RETAILERS AS MEMBERS?

SHOULD WE ALLOW RETAILERS TO POST THEIR VIEWS ON THIS FORUM?

HI, I HAVE READ MANY POSTINGS FROM RETAILERS AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY WILL EXAGGERATE THEIR VIEWS TO FAVOR THEIR PRODUCTS. I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO SPECIFICS HERE BUT RETAILERS SHOULD REMAIN ON THE OUTSIDE, LOOKING IN.

Speedfreke said:

HI, I HAVE READ MANY POSTINGS FROM RETAILERS AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY WILL EXAGGERATE THEIR VIEWS TO FAVOR THEIR PRODUCTS. I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO SPECIFICS HERE BUT RETAILERS SHOULD REMAIN ON THE OUTSIDE, LOOKING IN.

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Any retailer with the audacity to exaggerate soon gets called out by the experts here.
Several of our most valuable contributors just happen to be in the business of selling ebikes.
They've, for the most part, done it because of their technical interests and expertise, love of ebikes or philosophy on our stewardship of this rock.
I doubt you'll find one who started because they thought they'd get fabulously wealthy.

The good ones are able to grow their ebike business by a combination of daring, solid research and capitalising on present trends while adhering to the age old value of good customer service.

A retailer or manufacturer had best have their shit together before diving in here or they'll soon have it sorted for 'em.

(i think i've just been trolled)

I'm with Zoot Katz.

Open communication is a good thing, NO, a GREAT thing. We can sort wheat from chaff. I like hearing how "people in the business" think. This may even offer an opportunity to get some of our thoughts in their heads.

I can't see how it could possibly hurt. I don't turn off TV ads because I think they exaggerate. I filter it and turn it off when it bores me (after the first time). We don't hear from these vendor people often enough.

I'm with Zoot Katz on this. Plus, it annoys me more to have to read all-caps posts than exaggerated marketing claims.

Good Lord...eliminate retailers as members? What the heck? Why would we want to take away many of the most avid and knowledgeable members from our resource? Are they guilty of thoughtcrime?

We have special prizes for suppliers who BS... we feed them their bowels, gleefully torn from between their ears.

.

Speedfreke said:

HI, I HAVE READ MANY POSTINGS FROM RETAILERS AND MY CONCLUSION IS THAT THEY WILL EXAGGERATE THEIR VIEWS TO FAVOR THEIR PRODUCTS. I'M NOT GOING TO GO INTO SPECIFICS HERE BUT RETAILERS SHOULD REMAIN ON THE OUTSIDE, LOOKING IN.

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I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOU, For all the reasons the previous posters have mentioned

Hey all;

While I understand the gentlemens point of view (the ALL CAPS GUY) I think banning or prohibiting vendors, dealers, etc would be overall negative for the community... not just due to a loss of technical know how but:

1.) As Tyler puts it - "Vendors who BS get their asses handed to them!" this means customers can in a short frame of time with a little searching weed out the bsing dealers who overrate their gear (and inversely also helps them to spot vendors who underrate)!

2.) When / if a vendor doesn't take care of business, the customer can post a complaint here... the vendor should be able to respond, again this quickly weeds out the bogus, lame, poor customer service vendors... some won't even show themselves here anymore.

3.) From a community perspective, many of these vendors (and many of the forum experts) frequently offer ES members special "first dibs" offers at really reasonable prices...

4.) Even vendors who didn't really give a poop about eBikes and were just in it for the money end up bit by the ev bug and through this forum the ignorant but not "evil" or "shady" vendors learn a great deal of technical detail and then the products they offer begin to improve.

So in short... let them all talk, there is a sesspool thread for the real trash... most of the other stuff is very helpful, I know I won't be ordering anything from Mr. White (thanks to the experts for the heads up on this leech).

In the end, vendor/dealer participation is what gets the end product quality up and the price down... if you think about it we are all a kind of alpha and beta testing team for the various vendors, distributors and manufacturers... we beat their gear up and tell the world how to push it just to the edge of it's limits (or if your Methods, ypedal, docbass, etc - far beyond those limits).

