mounting, data logging etc... while keeping all greatness from CA...

Is it actually possible already ?

Not really. A public interface was never in the cards for present incarnations of the CA.

That said, it is clear that:
  1. live data is continuously streamed from the TTL port (see: "5.11 Serial Data Port" of the Guide),
  2. the PC Setup Utility can manipulate all (actually more) settings that are available via Console Setup.
The Guide describes how to use you phone to log CA data using the standard CA programming cable (see "6.15 Logging Cycle Analyst Data with Phone or PC"). This works swimmingly and is a great means to test tuning effects on a 'standard' test road. This mechanism also provides synced GPS trip data when logged with an Analogger. As others have done, it is a straightforward programming exercise to transform this plain vanilla CSV format into a prettified phone display for monitor-only operation. The downside is the need to plug in your phone since there is no immeidate BT connectivity, but if it's on the bars in a mount anyway...

The second matter has been undertaken by others with mixed success and is described in past posts in this thread. This unfortunately utilizes a simple direct access technique for EEPROM settings and is subject to the vagaries of version changes to EEPROM variable placement and individual parameter encoding - again this was never intended to be a tidy public interface. So - phone reconfiguration is problematic largely because of the data content, not because of the connectivity which is primitively available by programming cable. See posts: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&start=765#p667193 and viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=668969#p668988.

There are some other posts in the BT vein as well - (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58950#p881173) and at one point Grin had some sample BT modules available, although I can't locate the post just now. However, as you can see above, these BT additions to the CA3 platform are 'bag on the side' hacks that only address alternate connectivity without getting to the larger issue of a stable public interface for control purposes.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:02 pm

Bobw wrote:Another Bluetooth possibility might be the use of a smartphone application to lock or disable the CA while the bike is parked. Not a total security solution but an aid in theft deterrence that could make the difference between your ebike being stolen or not.

I don't want to go OT into a discussion of the efficacity of various theft-prevention schemes, but you can presently introduce a small obstacle to grab and dash thefts by configuring your CA so that preset 1 uses throttle mode 'Disabled (ZERO)' and is configured as the default. On power-up the motor will not work until you manipulate the console buttons to hot-swap to a working preset. Since this requires a two-button press/hold operation, it's not exactly obvious and unlikely to be run across accidentally. Again - this is only a mild deterrent, but for those without more conventional theft prevention strategies in place, it may be of value.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Bouteille51 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:17 am

Not really. A public interface was never in the cards for present incarnations of the CA.

That said, it is clear that:
live data is continuously streamed from the TTL port (see: "5.11 Serial Data Port" of the Guide),
the PC Setup Utility can manipulate all (actually more) settings that are available via Console Setup.

...


Awesome ! thank you for your comprehensive answer.

The EEPROM access is a very interesting exercise... But a communication protocol with values checking (etc...) would probably be safer. Although I realize that I (almost) never use cycle analyst buttons while riding but I keep using it as a monitor device.
Thus, parsing the TTL stream should be more than enough for my needs.

I downloaded previously mentioned android application and I will give it a try. If that is satisfying as a monitoring device, I might move the CA in the removable bag (together with battery and controller) and add bluetooth connection to it. Then nothing remains on my handlebar except the throttle ! :D

Another option is to solder a db-20 male/female connector under the CA and another one on the handlebar in order to be able to remove it... probably easier for 'stealth' objective but will lack logging & GPS functionalities ;)
Last edited by Bouteille51 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
Bouteille51
10 mW
10 mW
 
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby ebike11 » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:02 am

Hi CA lovers!
Im installing a second CA3 on another motor but its a sealed mid drive motor. I have the motor already installed and functioning on the bike.
Do you think splicing the cycle analyst temperature wire onto a phase wire close to where the phase wire enters the motor would be ok? Instead of having to disassemble the whole motor etc? But id imagine the temperatures would be different but would the temp. be fairly close that way??
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