Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Sep 25, 2017 6:04 am

ebike11 wrote:Hi CA lovers!
Im installing a second CA3 on another motor but its a sealed mid drive motor. I have the motor already installed and functioning on the bike.
Do you think splicing the cycle analyst temperature wire onto a phase wire close to where the phase wire enters the motor would be ok? Instead of having to disassemble the whole motor etc? But id imagine the temperatures would be different but would the temp. be fairly close that way??
no way. the winding's and phase wire's temperature are FAR away.i have 10# phase wires. doing 100A+ phase current they just get hand warm and the motor can reach 100C+ at that time.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 25, 2017 11:19 am

What izeman said ^^^^^^^

However, although your specific proposal is unlikely to give good results, you may still be able to get some benefit from monitoring case temperature. The stator is mounted directly to the case and so the case will track what's happening on the stator in some fashion. The temp will be lower, will be affected by ambient temp (e.g. winter vs summer), and will lag temp changes to the windings depending on drive construction. So - if you are looking for warning of slow heat increases from high speed cruising or prolonged hill climbs, then you can look to case temp as a workable indicator. If you are looking to detect rapid overheating from "WooHoo!" riding, then case temps are going to lag too much and be too inaccurate to offer any protection.

On one of my bikes, I drilled a small hole in the axle and put the temp probe in the axle under the stator instead of pulling a new wire bundle. That strategy suffers from the same 'not-on-the-wind' shortfalls as the case monitoring scheme, but has worked fine for many thousands of miles doing thermal rollback on virtually every ride due a big honking hill on my ride. (Motor Temperature Monitoring via Axle).

If you want give this a try, I would recommend a ring mount thermistor - either purchased pre-made or DIY fabbed from an appropriate sized electrical ring terminal and whatever thermistor suits your fancy. The small (glass) sensors respond quicker and would be a better choice where you already have a sizeable reaction time penalty. Something like a 10ga or 8ga ring will give you a pretty good thickness of copper to conduct the heat. Pull a case bolt on your mid-drive at or near the internal stator mount and slip the ring underneath like a washer.

So - known suboptimal performance ahead of time, but possibly effective for your needs - and cheap to try :D

Here's a couple of snaps from eBay parts to illustrate the ring fabrication idea:
ringMountThermistor.png
ringMountThermistor.png (85.39 KiB) Viewed 838 times
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Sep 25, 2017 9:16 pm

teklektik wrote:If you want give this a try, I would recommend a ring mount thermistor - either purchased pre-made or DIY fabbed from an appropriate sized electrical ring terminal and whatever thermistor suits your fancy. The small (glass) sensors respond quicker and would be a better choice where you already have a sizeable reaction time penalty. Something like a 10ga or 8ga ring will give you a pretty good thickness of copper to conduct the heat. Pull a case bolt on your mid-drive at or near the internal stator mount and slip the ring underneath like a washer.

So - known suboptimal performance ahead of time, but possibly effective for your needs - and cheap to try :D

Here's a couple of snaps from eBay parts to illustrate the ring fabrication idea:
ringMountThermistor.png
Ok thanks..so you saying just use a ring connector on a motor casing bolt?? My casing sometimes gets hot to the touch after some after riding at 72V so hopefully it will measure it fairly accurately

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 26, 2017 9:39 am

ebike11 wrote:...so you saying just use a ring connector on a motor casing bolt??
Yep. You will need to set your temps pretty low, but the case monitoring should be helpful given the caveats above.