-Mike

we should ban people who use caps first.

there is no money in selling ebikes and kits. it could be decades before the business is profitable even for the guys who are totally into it and invest tons of their own cash.

even with a reasonable markup, they gotta pay for stock to sit on the shelf, and then gotta have a doofus to answer the phone and operate the shop. i feel for all the guys who have made the commitment. it is a big commitment.

then on top of it everybody here is cheaper than scrooge too.

i am glad to see yuan come over here and try to make amends for the troubles that goldenmotor got themselves into by not having a front end that could handle all the customer complaints from all the US newbies who destroy their equipment then demand a new one under warranty. that is something i could not do myself. i'd tell them to F off since they blew it up.

i see people dunning ping all the time after they destroy one of his batteries or BMS, kinda seems unfair but he just pushes his prices up to cover the mistakes of the slow learners on this side of the lake.

it would be great if he could offer a special price for those who don't wanna send it back tomorrow, after they destroy it first day. kinda like an as is price, no returns. that should knock 25% off the price.

I'm absolutely against the restriction of Retailers here, but might there be a case for getting them to put Retailer in their "title" so that the nubes can have their critical faculties aroused. Just a thought.
Edit: It could be even more unobtrusively accomplished by making them put it in their profile, so that one can look it up if you want to.

I am pro retail too.

This allows retailers to get in touch with a commuinty in order to source current trends and look for functions in goods that the consumer may be looking for.

As long as the boards are not used for false advertising its a win win situation.

Retailers can sell all they want on the for sale section.

They can get thier stuff reviewed by members on the review section, or post their own thoughts there.

They can discuss stuff all they want, any subject, on the rest of the forum. If they hit below the belt, they go to the basement with the rest of the cellar dwellers, or even get banned by the moderators.

If they are nice, but just wrong, we blow thier heads off with both barrels of buckshot just like we do any poster who is dead wrong.

Retailers or manufacturers with the stones to show up on this forum and discuss thier products have my greatest respect. Crap doesn't fly here, except back in thier faces.

Newbs that post, what about this? and post a link to thier website to gain a few hits are scum though. Never click a link from a newb. Sorry legitimate newbs, but that's just the way it is. Ask away and I'll answer my best, but leave off the links till we know you.

dnmun, you hit the nail on the head and took the words out of my mouth:

"there is no money in selling ebikes and kits. it could be decades before the business is profitable even for the guys who are totally into it and invest tons of their own cash."

Very perceptive. The profit on lithium packs is next to nothing. You make a few bucks on motors but you would have to sell thousands to make any real money. Not many people are buying ebikes in the USA yet.

"even with a reasonable markup, they gotta pay for stock to sit on the shelf, and then gotta have a doofus to answer the phone and operate the shop. i feel for all the guys who have made the commitment. it is a big commitment."

Correct again. It will be years before this is a viable industry and many companies won't survive. You either have to have a ton of cash reserves or sell other products and services to pay the bills. To be profitable, there has to be more public awareness and gas prices have to go up.

"then on top of it everybody here is cheaper than scrooge too."

So true! I'm glad you said it first Not only the cheapest, but the most demanding. Want everything for nothing. Unreasonable demands and threatening to write bad reviews. Sorry guys, I'm keeping it real. But don't get me wrong, most people on here are great, they just don't have much money. Other than close-outs or give away deals, I don't even post in the for sale section anymore. This is a place for technical discussion, not so much a place to sell and I am very happy with that. I offer advice to people and contribute. If people figure out you are one of the experts they will favor your company when they do get around to a purchase. I realize times are tough, I understand. That's why we offer a discount to the unemployed.

Ironically, the cheapest customers are so-called "Green" people, environmentalists, electric vehicle enthusiasts and the like. You would think they would want to support a local green business, especially if they are wealthy. Nope. The best customers are those who know nothing, they have a need and appreciate a good product that fills it.

