Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Animalector   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Animalector » Dec 24 2013 3:28pm

Thank you for the update. Merry Christmas.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by botz244 » Dec 25 2013 9:10am

i have 14 rides with this ca and no problems yesterday i turn on the controller the start up screen goes,then its blank and i get full throttle .its zombiess great stuff.24 fet ca with the thru thottle. 3 times tryed and still no screen and startup screen,so disconnect the motor and i can getinto setup mode and total wack 794 in wheel and 70kw limit .the throttle is set to 11% ,so i reset it ot 0. get back to regular screen but still blank and i have throttle.turn off and back on and still no screen and full thottle. anyone else have this problem?

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 25 2013 9:39am

botz244 wrote:... i turn on the controller the start up screen goes,then its blank and i get full throttle. ca with the thru thottle. 3 times tryed and still no screen and startup screen,so disconnect the motor and i can getinto setup mode and total wack 794 in wheel and 70kw limit .the throttle is set to 11% ,so i reset it ot 0. get back to regular screen but still blank and i have throttle.turn off and back on and still no screen and full thottle.
So there seem to be a couple of strange things rather suddenly:
  1. CA operates differently with controller powered - very odd - this symptom might have been incidental to something else...
  2. EEProm is scrambled (at least data and probably firmware).
So -
  • I would recommend checking the Vbatt to Gnd voltage (red + black wires from the CA-DP cable) on the CA PCB with the controller both connected and disconnected. Note these. This may be useful if things re-occur, but if you don't want to crack the CA open or are not good at this kind of stuff, just skip this for now.
  • It sounds like you need to re-flash to ensure you have viable firmware and valid calibration values. Here's a post about doing this - as explained there, it will require a double flash. Make sure you are using the latest firmware updater - available on the same page as the firmware (follow link above). Reconfigure and give it another go.
Also - what voltage are you running and what accessories/devices do you have attached to the CA (throttle, PAS, etc)? Just checking in case the on-board regulator was overtaxed....
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botz244   10 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by botz244 » Dec 25 2013 10:34am

yep running18s2p lipos. and just a throttle thru the ca nothing else.ill check the wiring inside.its been -5 to-10 degrees f here in Alaska the last couple of days . ill have to get a program cable or make one im bout page 25 now.so the regular screen doesnt show but when you go into settings it lights up fine but the menu is messed up ill get back with you on the wiring thanks tom

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by zombiess » Dec 26 2013 7:08pm

botz244 wrote:yep running18s2p lipos. and just a throttle thru the ca nothing else.ill check the wiring inside.its been -5 to-10 degrees f here in Alaska the last couple of days . ill have to get a program cable or make one im bout page 25 now.so the regular screen doesnt show but when you go into settings it lights up fine but the menu is messed up ill get back with you on the wiring thanks tom
LCD's can freeze and become unreadable at very cold temps. I wonder if it's acting up because of a thermal issue. I am pretty sure Justin took this into account when designing it since Canada gets pretty cold in a lot of places.

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Ricky_nz   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ricky_nz » Dec 26 2013 7:31pm

I noticed an interesting effect the other day on prelim 6

Go into the setup menu with throttle on and it stops driving the motor which is fine.
The interesting part is on exiting the setup menu the with the throttle now released the motor gets a large jolt of power before the control loops settle down. It is very short duration but probably not the best for geared hubs.

Probably a good idea for the software to initialise the PI loops to a zero state rather than the wound up state they could have been in when entering setup.

I know going into setup while riding isn't really the best idea but nice straight track with no one around...

Edit:
I was in current throttle mode at the time
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by botz244 » Dec 27 2013 1:21am

yep Zombiess i had been runnig the set up for days at -5 for 3 hours at a time. i know the screen gets real slow but nothing ever happened. i turned it on and off like 5 times and for a week been in and out of the cold. but any ways its still like thats start up screen and then blank and it been inside for 3 days now just need the cable. shouldnt the controller have a fail safe anyways or it that takin out of service when you hook up the CA. cant trust this uint anymore till i have a shut off wired.i dont have enough brakes to stop this beast plus im on snow and ice so ill crash anyway.remember 4.8 tires with grip stud on a 95 lb Fatbike

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 27 2013 10:16am

botz244 wrote:cant trust this uint anymore till i have a shut off wired.i dont have enough brakes to stop this beast plus im on snow and ice so ill crash anyway.remember 4.8 tires with grip stud on a 95 lb Fatbike
Let me emphasize that you should not be riding with this CA until the matter is resolved. It is operating in a very atypical manner and the WOT symptom is clearly dangerous.

