Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2014 2:51pm

An updated version of the Unoffical User Guide Errata Document is available here.

An updated Guide is in the works, but there are some re-organizations and additions that are taking a while. Since the downloads are clicking right along lately, a section of the new Guide was plopped into the Errata Doc to get some of the new material out there.

The new section is a little out of context in the Errata doc but hopefully will present the hookup options more clearly. It has pictorial presentations of hookups for normal/legacy modes for the two interface types (V2 compatible/Large Screen Compatible) as well as illustrated options for hooking up the throttle.
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2014 3:11pm

ferret wrote: Problems is, that no matter what I do with the throttle, the OUT voltage is 0.00v.
The IN voltage changes according to the throttle position as expected.
There is so little configured at this point that there aren't too many possibilities:
If you have configured only the few parameters described in the Guide and your throttle is in PassThru mode, then here's a couple of thoughts:
  • You may have connected ebrakes and the signal is suppressing output as indicated by a brake lever glyph on the Main screen.
  • You may have misconfigured the battery and the LVC limit is suppressing the throttle as indicated by a flashing 'V' on the Main screen.
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ferret   1 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ferret » Feb 27 2014 3:44pm

Thanks for the reply.
I checked and the throttle is in pass-through mode and neither the brake lever icon, the flashing V or any of the limit flags seem to be active.

Any other thoughts?

Could it be something hardware related? Or maybe a problem with firmware flash (I got the CA with P5 and I flashed P6 before hooking it up)?

Avner.
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ferret   1 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ferret » Feb 28 2014 1:21pm

Update.
I discovered the cause of the throttle out voltage not changing. It is the setting of ThrO-> UpRate to 0.00. The UUG instructs doing it on page 17 but it makes the output voltage freeze.

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 28 2014 8:38pm

ferret wrote:Update.
I discovered the cause of the throttle out voltage not changing. It is the setting of ThrO-> UpRate to 0.00. The UUG instructs doing it on page 17 but it makes the output voltage freeze.
Actually, the UUG instructs to set it to 0.00 Sec/V which is impossible with p6. A firmware update altered the original Sec/V to V/Sec so the inverse setting should be used: 99.99 V/Sec.

So - this is a doc bug, but not for the reason you thought! :D

Odd this wasn't reported earlier - I guess folks are just breezing through that section....
Good catch - Thanks!
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 28 2014 9:02pm

A updated version of the Unofficial User Guide Errata Document is available here.

An entry has been added to correct the ThrO->xxxRate error reported above
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 03 2014 8:13pm

A NEW version of the Unofficial User Guide is available here.

This updated version has lots more pictures and merges in the errata and experimental AutoTorqPAS docs. The flow of the installation steps has been reworked and hopefully is a bit friendlier. There are quite a few additions, including default settings for Thun and TDCM BBs.

Enjoy!

BTW
icecube57-
  • Appendix D "Tuning Speed Control Gain Parameters" has been tinkered a bit. Please give this a try and see if it addresses your surging issues. The revised tuning procedure hasn't been fully tested but it worked reasonably well on my bike last summer. Since you are having PAS issues, you will want to follow the steps using Power Throttle. No promises, but....
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hjns   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Mar 04 2014 8:38am

Wow, Tek, you are the greatest!

You really should receive a percentage of every sold CAv3 from Grin. Without your guidance, not many people would be able to install the thing in the right way.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 04 2014 3:19pm

Thanks for the kind words - appreciated!

I just noticed a critical typo in the speedo pickup mounting instructions and also noticed that I had forgotten to add stuff to the Temp Sensor section about NTC sensor beta and the EM3EV style of routing the temp signal.

Sorry about the false start... it's not so good when the author and proofreader are the same... :D
  • An updated version of the Guide has been posted and is available here.
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CEGB   100 mW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by CEGB » Mar 04 2014 4:48pm

Mistakes or not, its a lot easier to follow. Just set up my throttle in about 2 minutes flat. This guide made it really very easy...

Thanks.

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rscamp   1 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rscamp » Mar 04 2014 7:11pm

There are really smart people. There are very helpful people. There are hard working people. Once in a while you find someone who is all three. :)
Rob
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Merlin   1 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Merlin » Mar 05 2014 4:31am

hjns wrote:Wow, Tek, you are the greatest!

You really should receive a percentage of every sold CAv3 from Grin. Without your guidance, not many people would be able to install the thing in the right way.

true true...
but words are easy to say....words = silver....doing = gold.

Whats about donate with Paypal to tek?
a few bugs from everyone is not much, and to appreciate his REALLY GOOD HARD, OVER YEARS, WORK would be nice huh?

Every $ will be welcome...

so Tek, do not be shy, let me/us know your paypal Address =)

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hjns   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Mar 05 2014 4:58am

Merlin wrote: so Tek, do not be shy, let me/us know your paypal Address =)
Fully agree.

