Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Apr 13 2015 1:33pm

Wow circuit breaker...what a fantastic idea! Thanks for that.

Do you know if the same breaker will handle 48 volts?

Can you point me out to the thread where this idea was discussed?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mfinca » Apr 13 2015 11:41pm

If you look at the picture the breaker says right on the side of it maximum voltage 80v.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 14 2015 2:00am

Green machine
Regarding your earlier question about the CA powering on/off the controller.
I tried to answer 3 times before, but gave up and deleted, as the replies all sounded too rude and condescending to you. Your question shows you are new to this, electronics and the original design principles behind the CA.

It is really a monitor unit with some limited control function, it has wires to power and monitor, with only one single wire out of the 6 on the DP plug sending or overriding throttle, depending on CA version or setup.

In a more everyday context, your question is rather like asking why your home TV can't control (power on/off) an individual TV camera at the local cable TV station. You have a wired connection but it is all one way. Like with a Skybox, also connected to a phone line, you can send basic feedback but that is it. No matter what firmware you flashed the TV or Skybox with, it will never be able to have major control function of the TV station without a completely new design of the system.

CA started life as a voltags/current power monitor, to fit to any existing controller. Rather like fitting a performance monitor for manifold pressure, fuel flow , speed etc to a car. It may be able to regulate throttle or fuel flow a bit, but it won't be able to start /stop the engine or change gear.
Last edited by NeilP on Apr 15 2015 5:11am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by dunja » Apr 14 2015 2:16pm

Hi,

I had the problem with the bootloader that the CA3 sometimes boots into a black screen with backlight on (about 50%). Now I have successfully installed the Patch for CA3 Boot Issue http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 56#p926356
set the count to "1" (if I remember correct it was "0" before i changed the value) and confirmed it. After bootloader update success message my CA3 always boots into the boot issue (Blank screen with backlight on). And even worse, because it does not boot anymore, I cannot undo the changes or try different setting values like "2" or "3" because the firmware update tool cannot find the CA3 anymore. therefore I also was not able to do step 5. (reflash CA3_Prelim6_NoEeprom)

Please help!

Thanks.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Apr 15 2015 4:02am

It doesn't need to boot completely to be flash able imho. It will start flashing as it is connected.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 15 2015 6:04am

dunja wrote:Hi,

I had the problem with the bootloader that the CA3 sometimes boots into a black screen with backlight on (about 50%). Now I have successfully installed the Patch for CA3 Boot Issue http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 56#p926356
set the count to "1" (if I remember correct it was "0" before i changed the value) and confirmed it. After bootloader update success message my CA3 always boots into the boot issue (Blank screen with backlight on).

Thanks.
Hi Dunja, this is a bit of a worse case situation, fortunately also very rare! Try powering it up at some different voltages or even at different temperatures etc. a whole bunch of times and if you are able to get the main screen to show up at least once, then change the count to "2" and in all likelyhood it will be fine then. But if it simply never gets out of the bootloading freeze at this point then send us an email and we'll swap the device for you.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 15 2015 6:27am

Green Machine wrote: Is it possible to add it later with a firmware update?
There is no way that the Cycle Analyst can "turn off" your motor controller. Your thinking is ass backwards here, as the CA is powered up from the motor controller, it would be the controller's responsibility to turn the CA off, not the other way around.
I think that DIY ebikes do not have an easy soluiion for an ebike on and off switch really elaborates how backwards we are in the technology game.... i guess just waiting for china to provide one. The problem is most DIY controllers (lyen, cellman) dont have an on and off switch or an easy way to connect one...
That is a completely rubbish statement. Every single ebike motor controller PCB that I have ever looked at going back over 10 years has the pads for an on/off switch designed right into the circuitboard. In the infineon style controllers used by Lyen and Cellman, this is usually on a pad labelled VK or something similar. If Lyen and Cellman have opted to short this pad directly to V+ inside the housing rather than bringing it out to an external switch, or a connector to which a user can install a switch, then that was their call not to offer you access to the feature. China already provided it.

