Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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JeffH   100 µW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by JeffH » Apr 07 2017 3:50pm

justin_le wrote:
Hey and glad to hear that worked out, since I hadn't actually tested it out in practice, just looked right on paper.
Do you have any photos by chance? And do you find that you now only leave it in the red LED mode or do you sometimes switch back and forth?
I've used the red light during the day a number of times but have found that I prefer to switch to white (though maybe just because I can).

At night time there is no question though, the red is much preferable.
If it were an either/or choice and I couldn't switch, I'd go with the red.

Here's some photos taken in fairly bright indoor light.

I have the CA mounted in a mini-console and there was room to tuck a relatively large slide switch underneath, external to the CA.

Jeff
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radix   1 µW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by radix » Apr 08 2017 2:40am

Thanks for your answer. I have to describe my bike/usage better: My bike is PAS only, so no throttle. I pedal a lot, so the main purpose of motor is to help with accelerations and keeping speed at about 25-27 km/h. At 27 km/h I only need about 100 W of motor power in addition to pedalling. I also use a child trailer quite often, which requires a bit more power.

The reason I don’t want IntSGain at all is that I don’t want the accumulated past error (going over the speed limit) affect motor power at all. Therefore, it only matters how much over the speed limit the current speed is, not how long it has been over the limit. That way I can keep on cycling e.g. 1 km/h over the limit with a constant but lower motor power. If IntSGain is higher than zero, then power keeps on decreasing if speed is constantly 1 km/h over the limit. Using PAS it feels like the bike tries to slow you down. If IntSGain is zero, then going over the speed limit is much smoother and you don’t even always notice it. When IntSGain is zero, the PID controller should turn into PD or P controller. Another advantage of IntSGain = 0 is that when after a high speed downhill going uphill power adjusts much quicker. If IntSGain is higher than zero, speed can drop several kph bellow speed limit before power is restored.

Thanks for the tip to use DSGain. I tried 10 and 100, but still with those values I have had the speed limiter to start at 10-20 km/h. But DSGain = 10 feels a bit better than 0.

These are the PID value combinations I have tried:

PSGain = 1.00
IntSGain = 0
DSGain = 0

PSGain = 1.00
IntSGain = 0
DSGain = 100

PSGain = 1.00
IntSGain = 1
DSGain = 100

PSGain = 1.00
IntSGain = 0
DSGain = 10

With every combination the speed limit has at least once been randomly activated at somewhere between 10-20 kph. Even setting IntSGain to 1 did not help. But the limiter does not activate prematurely at every hard acceleration. With the best combination so far (PSGain = 1.00 IntSGain = 0 DSGain = 10) it has happened only once. EDIT: Today it happened a couple of times with these settings. If the limiter is activated at e.g. 14 kph, it does not help if I keep on pedalling at 14 km/h or lower or higher. Only way to reset the limit to 26.5 kph is to stop. Not even restarting CA without stopping helped.

I need to have a speed limiter to keep the bike legal in EU. If you wonder why I’m setting the speed limit a bit over 25 kph, it is because EN 15194 standard allows the speed limit to be 10 % over 25 kph. Also the Finnish police reduce 3 kph from the speeds that they measure vehicles travelling because of the measuring accuracy.

Edit: It seems that premature speed limiting occurs when I accelerate rapidly, but then suddenly slow down in the middle of the acceleration. Speed limiting flag (flashing kph) seems to show up quite often when accelerating somewhere between 10-20 kph, but it dissappears if I keep on accelerating. But if I slow down while it is showing up, then speed limit gets stuck there.

Edit 2: I discovered that this happens every time I adjust speed limit with digiaux while moving from 26.5 to 0 and again to 26.5. After these adjustments speed limiter is stuck at about 15 kph.
I also discovered that if IntSGain = 10, then speed limit gets stuck initially to a low value but slowly recovers to 26.5 kph. It seems that IntSGain affects the speed how fast speed limit recovers to set speed limit.

teklektik wrote:Setting IntSGain to 0 is not a good idea - there is almost no error correction generated so the throttle adjustments for speed can be super slow. This is probably the cause of your slow recovery. This is part of the black art of PID tuning and that particular rule of thumb and consequence is not called out in the Guide...