I can certainly understand not wanting to crack the case of a working mid-drive for a 'would be nice' enhancement - particularly if the bike is in regular use. At some point you will probably need to service your drive and can upgrade then to proper monitoring of the windings, but this seems a quick upgrade with low risk for the near term. Might want to get an extra thermistor for an upgrade when you order so you have one on the shelf should the need for motor repair come up unexpectedly (doesn't it always...?).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MBV » Sep 27, 2017 7:27 am

I have a which for a function. I have built a cyclone mid drive bike with a phaserunner controller and a cycle analyst v3. In a mid drive there will always be some slack in the drive train because of the chain(s) and freewheels. During acceleration or constant speed it is fine and the throttle is smooth. When backing the throttle of and the motor comes to a stop while the bike is still moving the motor have to take up the slack in the drive train when you hit the throttle again. The phaserunner will by design try to spin the motor up to full rpm regardless how little throttle you give. This means the motor will spin way faster than your drive train when the freewheels engage, resulting in a loud bang and some oscillations before everything settles again.
One way to overcome this would be to keep the motor engaged all the time. And this is where my which comes in.
Would it be possible to make the cycle analyst to output a preset minimum throttle voltage given that the vehicle is still moving? “Min Out@speed” If/when the speed is zero it would drop down to whatever you have set “Min Out” to again.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Sep 27, 2017 8:15 am

MBV wrote:...Would it be possible to make the cycle analyst to output a preset minimum throttle voltage given that the vehicle is still moving? “Min Out@speed” If/when the speed is zero it would drop down to whatever you have set “Min Out” to again.
@tek: haha, does this sound familiar to your ears? :)
@mbv: we discussed this as an additional feature already. my approach would have been to modify the "fast ramp" setting. as it is implemented right now it does exactly the opposite thing of what we want. it raises the throttle output voltage super quick, as long as the load (demand) is low. what we would need, is a SLOW ramping of the throttle (or maybe speed throttle approach) as long as load is low (until the drive train is loaded) and then ramp up quickly.

i still hope that this feature is considered helpful for some of us.

i mean switching from speed throttle to current throttle would help as well. so if you open the throttle slightly, the motor only gets some little amps, as it tries to reach little rpm (which can be done with little current), then at some point (most probably at 50-70% of the no-load current) the chain slag is gone and you can apply full power without putting super high stress on the drive train (and motor/gears).

btw: leveraging the throttle output to "pre-load" the motor somehow works, but makes the bike crawl, and checking for ZERO speed is mandatory for two reasons: first this may make the bike crawl at zero throttle, second, there are a lot of controllers, that will not end their after-boot safe checks, if they sense an open throttle. but as i think more of it, the idea of applying a pre-defined current at speed above a pre-defined speed could be a proper and easy way to address our problems. still another "fast-ramp" logic would be even better imho.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 27, 2017 10:32 am

izeman wrote: @tek: haha, does this sound familiar to your ears? :)
Sure does - :D - your timezone got you a jump on this one, so I bow to your prompt response!
izeman wrote: @mbv: we discussed this as an additional feature already...
izeman has been a proponent of this freewheel support for a while now and ran some tests for us to check out some basic feasibility. (Thanks again!)

His remarks are pretty much spot on - the only addition that I would make is to note that there are differences in controller behavior for the more mainstream voltage/speed throttle controllers (e.g. Infinion, etc) and true current/torque throttle controllers (e.g. Phaserunner). Superficially, we see this in the CA3 by the throttle modes that are typically configured for these two types as Current Throttle and PassThru respectively. In the latter case, the aggressiveness with which the controller seeks the target torque is largely the business of the controller and not directly controllable by throttle voltage - which is the sole means of control for the CA. However, that family of controllers may more readily allow chain/drive preloading. Anyhow, the point being that these two very different controller behaviors almost certainly would require different strategies in the CA and might not be suitably supportable for both types.

So - to the question at hand: yep - this is on the list to pursue. That said, it's not on the 2017 road map which is focused on finalizing a formal 3.1 production release. Save for some new features that are presently unreleased in 3.1 beta, other new features 'on the list' will be candidates for subsequent 3.2 beta versions.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MBV » Sep 28, 2017 9:32 am

teklektik wrote:
izeman wrote: @tek: haha, does this sound familiar to your ears? :)
Sure does - :D - your timezone got you a jump on this one, so I bow to your prompt response!
izeman wrote: @mbv: we discussed this as an additional feature already...
izeman has been a proponent of this freewheel support for a while now and ran some tests for us to check out some basic feasibility. (Thanks again!)

