Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 13 2013 10:41pm

Kepler wrote:Yes I figured it would be a memory issue holding back on making FastRamp preset-specific. I actually find FastRamp a more important setting to be preset-specific then UpRamp because it is constantly in play when riding while on and off the throttle. UpRamp is important also but comes into play less because it only comes into play from a dead stop.
The intention of FastRamp is to find a quick way for the throttle output to 'catch up' to whatever voltage starts having an effect on the controller, and then once it detects that it is having an effect (presently seeing if the current is >2.5 amps) then it switches to the slower UpRamp rate so that the actual engagement of motor power is moderated. In general you would want the fast ramp to be dialed in to quickly span through the 'dead zone' but not to overshoot with much kick once it hits the point where it has an effect. I don't see why you would want that different from one preset to the next?

Once the CA has figured out that the throttle output is engaging the controller, then UpRamp takes over and controls how fast your feel the power kick in, and this makes sense to have preset specific depending on sensitive or dampened you want a particular mode. Is that how you are using it or did you have some other understanding?
The CA3 is so feature rich and I use just about every feature available on my setups. However, if memory does need to be free'd up to improve some of the functionality, personally I could live without the multiple battery profiles or perhaps just 2 battery preset profiles.
Going back to 2 battery profiles instead of 3 would free up TONS of space. The CA is keeping track of the total amp hours, life cycles, internal resistances not to mention the cell count, chemistry, LVC, for each pack, and that adds up to a lot of bytes. I guess there aren't that many people who swap around between 3 different batteries, but to have 2 packs is pretty common and something I definitely want to keep.

In a quick informal poll here, are there any other users who make use of 3 different battery profiles, or would the general consensus be that it's OK to drop it back to two and then have more room for mode preset parameters?

-Justin
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 13 2013 10:58pm

Two would probably cut it for most people...but it would be nice to have 3 available for certain things; primarily experimental use deploying the same CA on multiple bikes, or testing out multiple packs on the same bike.

However, it's not that hard to manually take care of this for such purposes, vs daily shifting between two packs on one bike (like one on charger while one is in use, for instance, or one for long runs and a lighter smaller one for quick trips or partial bus/train commutes).

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Apr 14 2013 2:02am

i too could live with only 2 presets for battery packs.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Apr 14 2013 3:16am

justin_le wrote:
The intention of FastRamp is to find a quick way for the throttle output to 'catch up' to whatever voltage starts having an effect on the controller, and then once it detects that it is having an effect (presently seeing if the current is >2.5 amps) then it switches to the slower UpRamp rate so that the actual engagement of motor power is moderated. In general you would want the fast ramp to be dialed in to quickly span through the 'dead zone' but not to overshoot with much kick once it hits the point where it has an effect. I don't see why you would want that different from one preset to the next?

Once the CA has figured out that the throttle output is engaging the controller, then UpRamp takes over and controls how fast your feel the power kick in, and this makes sense to have preset specific depending on sensitive or dampened you want a particular mode. Is that how you are using it or did you have some other understanding?

-Justin
With the Fighter when riding off road, I like nice quick throttle response. The default settings are quite good for this and has the feel I am looking for. However, I also want to be able to run 250W road legal and 750W with RPM PAS on this bike. What I was finding was that there was appriciatable overshoot at the default global fast ramp setting. Raising the Fast ramp effectively smoothed out the overshoot but made the Offroad profile sluggish.

However, your explanation got me thinking that perhaps I can tune this out with the available adjustments. Good news is that i managed to sort it out. Basically I tuned the 250W profile first and ended up with a setting of 1.5 Sec/Vlt on the FastRamp and 2 Sec/Vlt on the UpRamp.

With the off-road profile, I set the UpRamp at 0.3 Sec/Vlt. This seemed to take FastRamp out of the equation. Throttle is a bit on the touchy side now but I can live with that if I need too.

Hope all that makes sense. :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Sebbo » Apr 14 2013 6:28am

teklektik wrote: All builds will have different configuration, but to give you a notion of V3 settings for another 2WD bike,
My bike: 66v, 2 BMC v2S gear motors, 2 Lyen 12FETs configured for 36A rated/74A phase, block time=0.1
IntSGain = 15
PSGain = 0.16V/mph
DSGain = 30
upramp = 2.5
downramp=0.05
fastramp=2.0
Ok, I have the new controller is now in operation. Work very well.