The DSGain term is the cause of the speed limit tripping lower than the speed setpoint. This gain controls the CA 'future sense' as it sees a rapid rate of speed change and throttles back to avoid an 'anticipated' speed limit overshoot. This only happens on hard acceleration - which is exactly the symptom you describe.
  • Think of DSGain as driving with your white-knuckled mother in the car screaming 'SLOW DOWN!' because you burned out but actually were going less than 20mph at the time - it's the acceleration that freaked her out.
If you want to deactivate speed limiting, the settings in the Guide on the bottom of page 30 will do the trick:
Guide wrote:If Speed Throttle and maximum speed limit enforcement are not required, disable the speed control logic:set SLim->MaxSpeed to the maximum value, IntSGain = 100, PSGain = 0, DSGain = 0.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 10 2017 10:39pm

mrbill wrote:I found another possible bug: Sometimes when clicking one button or the other when riding along, the temporary AuxA Pot screen pops up. It occasionally stays up for several seconds, longer than the usual one second or so after making an adjustment to the pot. It does not seem to be related to road vibration but rather to my clicking one of the mode buttons on the CA3. Usually doesn't occur, but for a while on today's ride it occurred frequently when I was clicking through the diagnotics screen and the battery IR screen, one and two screens to the "left" of the main screen.
I observed this error again yesterday. The problem presented itself when I was not touching the CA3 buttons. When it occurred, instead of showing me a single number for power in watts, I saw rapidly changing tens and ones digits as if I were vibrating the pot slightly back and forth. The hundreds digit did not change.

I also tried tapping and jiggling the CA3, the AuxA pot. and its wiring but could not elicit the error condition when doing so.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ColinB » Apr 12 2017 1:01am

I could use some advice. I am seeing the Amp limit occasionally, but I've set it artificially high because I prefer to use the power throttle mode. The bike seems to hesitate and power drops off momentarily. Any thoughts on why?

The bike is a few years old, and has over 15,000km, so there could be a worn part or connection somewhere. I ride in wet conditions also.

I only noticed because I can't get cruise control to stay engaged. That may be a separate issue, or related, I'm not sure.

Thanks for any help.
Colin

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 18 2017 12:00pm

I discovered an obscure problem that may or may not be connected to the newly-implemented feature "Limit Speed Using Regen".

One of my presets is intended to operate in mostly "pedalec-only" mode. Yet, for this preset I allow throttle use up to 5 mi/hr to ease starting from zero speed.

The problem occurs when I command engine braking by closing the eBrake circuit and adjusting the throttle. The bike may be descending a hill at 25 mph, but the moment I advance the throttle, the CA3 commands maximum engine braking until the bike slows to 5 mph, even if I've only commanded a small amount of engine braking force.

The solution may be to ignore the Max No-Pedal Speed setting under Speed Limit Settings when in Regen mode.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 18 2017 1:53pm

ColinB wrote:I am seeing the Amp limit occasionally, but I've set it artificially high because I prefer to use the power throttle mode. The bike seems to hesitate and power drops off momentarily. Any thoughts on why?
Not sure what's going on there, but realize that for Current or Power Throttle, the max settings are scaled 0-100% by throttle rotation. So - if you set the max current to a fantastically high number, that will be 100% throttle rotation making your initial small throttle motion apply aggressive amounts of current.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 18 2017 2:01pm

mrbill wrote:I discovered an obscure problem that may or may not be connected to the newly-implemented feature "Limit Speed Using Regen".

One of my presets is intended to operate in mostly "pedalec-only" mode. Yet, for this preset I allow throttle use up to 5 mi/hr to ease starting from zero speed.

The problem occurs when I command engine braking by closing the eBrake circuit and adjusting the throttle. The bike may be descending a hill at 25 mph, but the moment I advance the throttle, the CA3 commands maximum engine braking until the bike slows to 5 mph, even if I've only commanded a small amount of engine braking force.