His remarks are pretty much spot on - the only addition that I would make is to note that there are differences in controller behavior for the more mainstream voltage/speed throttle controllers (e.g. Infinion, etc) and true current/torque throttle controllers (e.g. Phaserunner). Superficially, we see this in the CA3 by the throttle modes that are typically configured for these two types as Current Throttle and PassThru respectively. In the latter case, the aggressiveness with which the controller seeks the target torque is largely the business of the controller and not directly controllable by throttle voltage - which is the sole means of control for the CA. However, that family of controllers may more readily allow chain/drive preloading. Anyhow, the point being that these two very different controller behaviors almost certainly would require different strategies in the CA and might not be suitably supportable for both types.

So - to the question at hand: yep - this is on the list to pursue. That said, it's not on the 2017 road map which is focused on finalizing a formal 3.1 production release. Save for some new features that are presently unreleased in 3.1 beta, other new features 'on the list' will be candidates for subsequent 3.2 beta versions.
Thank you guys for prompt and thought through answers! I'm glad I am not the only one struggeling with this :-) Looking forward to see what you are coming up with in the 3.1 release. But can't wait for the 3.2 release, hehe. Keep up the good work!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Sep 29, 2017 11:17 pm

Hi guys
Just wiring up my 2nd CA3 woo hoo!
I was wondering, is there anyway to turn off the back light while still powered? Sorry if this has been asked

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Sep 30, 2017 5:00 am

No. Not w/o hardware modification.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Sep 30, 2017 5:22 am

izeman wrote:No. Not w/o hardware modification.
I see. I think it would be a nice function if possible

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Sep 30, 2017 6:54 am

Sorry just had another quick one...i have a cyclone mid drive motor with no temp wires.
I just installed my CA3 and wired up the CA shunt because im using the cyclone motor and controller.
There is a connector with yellow/black wires
Do I connect them both or just yellow? To the motor bolts?
I dont want to open my motor at this time since its already installed

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 30, 2017 12:21 pm

ebike11 wrote:i have a cyclone mid drive motor with no temp wires.
I just installed my CA3 and wired up the CA shunt because im using the cyclone motor and controller.
There is a connector with yellow/black wires
Do I connect them both or just yellow? To the motor bolts?
Several variations of shunt hookup are called out in the Unofficial User Guide. In particular, "Appendix D. Adding a CA-DP Connector to a Generic Controller" illustrates how to hook up a generic controller to a CA - works for either CA2 or CA3. If you are using a wheel pickup, you can re-purpose the yellow wire in the CA-DP cable and tie it to the NTC input on the CA PCB. At the shunt end, attach the thermistor across the black and yellow leads.

That said, the best plan is always to run a couple of additional wires to the CA for a thermistor - this two wire approach is better since it isolates the temp sensor from effects of current drawn through the CA-DP cable (e.g. via the CA Vbatt accessory plug), but that effect is minimal so don't unnecessarily inconvenience your wiring if two wires is somehow a PITA. For instance, you can cheat a bit if you are using the CA-DP cable yellow wire as intended for the hall SPD signal and really only want to run one wire to the CA (because of some existing multi-wire cabling restriction, etc) -- you can run the the Thermistor GND wire to the thin black shunt breakout cable lead and run another (new) thermistor wire to the the CA3 thermistor NTC connector (pin 2 -- yellow).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Sep 30, 2017 3:04 pm

izeman wrote:No. Not w/o hardware modification.
I also noticed my 2 year old CA3 has brighter backlights compared to my new one. My new CA3 is a bit dim. Not a big deal. Just noticable when they are on side by side. I see no option for LCD brightness and as you mentioned no on/off backlight setting