Tek, I don't care whether you need the money (although if you really need it, giving money is all the sweeter), but I would like to pay something back. If you can think of a way to let us do so, I would be happy to donate.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 05 2014 10:34am

Hey guys - Many thanks for the kind thoughts and generous offer, but there have been so many folks who have contributed their time and expertise over the years. I've personally benefited so much from ES, it's good to have an opportunity give a little back.

So what say we just help some others get the satisfaction of building a bike that makes their lives a little happier?
:D
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chvidgov.bc.ca   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by chvidgov.bc.ca » Mar 05 2014 1:05pm

All this philosophizing about pay-it-forward gives me a warm feeling inside. Anybody want help with their build? After I visit my Quaker friends?

A great way of looking at the world.

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 06 2014 4:21pm

Merlin wrote: Weight: ~36kg / 80lbs ...Total Weight ~130Kg / 285lbs
Motor: HS4080 DD
Voltage: 100
Max Power: 12KW

But this is really Max. Just to show(me) what is possible :P

Preset 1: Legal Mode. 25kph. 800w Limit. Throttle 6Kph only. Using PAS
Preset 2: Daily Mode. no Speedlimit. 1500w on PAS regulated by a Potentiometer. 5KW Max with Throttle.
Preset 3: "Race Mode". No Limits at all. Except 125A
Merlin wrote:
teklektik wrote: The choices:
  1. Preset 1 uses the same 'max watts' value for both throttle and PAS Assist. This sort of makes sense since you can only use the throttle up to 6kph anyway and I think there is only a single max power level for PAS and/or throttle specified in the EU spec.
  2. Use an AutoTrqPAS setup for Preset (2) and a simple AutoPAS setup for Preset (1). This will allow different power levels for throttle and PAS Assist in both presets. Preset (2) will be RPM-scaled so you get more assist the faster you pedal. This seems to make sense in that Preset (1) is unlikely to actually be used - it's a 'legal compliance' setting for the police that it not really desirable so the simple (no rpm-scaling) PAS assist is okay there...
So - which of these is the way you wish to go?
I think Option 2 is the right one. As i remember i tried the AutoTrqPAS function. But the Motor dont start on Pedaling.
How can i test it that my settings are right?
As I PMed - apologies for the delay - I somehow missed your post with the 'choice' selection.... :oops:

Anyhow I think the image below lays out something that will work for you. I tested this as best as possible on the bench V3, but no promises. The comments pretty much explain things, but:
  • You had mentioned some interaction between tuning presets so setting up 1 messed up the others. I think this layout pretty much separates the tuning so you won't corrupt past work as you set up additional presets.
  • the overall idea is to use Current Throttle so throttle response is controlled by AGain and you can use WGain exclusively to tune your PAS. The problem is that you have a 12kW bike and the PI/PID controllers apply up full power (in this case as it is limited by MaxCurrent) so there can be quite a powerful getaway. WGain will let you moderate that.
  • To get different PAS limits for Presets 1 and 2, we use two different PAS modes: preset 1 limits by PASWatts and Prest 2 limits by all the settings made in the TRQ SENSOR section - which you should select from the AutoTrqPAS section of the new Guide. The numbers in the image should be good for 1500W of power at 90rpm cadence. I just grabbed the first setting off the AutoTorqPAS tables that would hit 1500W, but post back if the range is not good - I may be able to re-scale something.
  • The speed limiting in Preset 1 is set by the MaxSpeed and the responsiveness controlled by the 3 Speed Gain parameters. I revised the speed tuning procedure in the new Guide, so you can give that a try (basically, I'm suggesting you tune it as before but using Power Throttle instead of Speed Throttle - we do this because you are speed limiting using PAS which uses the Power PID controller - switch the throttle type back to Current Throttle after tuning). The numbers I have in the image are from my bike (which is only 3.3kW. Give them a try first before you try the Guide Speed Tuning procedure to see if they work for you - no promises.
In the image, I suggest you may be able to use PAS in Preset 3 by setting it like Preset 2 but with a high MaxCurrent. The high power of Preset 3 may upset the overshoot or stability of the PAS and so may not work well, but you can give it a try as a last step.

Anyhow, hope this helps.... post back if things go awry with this! :D
3PresetPasSetup-Merlin.png
Suggested parameter values for specified Preset setup
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botz244   10 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by botz244 » Mar 15 2014 8:14pm

well its been while.finally got the program cable for the ca and it came back alive it worked but the voltage now is wack at 124 volt for 18s 3p .i programmed it and everything was good till go back to the screen and its at 124 volts .another thing it wont let me adjust the shunt down to .800 or .70 what i really need,it goes back to 9.6 . so the volatages are way off and the shunt is off. ive flashed it 3 times and still the same.the ebrakes work and have a off swicth now, its time to ride,i have the need for speed. help.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 16 2014 1:55am

botz244 wrote:... so the volatages are way off and the shunt is off. ive flashed it 3 times and still the same.
Sounds like your calibration values are corrupted.