Now I have set the configuration of you. So I'm now first for a test drive. But what I have noticed. When I turn on the CA, the first speed limit is ignored. If the speed limit is exceeded then everything seems to fit. I will now see.

The reed is to blame for the high top speed. Vibration at the front wheel. On the stand, nothing happens.

I will test it now on the road.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Apr 14 2013 6:53am

I will only ever use 1 battery profile, 2 would be a stretch. 3 would be a waste considering it could free up space for other options.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rscamp » Apr 14 2013 7:00am

Diamondback wrote:i too could live with only 2 presets for battery packs.
Ditto for me. Might use two batteries. Could picture a scenario for using three but it's a long shot. In contrast, I'm using the three setups for power, speed limits, etc. already...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 14 2013 8:44am

Sebbo wrote:Now I have set the configuration of you. So I'm now first for a test drive.
This may work, but you should try the setup procedure. I listed my settings only so you would have a general idea of what the values might be - which is fairly small compared to the available range of values. Anyhow - hope your test ride goes well.

Also - remember that with a single spoke magnet, operation will not be good at low speeds and you may need to set SLim->StrtSpeed to 8-9kph. An alternative is to add some spoke magnets. Three or four magnets allow the CA to detect/respond more quickly to speed changes which will help minimize overshoot. I use three in a 26" wheel and have been successful leaving SLim->StrtSpeed at zero.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Sebbo » Apr 14 2013 4:23pm

Good tip. I'll have another magnet on my 20 "glued rim. :idea:

But the 25kmh limit I have not managed correctly. Quite apart from the pedal sensor. With him, it does not work properly ...

Tomorrow I will continue to test ...


I need one battery profile. for info... :D

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 15 2013 5:43am

2 battery packs is the max for me as well.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by bspalteh » Apr 15 2013 6:55pm

Agree that two battery profiles is enough, but the various other preset modes could definitely all be used up.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 16 2013 6:59am

Diamondback wrote:i too could live with only 2 presets for battery packs.
OK everyone and thanks for the input, the voices have been heard! We're back down to just batteries A&B now, and space has been freed up for more preset stuff. Right now, this really has to be the last "preliminary" V3 firmware though. Here are some of the updates:

First, there are now two no-throttle modes. Previously, if the input throttle was set to OFF, then the CA's output would go to full WOT mode, and this way the CA3 could be used as a legacy CA2 throttle over-ride mode. However, there are also cases where you want to disable the throttle, but not have the output go high by default, and that can be done by setting the mode Off ( 0V ). If this mode is enabled in one of the presets, then the throttle input of the CA is completely ignored.
CA Off 0V.jpg
CA Off 0V.jpg (11.42 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
CA Off WOT.jpg
CA Off WOT.jpg (11.47 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
Some of the other setup menu items were changed to more natural units. So for instance, in the preferences -> averaging menu, it now shows the display averaging period in seconds rather than in an arbitrary number of 1-7.
CA Averaging.jpg
CA Averaging.jpg (10.71 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
Similarly, the threshold speeds for when the pedal cadence sensor is considered engaged and disengaged is now expressed directly in RPM, rather than in time period units of 18mS:
CA PAS Thresh RPM.jpg
CA PAS Thresh RPM.jpg (11.64 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
The behaviour of both the torque and auto PAS modes has been tweaked as well. The torque mode now always averages over the last two full pedal rotations, instead of just 1, which seems to improve the smoothness just fine without causing much penalty in responsiveness. It is also now set up to scale based on your watts rather than your Nm of pedal torque, which is more intuitive. So you input the scale factor of how many electrical watts you want for every human watt of power:
CA Assist Factor.jpg
CA Assist Factor.jpg (12.11 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
And you also set the threshold human watts that you want to put out before the electric starts to help:
CA Threshold Human Power.jpg
CA Threshold Human Power.jpg (13.38 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
If the auto-PAS mode is selected, you can now set the level of watts that you want to have kick in automatically while pedaling, it no longer defaults to full throttle output.
CA Auto PAS.jpg
CA Auto PAS.jpg (12.48 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
CA PAS Watts.jpg
CA PAS Watts.jpg (12.63 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
The PAS watts that you set here can also be scaled by the auxilliary input via the "PAS Level" option. So you can dial in a nice background assist value and then have the throttle at your disposal for extra juice whenever required. For the last few days I've been riding with a 3 speed switch connected to the Aux input, set to give a PAS power level of 250, 500, and 750 watts. Then my throttle gives about 1200W. I've almost been preferring this arrangement over the proportional torque mode.