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Oct 01, 2017 11:27 am

Search this thread. Tek posted some info about backlight.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Oct 01, 2017 5:31 pm

izeman wrote:Search this thread. Tek posted some info about backlight.
was it fairly recent?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Oct 02, 2017 3:14 am

ebike11 wrote:
izeman wrote:Search this thread. Tek posted some info about backlight.
was it fairly recent?
ok. i did the job for you :) -> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... sf=msgonly
Capture.JPG
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Oct 02, 2017 6:00 am

izeman wrote:
ebike11 wrote:
izeman wrote:Search this thread. Tek posted some info about backlight.
was it fairly recent?
ok. i did the job for you :) -> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... sf=msgonly
Capture.JPG
thanks!
actually both CA3s are running on the same battery pack. just one CA3 is brighter than the other straight out of the box.
I am not confident opening the CA3s up
I have 2 motors, 2 controllers and 1 large battery pack that is wired into both controllers as well as seperate throttles, one on each handgrip lol
its kind of an odd set up but my goal is to have the quietness of a hub and a mid drive to tackle hills etc.
so far its all running smoothly

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Brightening CA Backlight

Post by teklektik » Oct 02, 2017 11:18 am

ebike11 wrote: actually both CA3s are running on the same battery pack. just one CA3 is brighter than the other straight out of the box.
I am not confident opening the CA3s up.
As the posts in izeman's search revealed, the CA brightness is largely a matter of the +5V current drawn by the CA and it's accessories (throttle, etc). So - if you have a three position switch or ebrakes on one CA but not the other, the brightness might be different. Different LED batches might yield slightly different brightness, but I can't speak to that probability.

As pointed out in post (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1263588), it's possible to dim the display a bit by bypassing current around the LCD module. Similarly, it's possible to brighten the backlight by adding a load resistor in parallel with the 5V regulator to draw a bit more current through the LCD module. In that case, you would still need to pay attention to the current limitations determined by the pack voltage as called out in the Guide. For instance, since the CA 5V supply is drawing about 10ma, you might add a load resistor to draw maybe 10-50% more current (1-5ma).

Anyhow, since you don't feel comfortable cracking the case, you can go after this by directly increasing the 5V regulator load with an external resistor. This is probably the 'hackiest' strategy, but will work fine if you need a no-messing-with-CA-internals approach - just pay attention to the overall current inventory as mentioned above. So - you might try jumping a 1K resistor across the +5V and Gnd pins of the AuxPot or Throttle connectors. This would boost the current draw 5V/1K = 5ma which will visibly brighten the backlight. You could make up a super short M/F JST pass-through extender that has the power leads jumpered with the resistor of choice (use a small 1/8 or 1/10W part - there's no power to speak of). This would let you do the fabrication off the bike on the bench and then just plug in the gizmo when it's ready with no chance of taking your bike out of service with a fabrication accident.
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Re: Brightening CA Backlight

Post by ebike11 » Oct 03, 2017 1:24 am

teklektik wrote:
ebike11 wrote: actually both CA3s are running on the same battery pack. just one CA3 is brighter than the other straight out of the box.
I am not confident opening the CA3s up.
As the posts in izeman's search revealed, the CA brightness is largely a matter of the +5V current drawn by the CA and it's accessories (throttle, etc). So - if you have a three position switch or ebrakes on one CA but not the other, the brightness might be different. Different LED batches might yield slightly different brightness, but I can't speak to that probability.

As pointed out in post (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8#p1263588), it's possible to dim the display a bit by bypassing current around the LCD module. Similarly, it's possible to brighten the backlight by adding a load resistor in parallel with the 5V regulator to draw a bit more current through the LCD module. In that case, you would still need to pay attention to the current limitations determined by the pack voltage as called out in the Guide. For instance, since the CA 5V supply is drawing about 10ma, you might add a load resistor to draw maybe 10-50% more current (1-5ma).