The people who actually designed the controller did everything possible to provide an easy solution for the ebike on/off switch, and in a way that does not require switching the full battery current as putting a massive switch inline with your battery pack. If you open your controller, remove this wire jumper connecting the battery V+ to the control circuit V+, and replace it with a wire going to an on/off switch, then both the controller and CA will turn on and off together all at the flip of a simple low current switch. Easy peasy.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 15 2015 6:43am

NeilP wrote:I tried to answer 3 times before, but gave up and deleted, as the replies all sounded too rude and condescending to you.
Thanks Neil for the much more diplomatic reply and excellent analogies, I saw this only after I had fired mine off. Green Machines isn't new to ebikes or ebike tech and electronics at all, so I was a bit surprised by this particular post of his. Hopefully it is all clarified now, and he'll soon be enjoying his ebike with a conveniently accessible on/off switch that simultaneously turns off both the Controller and CA, without a pet peeve in the way.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by panurge » Apr 16 2015 3:57am

With my DIY RC bike I use to enter the CA setup for momentary parking purposes, My RC controller (with a shunt and a pigtail cable soldered to P&P the CA), unlike E-bike controllers, hasn't any switch pad on its board. ENtering the setup mode, disable the throttle 'cause in fact leads to a transmitter signal loss detected by the ESC....it does not turn off the ESC nor the CA, but let the bike to be safe when is parked, and let me avoid to unplug the main leads for short times. A circuit braker or contactor although safe and reliable in principle, is anyway a possible weak point....especially on high powered bikes with non e-bike escs.
I noticed a lot of problems due to switch fails on normal e-bikes too. I know some well known Ebike brands, using china key switches, recalled some bikes to fix that....
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MrDude_1 » Apr 16 2015 8:27am

Ive been reading this thread since it started posted... It only took me until NOW to order the damn thing. :mrgreen:

Cant wait for it to get here... :lol:
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Apr 17 2015 2:36am

NeilP wrote:Green machine
Regarding your earlier question about the CA powering on/off the controller.
I tried to answer 3 times before, but gave up and deleted, as the replies all sounded too rude and condescending to you. Your question shows you are new to this, electronics and the original design principles behind the CA.

It is really a monitor unit with some limited control function, it has wires to power and monitor, with only one single wire out of the 6 on the DP plug sending or overriding throttle, depending on CA version or setup.

In a more everyday context, your question is rather like asking why your home TV can't control (power on/off) an individual TV camera at the local cable TV station. You have a wired connection but it is all one way. Like with a Skybox, also connected to a phone line, you can send basic feedback but that is it. No matter what firmware you flashed the TV or Skybox with, it will never be able to have major control function of the TV station without a completely new design of the system.

CA started life as a voltags/current power monitor, to fit to any existing controller. Rather like fitting a performance monitor for manifold pressure, fuel flow , speed etc to a car. It may be able to regulate throttle or fuel flow a bit, but it won't be able to start /stop the engine or change gear.

Yeah i get how it started... I was here way back then...i use to ask justin why the cycle analyst didnt have a temparutre probe..it was the very first conversations i had wiht him and now we are friends......but now its 2015 and if the v3 is able to dial back throttle and evenually shut off power entirely as temperature gets too hot...why cant it cut power on and off when a little red button installed on the front is pushed. I bet you for sure Justin could figure out a way to incoporate an on and off switch if he wanted to the same way a home reviever these days can power off the tv.... the cycle analyst is right in the middle of the battery and the controller. It could use a simple fuse...or it could speak to the controller through the DP...so it will require a little less wiring if the builder wants an on off switch. There could be one extra button on the CA....Isnt that the perfect place for an on and off switch? And isnt the CA wired inbetween the battery and controller in perfect position to turn on and off power?

I just saying its 2015 and the vast majority of DIY ebikers i know are still turning there bikes on and off by plugging togeteher the connector from the battery to the connector on the bike.... wher as 100 percent of commercial ebikes i have ridden all have really sweet on off swtiches.

Sorry for sounding like a newbie...and asking for such ridiculous stuff.

But i think its absolutely ridiculous that the biggest suplliers in the DIY ev industry have decided that an on/off switch is a newbie thing to ask for. An on/off swtich is a safety feature that most DIY bikes lack. I agree it should be up to the controller companies to provide....but the biggest suppliers of controllers in the DIY industry cellman and lyen have both decided not to pay the few extra dollars to provide a simple on/off toggle.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 17 2015 2:51am

Green Machine wrote:the cycle analyst is right in the middle of the battery and the controller.
But...it isn't.

If you have an SA model, then the shunt of the CA (not part of the CA itself) is between them, yes.

But if you have a DP model, no part of the CA is between them--controller is directly connected to the battery (unless you have it wired thru something else).



Sure, it would be possible to take something like one of the various automatic precharge / switch units that have been developed here on ES, or a similar device, and pot that in with the SA version's shunt, then run extra wires to the CA to have it control the power out of the shunt into the controller.