The solution may be to ignore the Max No-Pedal Speed setting under Speed Limit Settings when in Regen mode.
Hmmm - that's a weird side-effect. Needs a little snooping, but I think you are correct about the need to perhaps make Max No-Pedal Speed setting subordinate to the regen logic.
Good sleuthing - thanks!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cero » Apr 19 2017 4:37am

I have some strange things going on with PAS.
PAS sensor is simplest reed switch I could get with 4 poles.
Motor kicks in at 5 RPM and assists until 60RPM, but when I pedal up to 30rpm, the PAS indicator is jumping to zero once pre each revolution.
I double checked the connection of PAS sensor, even with an oscilloscope, just in case if some pulses were missing, but everything is ok.
If I pedal with more than 30rpm, then also everything works ok, also if I change pole count to 8, but then rpm value shown is wrong.
Does this issue have to do something with small pole count?
I'm using latest beta b16 firmware.

I'm also missing max throttle speed parameter in PAS menu, in the latest beta firmware, as I'm from Europe and I don't want to have active throttle when PAS is active.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 19 2017 7:55am

cero wrote:PAS sensor is simplest reed switch I could get with 4 poles.
Motor kicks in at 5 RPM and assists until 60RPM, but when I pedal up to 30rpm, the PAS indicator is jumping to zero once pre each revolution.
...
If I pedal with more than 30rpm, then also everything works ok, also if I change pole count to 8, but then rpm value shown is wrong.
Four poles is okay but the assist start/stop delays will be more pronounced than with higher pole counts. In any case, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Motor kicks in at 5 RPM and assists until 60RPM". I'm thinking from your description that these are your PAS->StartThrsh and PAS->STopThrsh settings. If so, then the settings are incorrect and will lead to exactly the intermittent power situation you describe. If you adjust your settings to the recommended initial values shown in the Guide as a stating point and tweak from there, you should be able to eliminate the dropouts and get acceptable PAS delays for a 4-magnet wheel.

From the Unofficial Guide p 42:
pasStartStopAdjNote.png
pasStartStopAdjNote.png (9.43 KiB) Viewed 2761 times
cero wrote: I'm using latest beta b16 firmware.

I'm also missing max throttle speed parameter in PAS menu, in the latest beta firmware, as I'm from Europe and I don't want to have active throttle when PAS is active.
When you installed b16, a SettingsSummary.txt file was installed that explains all the available settings. There you will that the MxNoPdlSpd is found under SETUP SPEED LIMS. The ReleaseNotes.txt file explains that this parameter was moved from PAS to SLim in release 3.1b15.

Hopefully these two files will help convey the changes and current state of the beta releases which are more fluid than back in the days of 3.0 pre-production development. There the emphasis was on fleshing out a relatively fixed framework of basic functionality while today we are adding new features and revising the menus so that the growing list of tuning options make sense.
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cero   10 mW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cero » Apr 19 2017 9:33am

Thank you for fast response.
Everything you wrote is correct, I confused thresholds with speeds, also didn't know that there was updated version of CAuug, so now I see that there is a lot of new information to read.
I also followed both bits of your advice and now everything seems to work as it should.

Yes CA has become a lot more complicated (but in a good sense) than it was.
Looking at advanced industrial frequency inverters I work with, wich became also complicated to set up with more than 1000 parameters, usually, they make compromise, to set up more than 2/3 of those parameters just with PC, which has more user-friendly interface setup program

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 21 2017 11:23am

mrbill wrote:I do have the odd sensation that if I pedal while engine braking [at a set speed], I can feel the motor attempt to compensate for the slight variation of speed with each pedal stroke in syncopation with my pedaling.
I stand by the above quote, but I also notice a similar problem when merely soft-pedaling during regeneration at a set speed with an active PAS system.

I was doing some unrelated testing yesterday that had me descending long hills at a set speed while not contributing any pedaling input to forward motion. But, to stay warm on the bike I "soft pedaled", kept the cranks rotating without engaging the rear wheel.

I noticed that when I did not pedal and just sat idly on the bike, regeneration hovered around a narrow value, e.g. between -400 and -350 watts. When I soft-pedaled without engaging the rear wheel or affecting the bike's speed in any way, regeneration power varied over a greater range, from -450 to -50 watts.

What seems to be occurring is that when the PAS wheel is in motion, the CA3 was briefly switching to power throttling as speed dipped even momentarily below the set speed. Or, perhaps the regeneration to hold a set speed is interrupted periodically when the PAS wheel is in motion and the bike's velocity is dipping below the set speed.