Please follow the procedure in this post.
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botz244   10 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by botz244 » Mar 16 2014 9:24pm

thanks tekletek yep refreshed it and my v/v values were a little off works great now.yep now at 350 lbs loaded it pulls like a champ.ALSO HAD TO GO WITH THE KW settings to get my shunt reading right. also help with justin thanks. im goin to push it this week to se how many miles i can get from 18s3p lipo

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 17 2014 1:08am

botz244 wrote:another thing it wont let me adjust the shunt down to .800 or .70
botz244 wrote:...works great now.
...ALSO HAD TO GO WITH THE KW settings to get my shunt reading right.
Excellent news that you were able to resolve the issue. :D

I guess that it would be helpful to add a few words to the Guide stating the minimum RShunt value (which is 0.763 in LO mode). You can set it to 0.8 but not to 0.7 - the solution is as you note: switch to HI mode.

I will make an addition to clarify this for other folks. Thanks for the post!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cal3thousand » Mar 18 2014 5:10pm

teklektik wrote:Hey guys - Many thanks for the kind thoughts and generous offer, but there have been so many folks who have contributed their time and expertise over the years. I've personally benefited so much from ES, it's good to have an opportunity give a little back.

So what say we just help some others get the satisfaction of building a bike that makes their lives a little happier?
:D
PayItForward.png

Now, I have to make it my mission to take a noob off the streets and convert them and explain everything I may possibly learn from here! (Tek, your diligence is inspiring!)
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 18 2014 5:15pm

An updated version (3-0p6-e) of the Unofficial User Guide is available for download here.

No significant changes - this version has minor additions to address the need to use Hi shunt range for shunts < 0.763mOhm as per recent post above and adds a more thorough description of how torque-based PAS assist is computed using Setup parameters (from a post in a different thread).

EDIT: re-posted as 3-0p6-f due to minor page link screwup in the TOC. Very minor fix...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Mar 23 2014 9:52am

i have some connection problems. this is the third one i'm gonna install. :) i always remove ANY unnecessary wires (3 speed switch, power jack, pas plug etc ..). on the other hand i have a thermistor and an external speed pick up to install.

if you look at the plug pin out:
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (15.22 KiB) Viewed 2488 times
pin2 and pin3 are redundant as they can connect to the same point (shunt- and GND is the same level). can i remove S- from CA and re-use it as thermistor wire? and use the same GND wire for the speed pick up?
Capture2.JPG
Capture2.JPG (18.56 KiB) Viewed 2488 times
pin5 = speed. this will be used as external magnet speed pick up as written in the manual. do i need to use the upper G pad (as in the picture) of the CA? or may i reuse the lower already connected one, maybe make a bridge or are they connected internal already?

i hope i made myself clear, and i'm aware of that this CA can NOT be used on any other bike. but this is not my intention anyway. but doing it like it thought it out i can reduce the wiring to ONE wire going from CA to controller.

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by madin88 » Mar 23 2014 10:39am

normally there is not much current flowing across the GND wires so i believe all will work properly if you snap of the shunt- wire.
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Mar 23 2014 1:45pm

izeman wrote:if you look at the plug pin out:

pin2 and pin3 are redundant as they can connect to the same point (shunt- and GND is the same level). can i remove S- from CA and re-use it as thermistor wire? and use the same GND wire for the speed pick up?
They are not redundant. The measured voltage across the shunt is very small (for 30A and 1mOhm shunt = .030v) and the current is negligible. As with any ammeter/remote shunt arrangement, dedicated measurement wires ensure that no current flows though the shunt measurement wiring where wire resistance would artificially elevate the apparent shunt voltage. You can do the math depending on your particular installation, but a basic install with only CA and throttle is drawing 15ma. If you use the accessory power plug, that can jump to an Amp. Any of these currents running through the S- wire will impress a voltage upon it and disrupt the current measurement.

This shunt wiring modification is not recommended.
... this will be used as external magnet speed pick up as written in the manual. do i need to use the upper G pad (as in the picture) of the CA? or may i reuse the lower already connected one, maybe make a bridge or are they connected internal already?
All the 'G' pads are tied together on the PCB, so the speed pickup can be tied to the main, throttle, AuxIn, etc Gnd pads. I would try to avoid using the small-signal (G) pads that are paired with TRQ, NTC, or Vex (if you are using those features) but that is more of a 'best practices' recommendation than something that is likely to cause real problems. That said, the manual mentions the issue with sharing the temp sensor Gnd - this the same issue as with the shunt above - although much less acute. Some motors may share the temp and hall Gnds which can make the temp reading off a bit if a high-current accessory is plugged into the CA DC accessory socket.

Perhaps you might consider using some braided sheathing or ordering up an 8 conductor cable....
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