Or, add a control FET to the CA itself, that can switch the high voltage on the "keyswitch / ignition" wire on the typical ebike controller.


FWIW the CA does not presently (or ever has) actually control / shut off power to the controller. It just controls the throttle signal (and/or the ebrake), AFAIK. "shutting off power" at present only means it turns throttle to zero and/or engages the ebrake signal to on.


BTW, both my Grin controllers have a switch on them, which disconnects the logic circuitry's power supply from the battery, disabling the controller and reducing it's power consumption to nearly nothing.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 17 2015 3:00am

Green Machine wrote: eventually shut off power entirely as temperature gets too hot.

No , it does not shut off power, it shuts off the throttle. The controller is still powered on. Power to the controller and Throttle, two completely different things.
Green Machine wrote:..why can't it cut power on and off when a little red button installed on the front.
Since by power you seem to mean throttle, then , well yes it can. You would just need to install a latching switch on the CA case and connect it to the e-brake input so then hitting that button would kill the throttle. Like a handbrake / kill switch really

Green Machine wrote:the cycle analyst is right in the middle of the battery and the controller. Isnt that the perfect place for an on and off switch?
??? No, the CA is merely Tee'd off the controller, the battery is still directly connected to the controller , with no CA in the middle. Closeset you have is the Shunt for SA CA, but again that is merely a monitor.
Have you perhaps been playing with other controllers / head units recently , the likes of Adapto, etc and are getting confused


Green Machine wrote: I bet you for sure Justin could figure out a way to incorporate an on and off switch if he wanted to the same way a home reviever these days can power off the tv....
Home receivers have data transmission between receiver and TV, so commands can be sent to do most things given the correct firmware, but there is no data communication between the CA and the controller, so extra wiring would be required, But even if a data channel was available ( as the Xlyte APM has for Xlyte own brand Xie Chang controllers) then controller would to still need to be modified as the firmware within them does not allow for on/off switching , that is why the ignition pad on the controller is for.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Apr 17 2015 3:21am

guys i understand trust me.

The stand alone is literally right in the middle.

The DP has a plug to a controller (usually infinion) which can be turned on off by a signal. The CA communicates with the controller....so why cant it tap into the inineons ability to shut on and off. That is what i asked initially...is it possible?

The DP acts as if its in the middle...doing a low voltage cut off...high tempatrure cut off...

Perhaps if its not...and its impossible for the DP to communicate with the controller and signal it to power off.....then the ebikes.ca could use there engineers to provide a small on and off switch cirquit braker or wtv that solves the problem of how to cut power on and off and offer it as a stand alone feature....couldnt someone like justin develop something as simple as than in a few days? Or perhaps source the perfect part?

i am actually out riding ebikes a lot..and i know a lot of people to have small accidents simply by accidently throttling a parked bike.

Ok so the DP can control the throttle...why not a feature where as the bike has been standing at 0mph for more than one minute it shuts off throttle until a button is pressed?

maybe i am just being stupid.

I feel like im in sunday church all over again asking all the wrong questions.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 17 2015 3:47am

Green Machine wrote:guys i understand trust me.
...ummmmm?
Green Machine wrote:The stand alone is literally right in the middle.
think of that little block that is in the middle as a Researcher in to road traffic , and the number of cars that pass a point at a certain time. it can give you the figures of how many cars pass that point, but it can in no way control the traffic, except if drastic action was taken...like jumping in the road. That would be what Amberwolf was suggesting., in effect with his mention of the soft wtart switching get in that same place. it can be done but is a major thing
Green Machine wrote:The DP has a plug to a controller (usually infusion) which can be turned on off by a signal.

Not sure I get what you mean there..

Green Machine wrote: The CA communicates with the controller...
No, not at all in the data communication sense. It has no connection to the MCU and the data tx/rx pads. Not that that would help in this case. All it does is monitor voltage and send a single voltage signal back to the throttle line.
Green Machine wrote: so why can't it tap into the infineons ability to shut on and off.
This is one of understanding how that 'ability ' is implemented. It is not an ability as such, the controller has no ABILITY to shut off or power on/off from a signal, be it Internal or external. The FACILITY is there via a single pad that sends power to the logic side of the controller .
You either connect power to it via a hard wired link or via an external switch from the battery. positive While the controller is connected to the battery, the power side of the system is fully live, and always will be. The facility that the controllers have for a power on/off option is merely one of making or breaking the connection from the battery positive / live side of the controller to the 'brain or logic side. They don't have the actually ability to shut off with a logic level signal. As Justin mention earlier the power on/off option is merely a single physical switch that the controller supplier may have fitted or you may have to wire yourself up ti the handle bars...or if you like to a switch fitted within the CA housing. but weither way, it will still be the CA coming alive BECAUSE of power FROM THE CA, not the CA making the Contoller come alive.