The problem is minor, but since regeneration behavior near the set speed appears to be different when the PAS wheel is spinning vs. when it is not, I thought I should mention it.
Bill Bushnell
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 22 2017 2:00pm

Hey mrbill-
We're a little crushed with some other stuff just now, but getting regen sorted is high on the list for finalizing 3.1 so we'll be pursuing these observations shortly ..... just can't give you good feedback just now...

Thanks for the input - it's always welcome!
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Throttle settings for Phase Runner

Post by ferret » Apr 23 2017 2:46am

Hi,
currently my CA is used with a Castle Creation controller in a current throttle configuration. I will be replacing the controller with a Phase Runner.
Since the Phase Runner has a build in torque based throttle control, I'm not sure how to configure the CA's throttle settings to work with it.
Any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Avner.
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Re: Throttle settings for Phase Runner

Post by teklektik » Apr 23 2017 6:57am

ferret wrote:Since the Phase Runner has a build in torque based throttle control, I'm not sure how to configure the CA's throttle settings to work with it.
Good question. The CA generally works better with a dumb controller so it can control everything consistently, but in this case you want to take advantage of the PR's superior throttle control.
  • Dumb down the CA throttle control by setting it to PassThru - what goes in, goes out - save for voltage range and ramping adjustments.
  • Leave the PR throttle voltage settings at default and then adjust the CA to match since these same parameters are adjustable at both ends. Any matching range will work, of course.
  • Ramping is the last duplicated adjustment and here the idea is return to the 'dumb controller' strategy so the CA controls the feature. Set the PR Up/Down Ramp pretty fast (50ms) so the controller will respond quickly allowing the CA to supersede the response with something slower if desired. This will let you more easily tune up ramping operation from the CA end.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Apr 24 2017 1:27am

this is how i did it with my lebowski and any other "more intelligent" controller.
let the controller decide how much throttle it needs. set the CA to pass-through and super speeds/snappy throttle curve. if you let two clever algorithms fight each other none will win ;)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ferret » Apr 24 2017 4:35am

Thanks guys.
Got the PR yesterday, will set up as suggested.

Avner.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 24 2017 10:37am

izeman wrote:this is how i did it with my lebowski and any other "more intelligent" controller.
let the controller decide how much throttle it needs. set the CA to pass-through and super speeds/snappy throttle curve. if you let two clever algorithms fight each other none will win ;)
Yep - I totally agree that all manner of issues may arise when two PID controllers sit in the same loop (e.g. CA Current Throttle and PR current throttle) because of the unpredictable feedback interactions. On the other hand, throttle ramping is not a feedback-related feature and from the controller perspective simply appears as a slower throttle application when applied by the CA. There really should be no interaction/oscillations, etc since the CA does not really see or react to (via feedback) ramping actions taken by the controller.

Either of the two recommendations above should yield very similar results - both rely on the idea of setting up one device with really fast ramp response to effectively disable the ramping feature and then rely entirely on the other device to control the user-visible ramp effects. Given that either the CA or the PR might be selected to control ramping, the recommendation to use the CA arose exclusively because it is simple to adjust the CA on the road without needing a PC - a matter of convenience not functional advantage.

So - pick your poison, either approach should work okay - just don't allow both units to have material ramping effects or you may have an unnecessarily messy tuning episode.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Apr 24 2017 12:20pm

teklektik wrote:Hey mrbill-
We're a little crushed with some other stuff just now, but getting regen sorted is high on the list for finalizing 3.1 so we'll be pursuing these observations shortly ..... just can't give you good feedback just now...

Thanks for the input - it's always welcome!
Hey, no problem, tek.

I only mentioned it because I wanted to give the issue visibility. As I said, it's a minor problem in the grand scheme of things. With warmer weather we're expecting in California any day now... I don't expect to be needing to spin the cranks on the long downhills to stay warm!

Btw, I really like the speed-limiter used to control regen when descending. Having an "auto-braking" feature like this means I can set a moderate descending speed on most descents, usually 30-40 kph, and then free up a hand to eat, take photos, enjoy the scenery, and only worry about aiming the bike in the right direction. But, I do keep at least one hand near a brake lever to trim the speed a bit at sharp corners or for the unexpected.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by schüttelhuber » May 01 2017 8:03am

Hi Guys.

