Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Nov 20 2022 6:36pm

Dunlop wrote:
Nov 20 2022 5:31pm
I have a lame question (that won't help you out any) but can you describe how many e-brakes/regen systems you have active? I don't quite understand your statement about
when I brake with ebrake levers + throttle
The CA's original (pre3.2x) braking modes for variable braking work by reading your ebrake lever to turn on braking mode, which then outputs a different throttle voltage range (set in it's own field vs teh one for normal thorttle output) as the rider then manipulates the thorttle to control braking amount. This only works for controllers such as Phaserunner (and other *runners) and some Grinfineons, which accept a separate voltage range outside the normal throttle range for braking control--typically this is the range below 0.8v where a hall throttle normally never goes.

Since for me (and probably most typical bicycle riders) it's not a natural instinctive/trained reaction (necessary in emergency situations) to use a throttle to control braking amount while *also* pulling your brake lever only just enough to trigger the braking but *not* use the lever to *modulate* braking, I came up with this:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=105460
to switch to a cable-pulled throttle on that specific brake lever so the lever itself controls the amount of braking exactly like a regular brake lever would.


I don't yet know enough about the new braking modes available in 3.2x to describe any of them or their limitations yet.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Nov 20 2022 6:41pm

As I note above, I don't yet know enough about the new modes to give suggestions, but could you post your specific complete CA settings? (screenshots of the program, or attaching the saved file from it, etc) At least let us know which specific mode of regen you've chosen and the setttings in that section would probably be helpful.


SRB22 wrote:
Nov 18 2022 2:37pm
I posted a question about the CA 3.2b firmware in its own thread, but as it went mostly unnoticed I thought I'd try here where the discussion about this firmware seems to happen.

So my question: when I brake with ebrake levers + throttle, I can brake to a full stop without using the mechanical brakes (more precisely: I can brake down to 2kph, which is set as the regen brake speed minimum in my baserunner). But if I brake with backpedal regen, it suddenly stops braking around 6kph and I cannot reach a full stop - I have to use ebrakes or good ol' brakes.

I went over all the parameters in the CA setup application (and the phaserunner too, just to be sure), but I didn't see anything that looked like "packpedal regen min speed".

Did I miss something? is it a limitation for some reason? a bug?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by SRB22 » Nov 21 2022 3:07am

Dunlop wrote:
Nov 20 2022 5:31pm
I have a lame question (that won't help you out any) but can you describe how many e-brakes/regen systems you have active? I don't quite understand your statement about
when I brake with ebrake levers + throttle
If you want to know everything about regen, you should have a look at the great video Justin made about it: https://ebikes.ca/blog/post/next-level-regen.html

Then everything will be clear! :-)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by SRB22 » Nov 21 2022 3:13am

amberwolf wrote:
Nov 20 2022 6:41pm
As I note above, I don't yet know enough about the new modes to give suggestions, but could you post your specific complete CA settings? (screenshots of the program, or attaching the saved file from it, etc) At least let us know which specific mode of regen you've chosen and the setttings in that section would probably be helpful.
Attached is my settings file. This is for a bike with a 52V battery, baserunner, and Grin All-Axle hub motor (and a CA, obviously!). Tell me if you need to know more, I'm not sure what information is relevant in that case...
Attachments
ca.hex.zip
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Nov 21 2022 11:44am

Ok, based on the tooltip hints the setup program gives me for the parameters you've got set, some first thoughts. I haven't learned all the interactions in the new stuff yet, so I'll post more if I think of anything.

Backpedal regen is set to Position, and will take 6 steps (6 pole positions, meaning 6 magnets passing the sensor) before regen will reach it's max amount after it starts to engage, so you have that much control over it. It will take passing 4 magnets before it will even start this, per the engage steps setting.

Your PAS device poles says it only has 8 magnets in it, so it will take more than a full reverse revolution of the cranks (almost 1.5) to reach full regen strength.


Probably not relevant, but:

It says it's a "BB TRQ" sensor, which not being one of hte preset brands doesn't say for sure if it is capable of actually detecting pedal direction (it says it's 2-wire, so it should be, if it's setup correctly for your sensor). Also, 8 poles is very low resolution for a cadence sensor (very coarse response, slow response time, etc).