Though with a little bit of wiring by yourself you could make it appear to work that way.
Last edited by NeilP on Apr 17 2015 4:13am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Apr 17 2015 4:00am

Hey i got an idea. On the stand alone ca...

Maybe some ebike engineers could figure out how to combine this:
1mOhm_Shunt.jpg
1mOhm_Shunt.jpg (46.71 KiB) Viewed 2295 times
with this:
fuse.JPG
fuse.JPG (18.9 KiB) Viewed 2295 times
and make it as small as possible and offer it as an extra feature for the stupid and lazy people who dont want to deal with designing (soldering) there own on and off swtich. People who have regular lives and dont own a solder gun and just want there shit to work properly without having to fiddle with it.

And how about on the dp...with all its sophistication and stuff i cant even comprehend just have a simple saftey feature where it goes into throttle off mode when it has been sitting idle at 0 throttle for more than 1 minute...and you just tap a button to turn it back on? Parents everyhwhere will appreciate the safety conscious features....and ebike riders everywhere will appreciate the convenience and practicality of it all. I guarantee less ebikes will be jacked...

Or maybe...just maybe...there is a way the DP can communicate with the infineons capacity to shut off via signal...and signal the controller to shut off. The CA could be equipped with a red button on the front that could toggle the on and off. It could also be equipped with a small lithium battery so it is not dependent on controller for power and has added benefit of memory of past events...past rides etc....ah reading is not cut off every time you unplug (turn off the bike) etc. And if nothing else a cycle analsyt on/off swtich would mean less wires for the DIY buider to run to the handlebars for a separate on and off switch, and at best it would provide an on and off switch that on most ebikes would not be installed.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 17 2015 4:26am

Green Machine wrote:Hey i got an idea. On the stand alone ca...

Maybe some ebike engineers could figure out how to combine this:


and make it as small as possible and offer it as an extra feature for the stupid and lazy people who dont want to deal with designing (soldering) there own on and off swtich. People who have regular lives and don't own a solder gun and just want there shit to work properly without having to fiddle with it.

Already been done to a degree, see Ambers earlier post about Soft start stuff...but probably no one makes one though, which is what I see you are wanting.


Green Machine wrote:And how about on the dp...with all its sophistication and stuff i cant even comprehend just have a simple saftey feature where it goes into throttle off mode when it has been sitting idle at 0 throttle for more than 1 minute...and you just tap a button to turn it back on?
Now that is a firmware possibility. I am sure Justin could incorporate that in firmware. So of throttle is a zero for a set period, and auto drake override comes in to play and it is flashed up on the screen as 'Auto hand brake engaged.. To a degree you can already do that if you have a pedal sensor. You would set it so that the throttle is totally dead and un responsive until pedalling is detected and the bike is moving above a certain speed.



Green Machine wrote:Or maybe...just maybe...there is a way the DP can communicate with the infineons capacity to shut off via signal...and signal the controller to shut off.
You might want to go back up and re read what I said earlier, the Infinieons don't have that ability to shut off via a signal. They only have a Facility to have an external switch or a switch built in to the case.


Green Machine wrote: The CA could be equipped with a red button on the front that could toggle the on and off. And if nothing else it would be less wires for the DIY builder to run to the handlebars for a separate on and off switch, and at best it would provide an on and off switch that on most ebikes would not be installed.
Not possible without changing the CA DP plug to one with more pins and asking for the controller manufacturers to build all new controllers to a new standard. Already outlined in posts I have made before.



If you buy a complete kit from the likes of EM3EV then all of this is done for you , wiring, handle bar power switch , etc, all plug and play compatible. You can't go around buying modular components that are universal and expect them all to do all you want without some soldering of your own.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 17 2015 4:46am

Green Machine wrote:Hey i got an idea. On the stand alone ca...

