Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Get real world experience and user feedback on the electric bicycle products.
HrKlev   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 313
Joined: Dec 06 2019 10:24am

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by HrKlev » Sep 22 2021 1:35am

My 2 bikes with torque sensor + ca is running fine without any problems, one with version 3.14, the other with 3.15b. So it should be possible to address? Do you mind posting all your settings (just print screen from PC), maybe someone is able to help?

Also, running the torque signal from the torque sensor directly to the throttle input, and scaling it correctly works fine. You can even wire it parallell with the throttle (you will get a bit of dead play as the scaling needs tonstart at 1.5V, though). But it sucks. Without the rpm signal to calculate power output you get less assistance the faster you pedal, as you are not able to put a lot of torque into the pedals while spinning fast.
Hubdrive as middrive, with torque sensing EMTB build: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=107622

6x6 conversion: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=109567

Dartman   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 14
Joined: Dec 17 2012 11:48am

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Dartman » Sep 24 2021 7:08am

john61ct wrote:
Sep 21 2021 1:32pm
Which devs do you think you are addressing with your suggestions?

I suspect there are more effective channels, they are likely not reading these threads.
Which channels Grin developers read? I sent email to Grin support like a month ago about power surge issue, no response what so ever. Feels like CA3 is yesterdays news and they not care anymore, electrifying wheelbarrows is more interesting.

john61ct   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7924
Joined: Dec 18 2018 2:06pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by john61ct » Sep 24 2021 11:46am

Yes I think it unlikely CA will see further development. I bet there is only one, that being Justin, and

indeed higher priorities occupy his time.

You should be able to get normal user-level support if needed, but enhancement requests might only be of interest to those working on new replacement "meta controllers"

matmat   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 16
Joined: Jul 15 2021 1:34am

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by matmat » Sep 24 2021 11:58am

john61ct wrote:
Sep 24 2021 11:46am
Yes I think it unlikely CA will see further development. I bet there is only one, that being Justin, and

indeed higher priorities occupy his time.

You should be able to get normal user-level support if needed, but enhancement requests might only be of interest to those working on new replacement "meta controllers"
Would be interesting if Grin were willing to open source the CA firmware. I could see a new wave of development stemming from that.

john61ct   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7924
Joined: Dec 18 2018 2:06pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by john61ct » Sep 24 2021 5:37pm

if wishes were fishes

I'm sure it's a nice milk cow still selling plenty, would be very unusual for any for-profit company to do that.

matmat   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 16
Joined: Jul 15 2021 1:34am

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by matmat » Sep 25 2021 2:41pm

john61ct wrote:
Sep 24 2021 5:37pm
if wishes were fishes

I'm sure it's a nice milk cow still selling plenty, would be very unusual for any for-profit company to do that.
Generally speaking, when there's no longer the desire and/or resources to develop a product internally, companies will open source some or all of it to keep development going. The companies get to keep selling hardware while the community gets to implement the features that it's interested in. Also, the risk of forever losing the work that went into the product almost disappears.

john61ct   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7924
Joined: Dec 18 2018 2:06pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by john61ct » Sep 25 2021 3:55pm

But so long as sales are good without requiring any time or effort from management...

Properly managing an active FOSS community takes a lot.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be great, in an ideal world.

Just that I think it is unlikely in this one.

Iambuilderman   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 34
Joined: Sep 01 2020 3:08pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Iambuilderman » Sep 26 2021 12:54am

Great to hear that at least you guys are willing to provide a helping hand!! I guess we will have to find some kind of work-around for the power surge issues, without dev support.

Besides the pass through open loop solution that we discussed before, what would also work in my opinion is if we could set a custom max safe voltage (saturation level) that the power control logic would be allowed to achieve for torque sensors. For example 50% or 3 volts. The handlebar throttle should be allowed to go to 100% or 4.2volts. In that way, there would be a safety net for torque control and full power available for throttle.

I will try to get a cable to hook up my ca to a pc and get some screenshots. Meanwhile, here is some additional info:

- hardware: 8+ kW ebike, 130/350 battery/phase amps, 72v 27.5Ah battery.

