PowerVelocity controller review

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ElectricGod
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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:36 pm

Quick report on the ASI BAC 2000 vs the PV 12 fet controller...

I set the BAC2000 to the same settings as the PV 12 fet. I got an extra 1 mph with no field weakening than the PV with no field weakening. The controller overheated after about 30 minutes of use and then went into a low power mode until it cooled down. I never had that problem with the PV controller. The BAC2000 was HOT and the air temps were in the 60's F. Go figure! It ran my C80100 just fine, but I can't say it was transcendentally better that the PV controller. The one thing I can say as a positive thing about this experiment is that current draw was lower. At WOT, the PV controller will pull about 60 amps. The ASI pulled around 50 amps with similar acceleration and speeds. That was fairly compelling!

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ridethelightning » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:18 pm

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by madin88 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:12 am

Unfortunately one of the two 12F AOT290 controllers (i bought that one for a friend) did not last long :|
It shows a short between the green phase and if i connect the motor it stutters when spinning it by hand. Thus the 2 low side FET's are dead.

I don't know what settings the owner was running during that happened (smart phone app programming), but the battery had only 48V together with a 28mm DD "9C motor".
The motor was quite warm at this moment, but the controller was not much above ambient. The motor should be OK as it works well on a differnt controller on the same battery.

On those dead FETs i could not spot any signs of burn marks. It was the stock controller, not the one i soldered caps and improved the thermal path. On this one i just plugged back the BT module as it was loose when it arrived, and secured it with glue.

Now i am looking for replacement FET's, but non of my known local online stors has them in the list.
I would be greatful for any help.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:46 pm

madin88 wrote:Unfortunately one of the two 12F AOT290 controllers (i bought that one for a friend) did not last long :|
It shows a short between the green phase and if i connect the motor it stutters when spinning it by hand. Thus the 2 low side FET's are dead.

I don't know what settings the owner was running during that happened (smart phone app programming), but the battery had only 48V together with a 28mm DD "9C motor".
The motor was quite warm at this moment, but the controller was not much above ambient. The motor should be OK as it works well on a differnt controller on the same battery.

On those dead FETs i could not spot any signs of burn marks. It was the stock controller, not the one i soldered caps and improved the thermal path. On this one i just plugged back the BT module as it was loose when it arrived, and secured it with glue.

Now i am looking for replacement FET's, but non of my known local online stors has them in the list.
I would be greatful for any help.
They originally came with 4110's and I convinced Vadym to switch to the AOT290. I get them from Arrow or Digikey. I've popped the fets in a couple of controllers under what seemed like normal operating conditions. One was IRF4110's in a sinusoidal Grintech controller and the other was a PV controller and AOT290's. It happens and neither controller was over watted or pushing close to it's limits. I have never found this mosfet any place local either or they way overcharge for them. Since I'm constantly messing with the AOT290, I have probably 20+ on hand right now. Too bad you are not in the USA. I'd just sell you a couple of mine.

Digikey:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... ND/2769831

Arrow/Verical:
https://www.verical.com/pd/alpha-&-omeg ... 0l-1213352

Powervelocity.com
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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by Powervelocity.com » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:39 pm

This may happen to pretty much any mosfet due to variation in quality of mosfets, but that's an exception rather than a rule.
For that reason, I warrant all controllers against this and replace popped mosfets for no charge (unless there is a obvious sign of abuse). After replacement, this normally does not reoccur.
ElectricGod wrote:
madin88 wrote:Unfortunately one of the two 12F AOT290 controllers (i bought that one for a friend) did not last long :|
It shows a short between the green phase and if i connect the motor it stutters when spinning it by hand. Thus the 2 low side FET's are dead.

I don't know what settings the owner was running during that happened (smart phone app programming), but the battery had only 48V together with a 28mm DD "9C motor".
The motor was quite warm at this moment, but the controller was not much above ambient. The motor should be OK as it works well on a differnt controller on the same battery.

On those dead FETs i could not spot any signs of burn marks. It was the stock controller, not the one i soldered caps and improved the thermal path. On this one i just plugged back the BT module as it was loose when it arrived, and secured it with glue.

Now i am looking for replacement FET's, but non of my known local online stors has them in the list.
I would be greatful for any help.
They originally came with 4110's and I convinced Vadym to switch to the AOT290. I get them from Arrow or Digikey. I've popped the fets in a couple of controllers under what seemed like normal operating conditions. One was IRF4110's in a sinusoidal Grintech controller and the other was a PV controller and AOT290's. It happens and neither controller was over watted or pushing close to it's limits. I have never found this mosfet any place local either or they way overcharge for them. Since I'm constantly messing with the AOT290, I have probably 20+ on hand right now. Too bad you are not in the USA. I'd just sell you a couple of mine.