Maybe some ebike engineers could figure out how to combine this:
with this:
BreakerShunt.jpg
BreakerShunt.jpg (42.18 KiB) Viewed 2267 times
Yours Truly :wink:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 17 2015 4:59am

NeilP wrote:
Green Machine wrote: And how about on the dp...with all its sophistication and stuff i cant even comprehend just have a simple saftey feature where it goes into throttle off mode when it has been sitting idle at 0 throttle for more than 1 minute...and you just tap a button to turn it back on?
Now that is a firmware possibility. I am sure Justin could incorporate that in firmware. So of throttle is a zero for a set period, and auto drake override comes in to play and it is flashed up on the screen as 'Auto hand brake engaged..
Indeed, in fact this exact feature was implemented in the original custom Stokemonkey CA firmware. After a programmed time window, the throttle output would be locked off and would only reset either when the bike started rolling or when a user pressed the (what was then just one) button. It's not a hard thing to implement again, but I can say this is the first request I've heard for it.
To a degree you can already do that if you have a pedal sensor. You would set it so that the throttle is totally dead and un responsive until pedalling is detected and the bike is moving above a certain speed.
Even without a pedal sensor you can do it very effectively by setting a minimum start speed of like 1kph. Then when the bike is parked and you hit the throttle nothing will ever happen, but once you are on it and start to roll it will be immediately responsive. But the downside is that if you are starting from a dead standstill, you'd still need to get that initial pedal rotation in with your legs before the motor would kick in.
If you buy a complete kit from the likes of EM3EV then all of this is done for you , wiring, handle bar power switch , etc, all plug and play compatible.
Even if you don't by a complete kit, if the only thing is your pet peeve is the lack of an on/off switch then next time you order your controllers, simply tell the vendor to include the on/off switch. I agree that it's a bit absurd that the DIY popular Lyen's don't have this brought out, as most DIY batteries are also lacking an on/off switch and plugging/unplugging your battery is not the smartest way to turn things on and off.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 17 2015 5:52am

justin_le wrote: Even if you don't by a complete kit, if the only thing is your pet peeve is the lack of an on/off switch then next time you order your controllers, simply tell the vendor to include the on/off switch.
True, but it seems GM does not want a separate handle bar mounted switch..kits like Pauls have the power switch, if not integrated
int eh CA, at least integrated into the Throttle unit, so one less wire to run to the bars
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Apr 17 2015 11:20am

This is not for my bikes.

And have on/off switches figured out on my own bikes. In fact i was doing I believe what you guys call a "soft on/off switch" since years back. A simple on off toggle bought from mouser with a small resistor solderered between positive and negative so it does not zap when you turn it on and therefore not hard on the switch. It has an extremely low draw on the battery when the bike is not turned on...i forgot the exact draw...but its very small. RonZ (an electrical engineer) developed it for me and showed me which mouser supplies to order. It cost $3 total. It was elegant, simple and worked wonderful. It was so simple i wondered why no one is selling one ready to go.

I am writing an article for my website on on/off switch and how major DIY producers and vendors have not made it even a small priority to provide whats an imoprtant safety device on an electric vehicle for very obvious reasons. I understand on on/off feature is not that easy to implement and may have to wait till v4...but the cycle analyst would be a much better product if it did. I know justin is more than capable of making one. But as he said in his post no one except me has ever asked for that kind of feature. Amazing.

And you guys love to talk like engineers and are surprisingly condescending and rude to regular people like me....regular in that I am not trying to talk/be an engineer. But I thought good engineers were good at thinking outside of the box and coming up with creative solutions to easy problems? The best engineers i know of are able to come up with elegant solutions to any problem and don't use words like impossible or cant be done.

Its a big problem that most powerful DIY bikes out there do not have an on/off switch. I guess i will be like the ralph nader of ebikes...and the same way he bitched on how all cars should have seatbelts as standard equipment and because of his bitching seatbelts and many other safety features have been implemented as required equipment in cars.

I believe all ebikes should have on/off switches. I believe most of them at this point lack them. I also think DIY bikes without BMS should be illegal because its public safety hazard. We as a group have more garage/house/store fires than any other group i have heard of and its never acklowledged as a real problem.

All-cell
Bms-Batttery
Lyen controllers
EMS controllers

None of these products have simple on/off switches integrated into there products. To make one you must pay extra, buy a separate switch, and implement it yourself with running unsightly wires etc. Ideally all those controller companies should have a toggle on the back including the $1000 all cell battery.

In the meantime it would be super nice for the engineers at ebikes.ca to compensate since they have the most popular DIY product (the CA) on the planet. Or atleast offer a simple on off switch like the one Ronz designed for me as one of their product lines.