The behavior I am trying to get is immediate and powerful throttle response up to full power (enabling wheelies). Preferably also immediately response to torque sensor within safe max power limits (eg 50%), up to 8x human power, to get immediate ‘super human’ response to pedal input from standstill up to at least 70 km/h.

By taming gain factors (Again, Wgain), slowing down ramp up rates for pas, and using low waiting times for pas start and pas stop, I have managed to achieve somewhat sluggish although generally useable torque behavior. HOWEVER… in certain traffic situations, generally with a lot of start and stop pedaling action, the ca occasionally still slams the throttle to 100% briefly (when it thinks power should be high when it briefly was not), immediately sending my front wheel to the moon which is extremely dangerous and scary in busy traffic. It really needs some sort of safety limit (max throttle level) other than ramps rates because it clearly does not respond to that quickly enough.

I will try to focus on solutions outside the ca now, to provide a safety net. First experiment with a slower ramp up rate of the controller itself (soft throttle). Any hardware suggestions to limit the max torque sensor voltage are also welcome?

The problem should not be so hard to tackle, right?

User avatar
ZeroEm   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2043
Joined: May 03 2019 11:53am
Location: San Antonio, TX

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 26 2021 7:55am

Yes, the issue is clear now. You need to design the motorcycle Analyst for 8+ kW eMotorcycle with peddles.
ebike-85k.jpg
ebike-85k.jpg (107.58 KiB) Viewed 505 times
2019 Performer E-Trike
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

Iambuilderman   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 34
Joined: Sep 01 2020 3:08pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Iambuilderman » Sep 27 2021 6:19am

:D 8) :bigthumb: :bigthumb:

And the safety features/net will be useful for every other bike as well of course

User avatar
ZeroEm   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2043
Joined: May 03 2019 11:53am
Location: San Antonio, TX

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ZeroEm » Sep 27 2021 10:05am

There is quite a few threads about touchy throttles when you get into higher power ebikes. Don't know why you think the CA is causing this issue. Most seem to add the CA to smooth out the throttle. Using pas on a 8kw ebike, don't get that at all if you have only one gear and peddle very little. I'm sure this group is so small the market is just not worth developing for. Best make you own and we can see how that goes.
2019 Performer E-Trike
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

Ham   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 447
Joined: Feb 18 2016 3:08am

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ham » Oct 11 2021 9:22am

Has anyone here set up the CA3 with PAS using the CYC X1 pro kit?
http://www.HamsFitness.com Strength, Conditioning & Diet
http://www.zeusrides.com my builds current and past

Iambuilderman   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 34
Joined: Sep 01 2020 3:08pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Iambuilderman » Oct 12 2021 3:16pm

ZeroEm wrote:
Sep 27 2021 10:05am
There is quite a few threads about touchy throttles when you get into higher power ebikes. Don't know why you think the CA is causing this issue. Most seem to add the CA to smooth out the throttle. Using pas on a 8kw ebike, don't get that at all if you have only one gear and peddle very little. I'm sure this group is so small the market is just not worth developing for. Best make you own and we can see how that goes.
The bike is actually still a very normal looking and riding bike with 7 useable gears (60t chainwheel, 11t smallest at the rear). I can pedal with proper cadence from standstill all the way to 85 km/h. The throttle is not touchy at all; with the right settings it is very controllable from 0-8000w. Also, the torque sensor in power multiplier mode is well behaved and useful for riding along cars on the road up to legal speed limits - that is until you pause for a brief moment and the ca timeout still waits for the next input and provides a full throttle signal briefly as soon as you start pedaling again.

I am convinced that the ca power logic combined with some hard coded pass timeout setting is the problem here. The ca is a piggyback control system that should incorporate some user definable lower and upper boundaries for the ‘throttle’ output signal/voltage, that is derived from the torque * cadence calculation. It doesn’t (at least i have not found a safety setting that allows a fast initial response but also a saturation limit for the output voltage). A piggyback control system should not rely on slow hardware to dampen its responses, but should incorporate proper safety precautions.