Digikey:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/ ... ND/2769831

Arrow/Verical:
https://www.verical.com/pd/alpha-&-omeg ... 0l-1213352

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ElectricGod
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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:08 pm

Warranty? What's that? Haha!


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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:10 pm

Powervelocity.com wrote:Yep, sorry that evaded me.
Correction: warranty for everyone except ElectricGod. Gods give warranties, they don't get ones.
ElectricGod wrote:Warranty? What's that? Haha!
I can't in honesty expect you to warranty a controller I've modded. BTW...just general information...how long to do warranty your controllers?

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by madin88 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:34 am

from digikey shipping costs above 46USD, and verical has a min order of 16pcs (40€) plus shipping i guess as it is nowhere declared.
Powervelocity.com wrote:This may happen to pretty much any mosfet due to variation in quality of mosfets, but that's an exception rather than a rule.
For that reason, I warrant all controllers against this and replace popped mosfets for no charge (unless there is a obvious sign of abuse). After replacement, this normally does not reoccur.
thats fine
how much would be shipping a few pcs if you put them in an envelope?

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:24 pm

madin88 wrote:
from digikey shipping costs above 46USD, and verical has a min order of 16pcs (40€) plus shipping i guess as it is nowhere declared.
Powervelocity.com wrote:This may happen to pretty much any mosfet due to variation in quality of mosfets, but that's an exception rather than a rule.
For that reason, I warrant all controllers against this and replace popped mosfets for no charge (unless there is a obvious sign of abuse). After replacement, this normally does not reoccur.
thats fine
how much would be shipping a few pcs if you put them in an envelope?
There has to be places that do mail order nearer to you. I googled for the part and that's how I ended up buying from Arrow and Digikey. These are fairly common mosfets...just about any online electronics supplier ought to carry them. I'd be surprised if you can't get them in Europe.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by amberwolf » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:39 pm

I haven't looked at details of any of these, but maybe
https://eu.mouser.com
http://www.farnell.com/
or some of the others here
https://www.google.com/search?num=100&n ... keU5oshRgA

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by markz » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:36 pm

I ordered from digikey.CA yesterday, and my order came today at noon!!
That is probably 2000 km
Looked on the package as to where it came from, Mississauga Ontario, so basically Toronto ON to the other side of Canada, 2800km away.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:09 pm

markz wrote:I ordered from digikey.CA yesterday, and my order came today at noon!!
That is probably 2000 km
Looked on the package as to where it came from, Mississauga Ontario, so basically Toronto ON to the other side of Canada, 2800km away.
That was quick! They must have air dropped them.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:47 am

I had someone PM me saying these controllers are good for 25000 eRPM...just clarifying...50,000 eRPM is the correct eRPM limit.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by Alan B » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:59 am

Do you know the PWM frequency they use?

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by fechter » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:12 am

Alan B wrote:Do you know the PWM frequency they use?
I measured 15.8kHz.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:03 pm

fechter wrote:
Alan B wrote:Do you know the PWM frequency they use?
I measured 15.8kHz.
Clearly there are smarter people than me here. Why did you ask about the PWM frequency?

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by Alan B » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:08 pm

I haven't had time, but I was going to look at the number of PWM pulses per eCycle which gives us some insight into what the controller is doing and how close to the eRPM limits it might be.

50K eRPM times 6 steps per eRPM gives us 300k steps/min or 5k steps/sec, which is 200 uS per step.

If each PWM pulse is in a 15.8 khz window or 63 uS it gets down to a little over 3 PWM cycles per step.

Presumably each of those PWM pulses is at a different level to rotate the field more smoothly than a straight trapezoidal waveform. To get down to one PWM pulse per step would triple the eRPM but with only a single pulse per step it would no longer be Sinusoidal.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:46 pm

Alan B wrote:I haven't had time, but I was going to look at the number of PWM pulses per eCycle which gives us some insight into what the controller is doing and how close to the eRPM limits it might be.

50K eRPM times 6 steps per eRPM gives us 300k steps/min or 5k steps/sec, which is 200 uS per step.

If each PWM pulse is in a 15.8 khz window or 63 uS it gets down to a little over 3 PWM cycles per step.