On the throttle ramping rates, the down ramp rate is now also tied to each preset like the up ramp. And with the fast ramp you can now set the threshold amps where the CA switches over from the fast rate to the (presumably slower) Up Ramp rate, allowing you to tweak this to suit the ramp-up current draw of your motor:
CA Fast Ramp Thresh.jpg
CA Fast Ramp Thresh.jpg (11.76 KiB) Viewed 4211 times
Other changes:
  • Temperature reading is now averaged to be a lot more stable
  • 10K NTC thermistor lookup table updated to 32 reference points for better accuracy, especially at high temps.
  • Additional name options (including no name) given for each mode preset
  • MaxThrotSpeed for PAS modes is now tied to each preset, rather than being a global setting
  • Timing issues fixed that could cause occasional "T_Err" under some special circumstances
  • Bug fix that could cause voltage and amperage display to briefly show wild numbers after going through setup and running a zero amps process
I hope this addresses just about all of the outstanding little details that were in want of tweaking. I'm going to give the firmware to Teklektik for a couple days since he has a knack for finding bugs or quirks that I may have overlooked, and then will make it available here and then in all the CA3s going out the door!
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by John in CR » Apr 16 2013 9:52am

Great, now that V3 is pretty much set in stone, can you squeeze in a few minutes to add an inclinometer to the mix. I can see anti-flip and wheelie control ending up as more popular options than all the other tweaks put together. Plus it adds another must have product too. Sure I'd like to have a Thun, but an inclinometer becomes an instant must have. :mrgreen:

John

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by grindz145 » Apr 16 2013 10:20am

John in CR wrote:Great, now that V3 is pretty much set in stone, can you squeeze in a few minutes to add an inclinometer to the mix. I can see anti-flip and wheelie control ending up as more popular options than all the other tweaks put together. Plus it adds another must have product too. Sure I'd like to have a Thun, but an inclinometer becomes an instant must have. :mrgreen:

John
I think the only good way to do this is with a really precise gyroscope. It would not be trivial to implement. I think it's a sweet idea though.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rscamp » Apr 16 2013 11:20am

Good stuff!

I'm guessing nothing has changed though with regard to making the CA to register zero more quickly on the speedo after coming to a stop. This would primarily be of interest to those running sensorless motors trying to obey stop signs... ;)
Rob
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by John in CR » Apr 16 2013 12:25pm

grindz145 wrote:
John in CR wrote:Great, now that V3 is pretty much set in stone, can you squeeze in a few minutes to add an inclinometer to the mix. I can see anti-flip and wheelie control ending up as more popular options than all the other tweaks put together. Plus it adds another must have product too. Sure I'd like to have a Thun, but an inclinometer becomes an instant must have. :mrgreen:

John
I think the only good way to do this is with a really precise gyroscope. It would not be trivial to implement. I think it's a sweet idea though.
Oh contraire mon ami. You greatly underestimate the genius of our leader. Not only is it a relatively simple matter for him, but he's has already done it with self balancing single wheel EVs (electric one wheel skateboards and unicycles) where the rider is responsible for left/right balance. He even had/has plans to implement an inclinometer with the CA3 to limit current on long ascents, though the thermal limiting function displayed in his hubmotor cooling tests probably supersedes implementing an inclinometer.

Imagine, just set the maximum angle you want to allow and power wheelie like a pro with no worries about landing on your back as long as you don't exceed the point of balance with 0 motor output.