I have ‘solved’ the problem by reverting to simple pas mode (no torque), where the sempu t4 only provides the 48 pulses pas signal. In this mode, you can select direct pas through (not power control!) AND set a saturation limit for the highest pas level, e.g. 40% throttle. This works flawlessly; you can start and stop pedaling at the highest pas level without any wheelies, and still use a thumb throttle to achieve maximum acceleration at 100% throttle. The only downside is that the torque sensor is not used at all this way, which was the whole reason i invested in the expensive ca.

So if only those saturation limits for maximum voltage output for power control mode for a torque sensor could be set in a future firmware version, than torque mode could safely be enabled again. Well, something to keep dreaming about. For now, the bike already rides very well.
Attachments
B7C4CA78-F504-455C-A5B9-B7CF6680EF33.jpeg
B7C4CA78-F504-455C-A5B9-B7CF6680EF33.jpeg (2.03 MiB) Viewed 262 times

User avatar
ZeroEm   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2043
Joined: May 03 2019 11:53am
Location: San Antonio, TX

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 12 2021 5:19pm

I get what your saying. I have only used PAS and have seen the behavior not to often. When has been off or not assisting at all and when it comes on it's at least 500% more power than set. For me it's a jerk before settling down. Think about upgrading to a torque sensor. I could find a few threads were members have been trying to adjust that behavior out of the CA.
2019 Performer E-Trike
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

izy   100 mW

100 mW
Posts: 35
Joined: Mar 02 2021 4:24pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izy » Oct 18 2021 4:40pm

so just ordered the new 3 button MF switch

but also found out the 3rd button isnt actually wired in its got seperate wiring in the sleeving

has anyone managed to wire this into the CA , i actually wanted to to use it as a toggle button for profiles etc


if not what have you used it for

User avatar
BVH   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 383
Joined: Mar 26 2009 10:59am

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by BVH » Oct 18 2021 6:48pm

BVH wrote:
Sep 19 2021 6:19pm
Does the CA V3 remaining battery capacity graphic represent empty as the cell being 100% discharged or does it represent the cell being 80% discharged or?
Found a good Li-Ion cylindrical cell pack capacity remaining v resting voltage table from an E-bike pack rebuilder.

Use the Volts Per Cell column data times number of cells in-Series to apply the table data to larger and smaller Series packs
Attachments
Ebike battery Capacity v Voltage Table.xlsx
(12.49 KiB) Downloaded 10 times

Iambuilderman   10 mW

10 mW
Posts: 34
Joined: Sep 01 2020 3:08pm

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Iambuilderman » Oct 22 2021 8:29am

izy wrote:
Oct 18 2021 4:40pm
so just ordered the new 3 button MF switch

but also found out the 3rd button isnt actually wired in its got seperate wiring in the sleeving

has anyone managed to wire this into the CA , i actually wanted to to use it as a toggle button for profiles etc


if not what have you used it for
I don’t know if this answer is really what you are looking for, but maybe it helps:

Grin tech has a pdf file that describes how to implement a digi-aux on 1 analog input signal, using a combination of resistances and schottky diodes to create different ‘regions’ of operation. Your third button could be one of those regions, similar to an analog button that would be in its fully open state.

See the pdf document named: Cycle Analyst DIY Custom Digital Aux Controls Instructional Notes

Copyright of Grin Technologies of course
Attachments
CA_DigiAux_DIYGuide_1-1a.pdf
(128.22 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

User avatar
ZeroEm   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2043
Joined: May 03 2019 11:53am
Location: San Antonio, TX

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ZeroEm » Oct 25 2021 5:47pm

Have mine plugged in with a digital switch. Had used it for 3 speed switch and changed it to 3 power levels. The digital switch is used for PAS levels. Did not need to brake out and connect any wires. Just plugged it in and allowed three settings. Which at the moment is 35%, 66% and 100%. It's been 3 yrs last time looked at the wiring. Have you plugged it in yet?
by izy » Oct 18 2021 4:40pm

so just ordered the new 3 button MF switch

but also found out the 3rd button isnt actually wired in its got seperate wiring in the sleeving

has anyone managed to wire this into the CA , i actually wanted to to use it as a toggle button for profiles etc


if not what have you used it for
2019 Performer E-Trike
2013 Nissan Leaf S 7 bars 331.5w/KM

Post Reply