"i see people dunning ping all the time after they destroy one of his batteries or BMS, kinda seems unfair but he just pushes his prices up to cover the mistakes of the slow learners on this side of the lake."

Yes, people damage things and want to return it. Also some people like to buy things just to try it out or use it for awhile knowing they will return it like they do at Walmart.

One must believe in the cause to put up with the BS. You have to be in this business for the long haul, not a quick buck. Your comments are appreciated.

As far as retailers posting here...Yes, I am a retailer, also an ebike designer, manufacturer, and distributor. I have been in the business for five years and have been to China six times going to trade shows and inspecting factories. I have been an electronics engineer for 20+ years and plan to submit several electronic circuits soon which will be public domain. You don't want to hear what I have to say? You don't want to know what new products are available? You don't want to know how to fix anything? I'm sure a few companies think of forums as a new internet marketing tool. Once in awhile someone new shows up, like you for example, and makes outlandish statements or claims. They will be called out quickly by the knowledgable members. You are underestimating the smarts of the people on here. If you are really concerned, check the poster's date of joining, if it's 6 mo or longer, that means they have run the gauntlet and have survived. Also check for reviews of their products by other members. Yes, some new companies are big on the marketing and short on the technical expertise, but that will become evident eventually.

HTB_Terry said:

Not only the cheapest, but the most demanding. Want everything for nothing. Unreasonable demands and threatening to write bad reviews.

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...And then suggest that maybe you should not be allowed here.

Guilty on all counts Terry, I'm cheap as hell, demanding as hell, and will tell the world all about it. Stupidly I got into ebikes trying to save money, but now I just get even cheaper trying to support the dang habit.

I'll stick with my original statement. Yes e-biking is a relatively new phenomenon and people are starved for informtion that's why many members cling to every word that comes from a retailers post but if you can honestly believe that no one has ever been misled there's some naivety here.
How many times have you read "great news, there's now a fix for that" and you have to keep dishing out wads of cash for the fix.
I've read many posts of people continuosly refining their set-up because what they got sold was actually not a 'polished' product but something closer to 'experimental'.
On the moral side, if a group can't be free to discuss a product without the seller's input then the forum lacks 'maturity'.
But I know that there are brilliant people contributing to the forum but they MUST differentiate between what they know and what was contributed by a retailler so our knowledge base can expand independently of 'vested interests'.
Since this forum is composed of members, and most disagree with my statements, at the very least, when a retailler posts a reply members should be clearly informed.

Speedfreke said:

I'll stick with my original statement. Yes e-biking is a relatively new phenomenon and people are starved for informtion that's why many members cling to every word that comes from a retailers post but if you can honestly believe that no one has ever been misled there's some naivety here.
How many times have you read "great news, there's now a fix for that" and you have to keep dishing out wads of cash for the fix.
I've read many posts of people continuosly refining their set-up because what they got sold was actually not a 'polished' product but something closer to 'experimental'.
On the moral side, if a group can't be free to discuss a product without the seller's input then the forum lacks 'maturity'.
But I know that there are brilliant people contributing to the forum but they MUST differentiate between what they know and what was contributed by a retailler so our knowledge base can expand independently of 'vested interests'.
Since this forum is composed of members, and most disagree with my statements, at the very least, when a retailler posts a reply members should be clearly informed.

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i have seen no evidence of that happening here.

jason got totally pissed at danny ray for slandering him on other spots, but that never happened on the sphere.

the only retailer who continued to make absurd claims about his product no longer comes around here any more because he was so thouroughly exposed. in fact one of our fav guys, jozzer, no longer hangs here because of the massive hostility to what don claimed for his new batch of cells.

not sure where you got this perspective, but i really appreciate having them around and try to support them as best i can. they are not our enemy, the cars on the street are our enemy, along with the free energy that got us here.

dnmun, 4 years ago I bought my 408 hub. Before that time to the present I have read many, many ebike articles and forums. I never got the impression that retailers get extra scrutiny. If they do on this forum then I salute Endless-sphere.