We're talking about the kind of feature that easily doubles or triples sales of the CA3 as word spreads. :mrgreen:

John

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Re: AW: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Apr 16 2013 1:15pm

I wish I could wheelie my bike at all :-)
Launch is quite lame even at 3500W in a 3540 in a 20" rim. But as soon as there is a wheelie automatic I will surly do anything to be able to wheelie!!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by grindz145 » Apr 16 2013 1:25pm

John in CR wrote: Oh contraire mon ami. You greatly underestimate the genius of our leader. Not only is it a relatively simple matter for him, but he's has already done it with self balancing single wheel EVs
More power to him. I'm just thinking about how it's used in traction control on a GP bike. The more features the merrier.

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Re: AW: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by John in CR » Apr 16 2013 1:53pm

izeman wrote:I wish I could wheelie my bike at all :-)
Launch is quite lame even at 3500W in a 3540 in a 20" rim. But as soon as there is a wheelie automatic I will surly do anything to be able to wheelie!!
With the high and rear CG and short wheelbase, for a wheelie all you have to do is push on the pedal and pull up slightly on the handlebars. For the motor not to easily do it you have a problem.

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Re: AW: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Apr 16 2013 2:34pm

John in CR wrote:
izeman wrote:I wish I could wheelie my bike at all :-)
Launch is quite lame even at 3500W in a 3540 in a 20" rim. But as soon as there is a wheelie automatic I will surly do anything to be able to wheelie!!
With the high and rear CG and short wheelbase, for a wheelie all you have to do is push on the pedal and pull up slightly on the handlebars. For the motor not to easily do it you have a problem.
aehhhmmm .. i got a LONGER wheelbase and a 13kg/28lbs battery at the handlebars. this would need A LOT of power to lift it :) not an ideal prerequisite.

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Re: AW: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by John in CR » Apr 16 2013 7:31pm

izeman wrote:
John in CR wrote:
izeman wrote:I wish I could wheelie my bike at all :-)
Launch is quite lame even at 3500W in a 3540 in a 20" rim. But as soon as there is a wheelie automatic I will surly do anything to be able to wheelie!!
With the high and rear CG and short wheelbase, for a wheelie all you have to do is push on the pedal and pull up slightly on the handlebars. For the motor not to easily do it you have a problem.
aehhhmmm .. i got a LONGER wheelbase and a 13kg/28lbs battery at the handlebars. this would need A LOT of power to lift it :) not an ideal prerequisite.
That's not ebikes I see in your signature, but even so a lot of power is the easy part, especially with the CA3's torque throttle.

Anti-flip and power wheelie control is something I discussed with Justin back in October, and I was told it would be simple to add, so I thought it was a good time to put it on the table. It's something needed for this summer, and it's mid April already.

John

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Apr 16 2013 7:57pm

Some great new features to look forward too.

The wheelie control would be so cool. I could pretend I was a skilled rider then. :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by 2handy » Apr 17 2013 1:28am

In my opinion the possibility of an anti-wheelie CA3 ability looks like a great way to attract attention.

Which in the end could very likely cause the imposition of more stringent policing of ebikes here in Oz & elsewhere else.

So for that reason only, I don't think that it is a great idea.

I'd much rather be in sheep's clothing & slip by unnoticed, than have every policeman looking at me as an easy target for an on the spot fine (at least) with their newly acquired knowledge which was acquired due to new policy that was instigated due to the very obvious antics of egotists doing wheelies to impress the girls or whoever else.

Yes, I too would like to do "safe" wheelies, but not at the expense of not being able to ride my bike because it has become easy to identify as illegal & any highway patrol cop can simply test whether it is legal or not. We need to stay as invisible as possible for as long as possible, for lots of reasons.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Apr 17 2013 2:14am

justin_le wrote:
I hope this addresses just about all of the outstanding little details that were in want of tweaking. I'm going to give the firmware to Teklektik for a couple days since he has a knack for finding bugs or quirks that I may have overlooked, and then will make it available here and then in all the CA3s going out the door!
Justin,

Do the latest changes solve this issue?
IMG_2083.JPG
IMG_2083.JPG (206.33 KiB) Viewed 4684 times
With Torque PAS, current adjustment, and temp control activated, this is a regular occurrence. I do want to be be able run all these features together. Not sure if my HV setup is compounding the problem though so I might be a special case.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 17 2013 6:07am

Kepler wrote:Do the latest changes solve this issue?
Yep. :D
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