As an aside - you appear to be riding an ebike with neither a kill switch nor ebrakes. IMHO this is a Very Bad Plan. Even an ebike without a CA can go WOT with a bad throttle Gnd connection or a drop of water across the throttle +5v/Sense leads. The apparent high power of your rig makes these decisions even more questionable.

Put a thumb switch across your controller 'ignition' wires straightaway. Also - since you will be getting a programming cable, you may also like to consider picking up one of the new CA V3 ebrake adapters that will drive your controller ebrakes through the V3 when you hook the ebrakes up to the CA. This stacks in between the CA-DP cable and the controller and provides throttle and ebrake connectors to drive the controller.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 27 2013 10:56am

The Errata document for the Unofficial User Guide (available here) has been reposted with very minor updates for clarity - nothing of technical consequence.
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botz244   10 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by botz244 » Dec 27 2013 4:17pm

its impossible to use the CA as there is no display to see.yep i have taking the whole thing out of service and have planned a kill switch, move it from the controller to the handle bars. i do have a stop switch on the throttle and that still goes thru the CA. but that will changeto the controller. i do have e brake that i plan to put it use now. also when i get the program cable for the CA does it work with window 8 cause im having troubles with the controller programming now. i wont need the adapter the brakes already go thru the ca along with the throttle.the Ca is the problem now

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 27 2013 8:02pm

botz244 wrote:i wont need the adapter the brakes already go thru the ca along with the throttle.
Ya - the adapter will allow your controller to be set up for braking regen if you wish. This isn't for everyone, but if you are interested, that's the gadget to do it. Shipping from is costly for small items so I thought I'd mention it since it would essentially ship free as an add-on for your cable order....
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Architectonic   1 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Architectonic » Dec 28 2013 4:24am

teklektik wrote:If you are troubled by a product issue, ES is never the best place to go first. You should email ebikes.ca and pursue it there.
I did email Justin a while back and he said that it was a known problem (as reported in this thread), but he couldn't replicate it.

This thread is the right place to discuss it because I think Justin needs some more information before he can figure it out.

It was postulated that it might be an interaction between certain BMS' and the (Xiechang/'infineon' controller), so my question is, does anyone have this (irregular booting) problem who does not have either a BMS or a Xiechang based controller?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Dec 28 2013 6:15am

Again..the old question..to create a new thread or tag on to this V3 thread...i chose to go with the latter

So..the CA datalogger with GPS..will that interface with the CA V3 same as the older CA versions?
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 28 2013 8:09am

NeilP wrote:So..the CA datalogger with GPS..will that interface with the CA V3 same as the older CA versions?
Yep - this and the data format is called out in section 6.9 of the Guide (Serial Data Port). Analogger works fine with the V3 which dumps additional information not present in the V2.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Dec 28 2013 8:25am

Excellent..i just returned a THUN crank...dopey bollocks here ordered the wrong width one :oops:
I now see the new TDCM cranks..which seem better and are cheaper...so I'll have some left over 'credit'. I know I should not as I am strapped for cash at the moment, but I have been selling stuff like crazy at moment...Not working :( and it will save money in the long run a I'll only be paying one lot of postage
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 28 2013 9:38am

NeilP wrote:i just returned a THUN crank...
I now see the new TDCM cranks..which seem better and are cheaper...
Ya - I have a Thun sitting here for the new build but the new TDCM rigs do seem very appealing.... it will be good to hear some feedback (go for it!) :D
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 28 2013 11:39am

Architectonic wrote:
teklektik wrote:If you are troubled by a product issue, ES is never the best place to go first. You should email ebikes.ca and pursue it there.
I did email Justin a while back and he said that it was a known problem (as reported in this thread), but he couldn't replicate it.

This thread is the right place to discuss it because I think Justin needs some more information before he can figure it out.
Don't take remarks out of context as you did here and suggest that I in any way discouraged discussion. Further, I am certain that if Justin wishes to solicit discussion and speculation of possible product problems in a public forum he will do so. IMHO that decision is best left in his hands.

As discussed in a more recent post above, Justin indicated that he now has sample units, the means to replicate the issue, and is actively pursuing resolution. His request was that folks with problems contact Grin directly so the unit could be exchanged and he could employ the returned failing unit for analysis.
  • I am certain that Grin's active pursuit of the issue is driven by emails to the company - perhaps even yours assisted in bringing focus to the issue.
Regarding my remark: IMHO the vendor is the first port of call when a product problem arises - he has product-specific knowledge and frankly, it's his responsibility. Moreover, it is a matter of respect to alert the vendor of the issue and give him the opportunity to 'make it right' before posting issues publicly where complaints live on forever regardless of the outcome.