Presumably each of those PWM pulses is at a different level to rotate the field more smoothly than a straight trapezoidal waveform. To get down to one PWM pulse per step would triple the eRPM but with only a single pulse per step it would no longer be Sinusoidal.
Tis would be interesting information to have. Please post what you find out!

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by madin88 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:04 am

I found and bought the AOT290 now from Digikey with free shipping to Austria. But it needs 50€ min order so i added some CSD19506KCS FET's too for pimping BMS's (those are best ones for up to 80V recommended by LFP, only 2.0 - 2.3mOhm!).

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:02 pm

I'd like to find some TO-220 IXYS mosfets with low Rds and high wattage.

This is the best I have found...
IXFP180N10T2
480 watts is comparable to the AOT290 at 500 watts.
.006 ohms vs .0035 ohms for the AOT290...not so great.
180 amps vs 140 amps, but both are leg limited to 75 amps so pretty much a mute point.
21nS vs 31nS on time is impressive.

Is the IXYS a better mosfet than the AOT290?

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by tanstaafl » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:40 pm

ElectricGod wrote:I'd like to find some TO-220 IXYS mosfets with low Rds and high wattage.

This is the best I have found...
IXFP180N10T2
480 watts is comparable to the AOT290 at 500 watts.
.006 ohms vs .0035 ohms for the AOT290...not so great.
180 amps vs 140 amps, but both are leg limited to 75 amps so pretty much a mute point.
21nS vs 31nS on time is impressive.

Is the IXYS a better mosfet than the AOT290?
I guess it has to be a TO-220? I only see some of their better ones in other packages.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by Addy » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:19 pm

ElectricGod wrote:I'd like to find some TO-220 IXYS mosfets with low Rds and high wattage.

This is the best I have found...
IXFP180N10T2
480 watts is comparable to the AOT290 at 500 watts.
.006 ohms vs .0035 ohms for the AOT290...not so great.
180 amps vs 140 amps, but both are leg limited to 75 amps so pretty much a mute point.
21nS vs 31nS on time is impressive.

Is the IXYS a better mosfet than the AOT290?
The 500W and 480W ratings are just based on the TO-220 package so they should be very similar.

Since the RDS of 6 mOhm is nearly double the AOT290's 3.5 mOhm, it would be dissipating nearly double the power. On top of that the IXYS mosfet has worse gate charge / input capacitance specifications, so it would be harder to drive.

The IXYS mosfet would be a downgrade compared to the AOT290.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by tanstaafl » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:18 pm

Addy wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:I'd like to find some TO-220 IXYS mosfets with low Rds and high wattage.

This is the best I have found...
IXFP180N10T2
480 watts is comparable to the AOT290 at 500 watts.
.006 ohms vs .0035 ohms for the AOT290...not so great.
180 amps vs 140 amps, but both are leg limited to 75 amps so pretty much a mute point.
21nS vs 31nS on time is impressive.

Is the IXYS a better mosfet than the AOT290?
The 500W and 480W ratings are just based on the TO-220 package so they should be very similar.

Since the RDS of 6 mOhm is nearly double the AOT290's 3.5 mOhm, it would be dissipating nearly double the power. On top of that the IXYS mosfet has worse gate charge / input capacitance specifications, so it would be harder to drive.

The IXYS mosfet would be a downgrade compared to the AOT290.
I don't think I agree with you. You're trying to reduce RDS to a single value when it varies with current and temperature. And in this case, those two ratings from the data sheets have different assumptions -- the IXYS part's max is given for 50A, the AOT for 20A. Looking at the plots of RDS at various currents and temperatures for the two parts makes me think the IXYS part is actually better, but it's hard to get too confident since I've not seen the exact same conditions given. Still, it sure looks to me that the IXYS part will have a lower RDS. But I'm just guessing here.

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Re: PowerVelocity controller review

Post by ElectricGod » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:51 pm

tanstaafl wrote:
ElectricGod wrote:I'd like to find some TO-220 IXYS mosfets with low Rds and high wattage.

This is the best I have found...
IXFP180N10T2
480 watts is comparable to the AOT290 at 500 watts.
.006 ohms vs .0035 ohms for the AOT290...not so great.
180 amps vs 140 amps, but both are leg limited to 75 amps so pretty much a mute point.
21nS vs 31nS on time is impressive.

Is the IXYS a better mosfet than the AOT290?
I guess it has to be a TO-220? I only see some of their better ones in other packages.
I wan't to try some of their mosfets in a 12 or 18 fet PV controller and see how it goes.

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