You guys mentioned buying a complete solution...and someone mentioned the adapptec (not me) ebikes.ca should offer a complete solution with an integrated CA and custom designed controller like adapttec has done ....the adapptec has a feature where you get off the bike the unit senses the bike is parked and automatically shuts off the throttle and goes into security mode locks the hub motor and requires a security code to turn back on.....wowsers. I guess the russians on there first release are about to give us a schooling on how well things can be done if thought is put into what people want/need.

Oh and another pet peeve of mine....the v4 cycle analyst should have a small back up battery built in...same with the cycle satiator. At the prices these devices cost you shouldnt lose your ah reading etc when the device is unplugged. I guess no one ever asks for that either...its too low level thinking.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 17 2015 12:15pm

Green Machine wrote:All-cell
Bms-Batttery
Lyen controllers
EMS controllers

None of these products have simple on/off switches integrated into there products. To make one you must pay extra, buy a separate switch, and implement it yourself with running unsightly wires etc. Ideally all those controller companies should have a toggle on the back including the $1000 all cell battery.
Both of my Lyen controllers have an on/off switch, as well as an older Grin controller. I did have to pay an extra $5 (or something close to that) for Edward to install the switch into the controller, but that's a small price to pay for the feature. I'm ok with vendors to DIY'ers offering on/off switches as options, since the vendor can't know the end user's application. E.g. the end user may have another power switch in-line or may prefer to do without the slight reduction in reliability resulting from the introduction of a new component.
You guys mentioned buying a complete solution...ebikes.ca should offer a complete solution with an integrated CA and custom designed controller like adapttec has done ....the adapptec has a feature where you get off the bike it automatically shuts tiself off and goes into security mode locks the hub motor and requires a security code to turn back on.....wowsers.
Although I've never had my bike run away from me or someone else by blipping the throttle while stopped--it helps to have a double-leg kickstand lift the rear wheel completely off the ground when parked and to have the bike wrapped inside a fairing--I do like the idea of the CAV3 having an optional security setting that disables operation by pushing ThrOut voltage to zero after some timeout, reset by (for example) the operator holding down either button for a few seconds to return to normal "on" mode. The user should be able to set the timeout as high as "infinity" or to disable the feature.
Oh and another pet peeve of mine....the v4 cycle analyst should have a small back up battery built in...same with the cycle satiator. At the prices these devices cost you shouldnt lose your ah reading etc when the device is unplugged. I guess no one ever asks for that either...its too low level thinking.
Trip Ah and Total Ah are already stored in non-volatile memory in the CAV3.
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teklektik   10 GW

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CA V3 Motor Power Disable & Low Security Lockout

Post by teklektik » Apr 17 2015 12:51pm

The existing CA can provide a 'parking disable' and a 'low security' lockout for those who wish a plug-and-play solution.
  1. Make the configuration settings shown in green:
    CAV3_lowSecurityPresetLockout.png
    CAV3_lowSecurityPresetLockout.png (31.15 KiB) Viewed 2263 times
  2. Configure Preset 2 (and optionally 3) for desired 'normal' operating modes (i.e. throttle, PAS, etc).
    • When powered up, the bike will be in Preset 1 with inoperative PAS and a dead throttle.
  3. Use CA console buttons to switch to Preset 2 or 3 to drive bike (see "2.2 Mode Presets" of Unofficial User Guide).
  4. Return to Preset 1 to disable the bike motor (e.g. parking, standing, walking the bike, etc). The CA and controller remain powered up, but effectively disabled.
  5. For added convenience so the motor can be disabled with a flick of a switch, add a 2 or 3 position AuxPot switch to handlebar configured for 'Preset Selection' as described in the Guide:
    See Guide sections:
    • "5.5 Auxiliary Pot"
    • "Appendix E. Configurable Aux Pot 3-Position Switch Using Fixed Resistors"
    For an off-the-shelf solution, purchase:
    CAV3_3Position-LimitOrPresetSelectSwitch.png
    CAV3_3Position-LimitOrPresetSelectSwitch.png (24.61 KiB) Viewed 2263 times
    This "Poor Man's Kill Switch" can be located adjacent to the throttle for thumb activation which fulfills a basic kill switch requirement (that it be operable without releasing the grips). However, it fails to provide the level of failsafe operation of a simple mechanical switch disabling power to the controller logic as provided by the existing 'ignition' or 'power' connections available on EM3EV and Lyen controllers. The presence of intervening CA electronics using throttle suppression does not safely address failure modes of improperly operating electronics or damaged wiring. This is not 'safety' of the same caliber as direct controller shutdown already provided by those devices and primarily addresses operator convenience and errors - not true bike failure modes.
Last edited by teklektik on Apr 17 2015 2:32pm, edited 2 times in total.
Visit Grin Technologies at www.ebikes.ca
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 17 2015 2:14pm

Green Machine wrote:guys i understand trust me.
I don't think you truly do, and that's why the disconnect (and I don't think you're really reading the replies to you either). See a reply to a quote further down.