That said, ES is certainly a fine resource in many situations when the matter is a 'use' issue (e.g. information, custom installation) and not a true product problem (defect) at all.
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Problems with infineon and V3 sorry i'm a noob at this!!!

Post by RC_guy » Dec 29 2013 12:18am

Sorry guys for asking so many questions if they have already been answered but I am a little confused about how to make this work and thanks Teklektik for the input and manual.

Here goes my setup http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=55647 (all from cell man bought in summer 2012 with upgraded wires and I think he told me I had the temp sensor):
1- MAC 7T
2- Infineon 40amp
3- Thumb throttle with the button for enable cruise
4- handlebar mounted 3 position switch
5- Handlebar mounted on-off switch to power the controller.
6- No ebrakes so I never use cruise (i might either get some hydraulic ebrake levers or modify the ones I have with a switch)

After talking to guys at grin tech, they told me to plug the CA-DP plug(I have the mating plug on my controller side) and plug the throttle wires from my throttle to the throttle input 3pin plug of the CA...No motor spin, then tekklektik informed me that I have a V2 compatible controller.

The features I am after with v3:
1- of course all the battery monitoring stuff
2- power or current throttle
3- 3 position switch would be nice to select 3 power levels
4- on/off (that already works)
5- Temperature limiting(i will figure that one out later)

I did set the ThrI-CntrlMode = Pass-thru
The max current is set to 40 amps
So if I plug the CA-DP plug and just plug my 3 throttle wires directly to the 3 pin CA throttle input, i see the voltage on the diagnostic screen varying from .82 to 4.21 IN and .85 to 3.65 OUT.
plugged this way, I tried a jumper between 5v and Throttle singnal of the CA connector(as described on p45) still nothing.

Could someone help me here?
What do I do with the 2 cruise wires, they still are connected to the controller right now (it would be nice to have that feature)

Thanks

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Re: Problems with infineon and V3 sorry i'm a noob at this!!

Post by teklektik » Dec 29 2013 11:19am

Hooking Up an Older V2 EM3EV Controller to a V3
RC_guy wrote:I did set the ThrI-CntrlMode = Pass-thru
The max current is set to 40 amps
So if I plug the CA-DP plug and just plug my 3 throttle wires directly to the 3 pin CA throttle input, i see the voltage on the diagnostic screen varying from .82 to 4.21 IN and .85 to 3.65 OUT.
So this is basically good - the CA is alive and operating normally. I am hoping that you went through all the installation steps and set up the shunt, battery, etc as laid out in the manual...
RC_guy wrote:plugged this way, I tried a jumper between 5v and Throttle singnal of the CA connector(as described on p45) still nothing.
The Errata document calls out that there are two different CA-DP interface styles and how to tell which one you have. There are a few steps on the first page. This is critical to getting the throttle connected properly - there are four possible throttle wiring setups.

However, from your post above, we see that you want 'normal' V3 operation (not legacy V2 mode) and that you have an older (2012) controller with a V2-style interface. So - you want to use the first wiring illustration shown in section 2.2 of the Errata doc - reproduced here:
  • CADP-V2Style-NormalMode.png
    CADP-V2Style-NormalMode.png (39.95 KiB) Viewed 2377 times
What you need to do is get the CA-DP (green) wire that goes to pin 6 of the connector from the CA side to go to the controller throttle sense wire - do not connect the other two wires of the controller throttle connector (+5v and Gnd). You can do this one of these ways:
  • The Guide shows how to do this in the first photo (method 1) in Appendix B "CA V3 Throttle OUT to Controller Connection" (p45) by modifying the CA cable and connector.
  • An alternative is to modify the controller wiring by cutting the controller CA-DP pin 6 wire midway and connecting the section coming out of the controller side of the CA-DP connector to the controller throttle sense wire. It's best to just add a mating throttle connector to the pin 6 wire from the controller CA-DP connector.
  • Yet another way is to buy buy the CA V3 Adapter module. Plug it between your CA-DP cable and the controller and attach the controller throttle cable.
When you have done this, the pin 6 CA-DP signal from the CA will go to the controller throttle input as shown in the illustration above. The CA can now drive your controller.

Although this may appear to be 'working', you must complete the installation instructions to properly adjust the throttle settings and ramping. This means following the procedures at least through section 4. If you have throttle surging, you will need to go through section 5 as well.
RC_guy wrote:What do I do with the 2 cruise wires, they still are connected to the controller right now (it would be nice to have that feature)
Leave these disconnected for now and/or don't use the cruise - leave that for another post - let's get the basic bike running properly first.
Do you have ebrakes and are they connected to the controller or the CA?