It wouldnt be fair to disclude retailers because of a few members, just look at the magic pie thread, goldenmotors (member) he got through all the flamers and has managed to do some good representation of the product. The pie will be reviewed by ES peers regardless of whether or not GM advertised it here or not. If the Pie doesnt match up to its claims then bigger fool GM. Allowing retailers does give a chance for retailers to show their true colours, honesty and helps evolve the community as to what is available. GM is not a new company but what if a new upstart company designed a new bike, hub, or controller, with the best specs ever, would ES members want it to go to another board first?

Closed minded approaches to any sharing of information on new products will only lead ES into the dark. Being open to input is cutting edge, closing doors is devolution.

Ya, that's what we need more censorship . It would be a shame to disallow anyone. I'm sure that Plato would be spinning in his grave. A forum means a place for open discussion for all. This is a forum not a private club. That's just my two cents worth. But in my opinion the suggestion that anyone is excluded is ridiculous. Who would be excluded next...

Sure, you can mix the foxes with the chickens and the sharks with the smallfry but who is going to come out ahead,
Plato: "An unexamined life is not worth living"
Retailer's motto- ABC Always Be Closing . Notice it doesn't say anything about customer satisfaction.

You've not read accounts of various battery sellers being raked over the coals when they come in spouting specifications too good to be true?
What's that Brett White guy doin' these days?

Conversely the good dealers don't have to tout their products or service here. Satisfied customers do it for them.
When somebody mentions Morgan, Jason, Terry, Justin and others it's because they have involved themselves here.
They've helped innumerable people with questions ranging from simple to technical. They don't just make product recommendations for their wares.

John Rob Holmes builds fine wheels for a reasonable price.
Rather than tell me to cough up for one of his wheels, he freely advised me how to obtain the best results lacing it myself.
His track record is impeccable but he answered my questioning his recommendations with solid information based on the experience of someone who has built more hub motors than I ever will.

The good dealers share their ebike adventures. They walk the talk.

As far as being cheaper than dirt, I pay full retail without ever attempting to negotiate a bro-deal at my LBS. (ebikes.ca)
I'd talked, ridden and drunk with Justin and mutual friends for a couple years before I became a customer. (they didn't have a shop then)

What I get is better than bargains. Like when my controller, still under warranty, quit working. Justin didn't have a replacement for that model in stock so gave me an upgrade. I bought the dead controller for its scrap value. Or the night we were riding back from Burnaby and my rear tire blew. It was raining but we were only about 8 blocks from the shop. Mark carried my batteries, Adam doubled me on his Xtracycle, Justin and Zev took turns ghost riding my bike back to the shop where there was cold beer and four people to help change the rear wheel on a Xtracycle.
Zev gave me a good take-off tire from a demonstration bike. I offered to pay for it but was declined by Justin.

The Schwalbe Marathon Plus was a noticeable improvement over the old tires so I went back a couple days later to see if I could buy another one.
Alison went into a back room and came out with a RMA take-off or demo-bike tire. "Here, take this one." she said.*

Knowing my financial situation, Justin suggested cheaper batteries bought elsewhere until I pointed out that they weren't as near to satisfying my requirements as his more expensive pack.
I'm slightly obsessed with bikes so have no qualms about tightening my belt in order to get a product that's not going to cause me "buyers remorse".

It's usually the service for which I pay a premium up-front. With a reputable dealer that's what you get when you need it.
Dealers are free to make or break their reputations here.


*I later reciprocated with some craft item gifts of a related nature and the retail value of a new tire in order to keep the karma sheet balanced and express my appreciation.

HTB_Terry said:

The best customers are those who know nothing, they have a need and appreciate a good product that fills it.

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That attitude has worked wonders for the US auto makers.

Knowledgeable, discriminating consumers ensure that suppliers compete to deliver value.