I´m from Germany. And I have a Cycle Analyst V3. Sorry for my bad englisch :D

I have a big problem. As i want to measure something on my CA, i closed the 10V line. In this forum, the solution is add a new diode on the unsafe 10V line and everything is good.. But it isn´t :( Now, the backlight is flashing but nothing else is happening. And in the german forum no one has the know how to fix it. The bug fix doesn´t works too, he said, power on.. but it is with power.

I have to say, that at first, it was the wrong diode and we didn´t see it. It was a z-diode. I try it with this diode and it works for just a second. Then i replace the z-diode with a normal diode. And now, only backlight. And a new display is really expensive, so i have the hope, that one of you, guys, can help me. You are my last hope.. :)

Thank you for your answers.

Greetings from Germany

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » May 01 2017 5:38pm

If you mean that you shorted the 10v line to ground, then it probably caused excessive current flow from the main regulator, and burned it out.

See here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... ir#p676208
for how I killed mine, and here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 25#p678269
for how to fix it

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » May 01 2017 7:54pm

schüttelhuber wrote: I´m from Germany. And I have a Cycle Analyst V3. Sorry for my bad englisch :D
Hey S-
You english American is quite good - no problems there ;-).

When you bought the CA you paid for Grin Technical Support - which IMHO is excellent.

Please contact them directly and either point them to your post here or recount your situation anew. You seem to have PCB repair skills, but try to give them some notion of what you are hoping for as a resolution or what you might undertake to remedy the situation (i.e. replace some parts, or just send back for repair) - this will help them put solutions on the table that you will find useful and appropriate for your situation and skill set.

It does sound like you may have damaged a regulator, but it's best to engage the guys who designed the damn thing and are familiar with this and many other similar failure modes... It's highly unlikely you damaged the LCD, but let's let the Grin Guys make the call.

Give it a try :D .
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by smart114 » May 04 2017 11:02am

Hello
I'm from Germany
Has for 3 years a Cycleanalyst V3 DPS and very satisfied with it. I now have a 12 S battery and additionally a Gearsensor still connected, which also works well. However, when switching the display is bright. Have noticed that at 50 V only little power is available for the sensor system. What can I do, that more can be connected, or the Cycleanalyst tolerates more tension?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » May 04 2017 12:13pm

smart114 wrote:...when switching the display is bright.
The LCD backlight responds to the current draw of the CA and 5V/10V accessories that it powers, so when you press buttons, use ebrakes, etc the LCD backlight can briefly change brightness. This is normal but can be a little unsettling I guess.
smart114 wrote:Have noticed that at 50 V only little power is available for the sensor system. What can I do, that more can be connected, or the Cycleanalyst tolerates more tension?
There is a fair bit of current available at around 50V - about 26ma. This is discussed on page 50 of the Unofficial Guide - there are some options described there if you need more power. I would think there is enough to run your throttle, ebrakes, and gear sensor - but I'm just guessing about the gear sensor.

I recommend that you hook up a DVM and measure the current you are actually using. You can hook it to the gear sensor and other devices individually or hook into either the CA red or black wires on the CA-DP connector. If you hook up at the CA-DP connector you will also see the current used by the CA itself (about 10ma) so subtract 10ma to compare to the table on page 50 which already has the CA current subtracted (that is, it shows accessory current only without the 10ma for the CA added in). If you're pretty close to the 26 ma in the table, I wouldn't worry about it - the table is based on conservative power capability so a few more ma at that voltage won't really matter.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by smart114 » May 04 2017 2:38pm

OK
Sorry my english is unfortunately not so good. Have it overflown, but now unfortunately does not know what I must make exactly?
It will measure the current consumption in the next days.
Would like to connect another 2 brake switches with magnet.
Connected are: T-HTwist Trottle, GEARSENSOR, PAS_12P, CA3_DAux, THERMISTOR10K
Later I would like to convert to 14 s battery.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by brickwall » May 05 2017 12:21pm

I bought a CAv3 last year and just today managed to get around to hooking it up and installing the latest 3.1 beta. Powerful device which I'll have hours of fun tweaking.

The throttle response is a lot smoother using only the controller than going through the CA3 when the motor is unloaded. When riding I didn't feel any difference. It's like the throttle is delivered in steps rather than continuously. I've yet to learn all about the settings, so I'm sure this is a feature, but would you kindly tell me more about it?

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