(next post about hooking up EM3EV temp sensor is here...)
Last edited by teklektik on Jan 09 2014 1:21pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by RC_guy » Dec 29 2013 1:01pm

No ebrakes as I have hydraulic disck brakes.
I only use the cruise very rarely only on an empty cycle path and as soon as I see oncoming traffic, I turn it off.

The 1st thing I did was setup my battery on the CA.
I will try to get it working and give update upon success!!!

BTW: It's amazing to see how people of this forum are willing to help noobs like me but its greatly appreciated. I would probably need the CA V3 for dummies version of the manual :oops:

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by RC_guy » Dec 29 2013 2:51pm

SUCCESS!!!!!!!!! :shock:
She's alive thanks guys.
So I did the connection as described, played with a few settings and I'm really starting to like this "gizmo"

Now how to get the temp sensor hooked up. Super straight forward if I knew which wires they were.
So there are the 3 main motor wires, and 6 other smaller wires that are connected to my controller.
I put an MPX plug on those. are all those wires for the hall sensors? Or are 2 of them from the temp sensor? Or I don't have a temp sensor?
If so which ones? How to test? maybe cellman knows?

Thanks
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motor connector.jpg

Animalector   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Animalector » Dec 29 2013 3:57pm

Well on the Hall connector there are typically 5 wires on the 6 pin connector
Green yellow blue on the bottom
Red black on the top
On your Hall connector the temp wire may be the one between the red and the black. If the is one. If there is not a wire there, it must have its own connector

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 29 2013 5:46pm

Hooking Up an Older V2 EM3EV Controller and Motor w/Temp Sensor to a V3
RC_guy wrote:So there are the 3 main motor wires, and 6 other smaller wires that are connected to my controller.
There are normally 5 wires for the connector but the upgraded motor has 6. They are (no necessarily in order):
  • +5 - (red)
  • Gnd - (black)
  • phase A - (green)
  • phase B - (yellow)
  • phase c - (blue)
  • Temp sensor -either (red with black shrink) or (white)
To make the temp sensor work, you will need to get the red-with-black-shrink wire up to your CA. Normally, Paul routes that signal to the CA-DP yellow 'speed' wire which is unused because you have a wheel pickup. This wire is normally disconnected inside the CA for a CA-DPS configuration.
EM3EV-CaDpsConn+Pcb4.png
EM3EV-CaDpsConn+Pcb4.png (54.17 KiB) Viewed 2916 times
You must do several things:
  1. verify that the temp wire (6th red-with-black-shrink) is routed to pin 5 of the CA-DP connector at the controller end. If not, make it so.
  2. open the CA case (see section 7.10 of the Guide)
  3. remove the existing connection from the Thermistor NTC printed circuit board (PCB) pad
  4. attach the loose yellow wire from the CA-DP cable to the Thermistor NTC pad
  5. follow the steps in section 7.7 of the Guide:
    1. remove the tiny R17 resistor
    2. attach a 390 or 470 ohm pulldown resistor to the temp sensor wire to Gnd
    3. configure Setup
The pulldown resistor in step 5b is best attached as close to the temp sensor as possible, but will work even if placed inside the CA. You may find it easiest to position it at the controller 6 pin hall/temp sensor connector across the black and red-with-black-shrink wires. It can also be placed inside the CA across the NTC and any Gnd (G) pad. Be very careful when removing the R17 pullup resistor so the PCB is not damaged. Do not attempt this unless you have an iron with a very small tip.

Normally, Paul makes these alterations and does the configuration which is a real plus when buying a MAC+V3 from EM3EV.... :D

(previous post about V3 hook up to older EM3EV V2 compatible controller is here...)
Last edited by teklektik on Dec 30 2013 10:43am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by RC_guy » Dec 29 2013 9:16pm

Yeah next time I will buy from Paul the whole setup. But when I bought this one, V3 was not available and everyone told me it would be pretty much plug and play to add a CA later :wink:

Wait a second here, I bought the DPS version only because they told me that is what I needed.
Now I am thinking that it would make a simpler installation (less wires) if I used the halls for my speed reading. Would I need to modify much?
The only drawback I can see is that I use some 26 x 2.2 So wheel circumference will be influenced by tire pressure and temperature a bit more on the back wheel due to more weight on that wheel.

But frankly I never liked those magnets that spin in wheels and then you either loose them, a branch catches the wire or there are many other good reasons to try to not have a speedometer cable
Last edited by RC_guy on Dec 29 2013 9:33pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by RC_guy » Dec 29 2013 9:31pm

Can it be a regular resistor? The manual does not mention a pull down?

Thanks

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