I personally like the idea of the CA being able to fully control the bike...it's just not quite possible the way you're thinking of yet, without all the other manufacturers getting into the act as well. (or making a closed system that doesnt' allow the CA to work as-intended with anything else...would only work in basic mode like it does now).

At one time when I first started figuring out how to motorize my own bike, I had a grand plan to design and build a complete system that would include everything from motor, controller, battery, monitoring, data collection, safety cutoff features, lighting, signals, etc...and eventually gave up on it cuz I just can't design it myself, and even if I did it would cost a fortune and no one would buy one.

The stand alone is literally right in the middle.
No, it's shunt is. That's all. No power flows thru the CA itself in DP or SA versions.

You could build it so that it *did* flow thru it, but then you have to run thick high-current high-voltage wires all the way up to whereever you mount your CA and back to the controller and battery, rather than the tiny thin ones that are used for data monitoring.

Alternately, you could do what I already said. Why don't you look up some of those devices here on ES (there's several design threads, including one by AgniusM that is very complex, but doesnt' actually shut power off, it *still* uses only the controller's "ignition/keyswitch" wire; could be combined with one of the others by Methods, Fechter, etc to do what you want though).


The DP has a plug to a controller (usually infinion) which can be turned on off by a signal.
Nope. Again, those are ONLY turning the throttle signal off, or engaging ebrake levers.

Typical ebike controllers, including the ones you've listed elsewhere, do not include a function to turn off.

The only thing they have is the keyswitch/ignition wire that cuts power to the logic section's power supply.

There's no provision on the CA connector for this wire, so it would require ebikes.ca and all of those manufacturers that already provide a CA plug to now either change that CA connector to a new 7-wire one, and then all CA stuff will no longer be compatible between before and after that point, or for them to add a single-pin connector to the CA and the controllers, and then add a FET in the CA for switching that (as I said before).


The CA communicates with the controller
No, it doesn't. I lost track of how many times people already told you this.

....so why cant it tap into the inineons ability to shut on and off. That is what i asked initially...is it possible?
No, becuase it doesnt' have an ability to shut on and off the way you are talking about, or to communicate.


The DP acts as if its in the middle...doing a low voltage cut off...high tempatrure cut off...
Not in the way you are thinking, it doesn't. It turns the throttle off or down, or it engages ebrake signal.



Perhaps if its not...and its impossible for the DP to communicate with the controller and signal it to power off.....then the ebikes.ca could use there engineers to provide a small on and off switch cirquit braker or wtv that solves the problem of how to cut power on and off and offer it as a stand alone feature....couldnt someone like justin develop something as simple as than in a few days? Or perhaps source the perfect part?
Please search ES for the threads I discussed previously---such a device already exists. At one time it could be purchased...but apparently not many wanted one, and so Methods probably lost a lot of money on it's development (possibly contributing to his business closing and ceasing development of new ebike products). The others are DIY ones, except for AgniusM's which doesnt' actually cut power off completely lke a breaker.

Remember also that whatever you make that works like a breaker will have to be able to handle *all* of the current the controller pulls from teh battery, and will have to be capable of the highest voltage pack anyone would possibly want to use with it.

So either you use expensive parts on all of them, or you have to keep a bunch of versions around for various current and voltage capabilities. Both of which cost money, and make the end product more expensive (possibly a lot more).

i am actually out riding ebikes a lot..and i know a lot of people to have small accidents simply by accidently throttling a parked bike.
Which would almost certainly not change, becuase they aren't going to remember to turn it off--I'd guess a fair number of those bikes already have on/off switches somewhere, that never get used. ;)

They probably also don't have $150 CA's on them...after you add all teh stuff for the more complicated version of this switch it'll be a $200 CA, and I really doubt they'll want one then.

Ok so the DP can control the throttle...why not a feature where as the bike has been standing at 0mph for more than one minute it shuts off throttle until a button is pressed?

I'd personally want that to be user-settable, but there's probably no reason it can't be done (if it hasn't already) unless the MCU doesnt' have room for the code. (I'd need it settable because with traffic I may be sitting at a light for several minutes at a time waiting for a chance to go).