Note taht if for some reason the torque sensor you have doesn't support pedal direction detection, you can buy a separate crank-mounted PAS sensor to wire in place of the cadence portion of the torque sensor, that does do pedal direction detection and has higher resolution (faster finer response).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by SRB22 » Nov 21 2022 12:16pm

Thanks amberwolf for your thoughts.

Backpedal regen definitely works for me, so I can be sure my hardware supports it. I still have to fiddle with the number of steps, finding the sweet spot between "reacts fast" and "can be finely controlled". But it already works quite well and I like it very much.

Still, this doesn't answer my original question: why does backpedal regen stops braking when reaching 6kph, when ebrake regen is able to brake down to a full stop...

As @dunlop suggested, this might be a question only @justin_le can answer... Justin, are you around?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Nov 21 2022 2:42pm

I've been poking around since my first reply, and haven't yet found anything to tell me why there is a different lower speed limit for backpedal regen vs brakelever/throttle regen.

Looking htru the documentation for the 3.2b3 html file (attached) i found two references to a setting MaxRegenSpeed that does not actually exist anywhere else within the documentation, so I don't know how you can change this setting...but it might be the cause of the problem if it means something different than it sounds. It is associated with another term *also* only found in the same lines with it, RgnSpd.

But skimming the files, I found no references to anything that seems like it could limit the backpedal regen speed, or a note about a known bug for it.
Attachments
CA3-2b3_help.zip
(25.67 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
CA3-2b3_ReleaseNotes.zip
(13.28 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by SRB22 » Nov 21 2022 3:30pm

Thanks for the files, I'll also have a look at them :-)
amberwolf wrote:
Nov 21 2022 2:42pm
Looking htru the documentation for the 3.2b3 html file (attached) i found two references to a setting MaxRegenSpeed that does not actually exist anywhere else within the documentation, so I don't know how you can change this setting...but it might be the cause of the problem if it means something different than it sounds. It is associated with another term *also* only found in the same lines with it, RgnSpd.
3.2bX distinguishes between MaxSpeed and MaxRegenSpeed, that is between the max speed at which you can assistance and the speed where regen engages. That's one of the great new features of this version. I'm quite sure that's what is referred to in the documentation.

So there is a difference between these *max* speeds. But I couldn't find any information about the *min* speeds to be different (and cannot really imagine a use case where they should be different). So the mystery remains...

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Dunlop » Nov 27 2022 7:20pm

by SRB22 » Nov 21 2022 3:07am

If you want to know everything about regen, you should have a look at the great video Justin made about it: https://ebikes.ca/blog/post/next-level-regen.html

Then everything will be clear! :-)
That is definitely a great video!! I had started to watch that some time ago, and never returned to watch the end....
I like the set-up you are running, and will consider the ebrake/throttle method as well when I get to set mine up... BUT, what really interests me is the back-pedal method you are having problems with... That is what I think I want to use as my primary method of Regen/braking.
Have you made any progress with your issue?? I really hope you will come back and share, when you conquer it!!
Keith

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by SRB22 » Nov 28 2022 5:30am

Dunlop wrote:
Nov 27 2022 7:20pm
I like the set-up you are running, and will consider the ebrake/throttle method as well when I get to set mine up... BUT, what really interests me is the back-pedal method you are having problems with... That is what I think I want to use as my primary method of Regen/braking.
I use three regen braking modes: ebrake/throttle, backpedal and RegenSpeed via an analog aux pot. All three work great, I recommend them all. My bike is also set up to use "negative power assist levels" via digital aux, but honestly I never use it.

One interesting side effect: almost 7'000km on this bike, and still using the original brake pads!

I would recommend that you setup all methods of regen braking and see what works best for you in what situation. For instance, I tend to use backpedal much less in busy city traffic, because it is slightly less reactive, as you have to "unbrake" by pedaling forward before you can power your bike again. But when going downhill for many kilometers, as is quite common where I live, backpedal regen is a real blessing!
Dunlop wrote:
Nov 27 2022 7:20pm
Have you made any progress with your issue?? I really hope you will come back and share, when you conquer it!!
Not yet. I emailed Grin but did not get any answer yet. Of course I will post a reply here if I get any more information on the subject!

And don't let this slight problem stop you: backpedal regen is still very useful even if it does not allow to fully stop (you'll need mechanical brakes anyway!)

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