I feel like im in sunday church all over again asking all the wrong questions.
Well, I think the issue is you need to increase your understanding of exactly how the devices you want to work in a certain way *actually* work first, so you will know what limitations you're up against. ;)


Green Machine wrote:Maybe some ebike engineers could figure out how to combine this:
1mOhm_Shunt.jpg
with this:
fuse.JPG
and make it as small as possible and offer it as an extra feature for the stupid and lazy people who dont want to deal with designing (soldering) there own on and off swtich.
If you really want a circuit breaker like shown in the pic, well, it'd have to be huge because as said before it'd have to handle the highest possible current anyone would throw at their bikes, and the highest possbile voltage. Most likely it'd end up as big or bigger than a couple of LS CA's.

I have one on CB2 that isnt' even technically capable of handling what little I throw at it (though ti hasnt' failed yet in it's several years of use) and it's almost the size of the palm of my hand.

I guarantee less ebikes will be jacked...
How many less? Probably a couple less. They'll just ride them off like regular bikes instead...or throw them in their truck or van, changing their mode of theft.

It could also be equipped with a small lithium battery so it is not dependent on controller for power and has added benefit of memory of past events...past rides etc....ah reading is not cut off every time you unplug (turn off the bike) etc.
I don't know what wattmeter you use, but the CA already does that, without a battery--it's stored in flash.

(this is where it would help you a lot if you learn first how the things you want to change already work ;))

In fact i was doing I believe what you guys call a "soft on/off switch" since years back. A simple on off toggle bought from mouser with a small resistor solderered between positive and negative so it does not zap when you turn it on and therefore not hard on the switch. It has an extremely low draw on the battery when the bike is not turned on...i forgot the exact draw...but its very small. RonZ (an electrical engineer) developed it for me and showed me which mouser supplies to order. It cost $3 total. It was elegant, simple and worked wonderful. It was so simple i wondered why no one is selling one ready to go.
Sounds ilke you are talking about a switch that turns the ignition wire on and off if it's a really small siwtch. If it is actually turning the main battery power on and off, to be safe it has to be rated for the max currents and voltages you'd see thru/across it.
The best engineers i know of are able to come up with elegant solutions to any problem and don't use words like impossible or cant be done.
It isn't that it is impossible--but there are limits to what can be done for a price that people are willing to pay, and as you increase the complexity you increase the price, and you decrease the number of people that will then use the product, and increase the number of poeple that will find a cheaper (less safe) alternative.


I also think DIY bikes without BMS should be illegal because its public safety hazard. We as a group have more garage/house/store fires than any other group i have heard of and its never acklowledged as a real problem.
Oh, it is--see the various threads discussing them.

The problem is that it is ignored by the builders, as would any law about such things.

It isn't the lack of a BMS that causes some of the fires, but other factors, and you'd need to go read all the fire threads to see what they might be---unfortuantely most that have fires don't ever really dig into the causes, or give full details on what led up to it, how exactly they built things, etc.

The fire argument can go on forever, because there is not enough data and wont' be, as those that have the fires cant' or won't provide it.

I don't disagree that there's a lot of safety concerns...but I think you may be looking at the wrong source of the problems. It's the mentality of the noob DIYer that is the biggest issue, and their lack of any budget or tools or often even caring one way or the other (till it's too late), that is the root cause of most of this safety stuff.


All-cell
Bms-Batttery
Lyen controllers
EMS controllers

None of these products have simple on/off switches integrated into there products. To make one you must pay extra, buy a separate switch, and implement it yourself with running unsightly wires etc. Ideally all those controller companies should have a toggle on the back including the $1000 all cell battery.
Isn't that a problem of those manufacturers? What did they tell you when you asked for a switch on their products?

FWIW, BMSBattery doesn't do anything but go find stuff at a market and send it to you (sometimes it's even what you actually ordered), so I wouldn't ever use them as an example of what is or isn't provided in/on a product. ;)

Oh and another pet peeve of mine....the v4 cycle analyst should have a small back up battery built in...same with the cycle satiator. At the prices these devices cost you shouldnt lose your ah reading etc when the device is unplugged.
[/quote]
Again, it's doesn't need one. It already saves that info. What brand of wattmeter do you use?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cal3thousand » Apr 17 2015 2:47pm

Cool idea Tek! Thanks for sharing. I love following this thread to just learn more about what can be done with the CA.
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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