Anyhow, since you don't feel comfortable cracking the case, you can go after this by directly increasing the 5V regulator load with an external resistor. This is probably the 'hackiest' strategy, but will work fine if you need a no-messing-with-CA-internals approach - just pay attention to the overall current inventory as mentioned above. So - you might try jumping a 1K resistor across the +5V and Gnd pins of the AuxPot or Throttle connectors. This would boost the current draw 5V/1K = 5ma which will visibly brighten the backlight. You could make up a super short M/F JST pass-through extender that has the power leads jumpered with the resistor of choice (use a small 1/8 or 1/10W part - there's no power to speak of). This would let you do the fabrication off the bike on the bench and then just plug in the gizmo when it's ready with no chance of taking your bike out of service with a fabrication accident.
Thanks for the info
I think ill go the 1k resistor jumping method but ill have to order a resistor as i have nothing at the moment unless there is an alternative solution.
I have plenty of M/F short JST connectors though. If i jumped the 5v to GROUND. of the AuxPot with wires only, what would happen?

Also sorry to ask you another question but i have my CA3 hooked up on my bike to my cyclone motor and cyclone controller using also the Grin shunt. My throttle wires are as follows:

green at throttle TO green at JST plug on CA3 (NOTE: black and red wires at CA3 JST plug are unused)
green from grin shunt to green to controller throttle plug
Red and black from throttle TO red and black of controller throttle plug
Im hoping this is correct.

I set my CA3 to "pass thru". Is this correct? The motor is still spinning very slowly and the display showing 5V of power constantly going through the motor when the throttle isnt even being touched. When i turn the throttle it powers as normal but when i let go of the throttle 5v is still flowing through.
Would you know what i need to adjust? I want the throttle/CA3 to be in Normal mode so that i can use cruise function.
Thanks so much!

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Re: Brightening CA Backlight

Post by teklektik » Oct 03, 2017 2:35 am

ebike11 wrote:If i jumped the 5v to GROUND. of the AuxPot with wires only, what would happen?
You would short out the CA 5V regulator and very shortly your CA would be dead.
ebike11 wrote: ...i have my CA3 hooked up on my bike to my cyclone motor and cyclone controller using also the Grin shunt. My throttle wires are as follows:

green at throttle TO green at JST plug on CA3 (NOTE: black and red wires at CA3 JST plug are unused)
green from grin shunt to green to controller throttle plug
Red and black from throttle TO red and black of controller throttle plug
Im hoping this is correct.
Running the black throttle wire back to the controller is not a good practice - it should go to the CA. You can run the throttle 5V from the controller if you wish, but it's unclear why you would bother for a 52V system - at that voltage the CA can power the throttle without difficulty. That said, what you've done should work -- but if you plan on drawing power from the CA power port, you may need to increase your throttle deadband region to avoid throttle creep and autocruise dropouts due to that throttle/controller Gnd connection.
ebike11 wrote: I set my CA3 to "pass thru". Is this correct? The motor is still spinning very slowly and the display showing 5V of power constantly going through the motor when the throttle isnt even being touched. When i turn the throttle it powers as normal but when i let go of the throttle 5v is still flowing through.
Would you know what i need to adjust?
The motor creep and high idle power indicate you haven't done the installation steps in the Guide. This specific problem is addressed as part of the instructions, so... do all the steps - don't skip any - and do them exactly as described.
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Re: Brightening CA Backlight

Post by ebike11 » Oct 03, 2017 3:23 am

teklektik wrote:
ebike11 wrote:If i jumped the 5v to GROUND. of the AuxPot with wires only, what would happen?
You would short out the CA 5V regulator and very shortly your CA would be dead.
ebike11 wrote: ...i have my CA3 hooked up on my bike to my cyclone motor and cyclone controller using also the Grin shunt. My throttle wires are as follows:

green at throttle TO green at JST plug on CA3 (NOTE: black and red wires at CA3 JST plug are unused)
green from grin shunt to green to controller throttle plug
Red and black from throttle TO red and black of controller throttle plug
Im hoping this is correct.
Running the black throttle wire back to the controller is not a good practice - it should go to the CA. You can run the throttle 5V from the controller if you wish, but it's unclear why you would bother for a 52V system - at that voltage the CA can power the throttle without difficulty. That said, what you've done should work -- but if you plan on drawing power from the CA power port, you may need to increase your throttle deadband region to avoid throttle creep and autocruise dropouts due to that throttle/controller Gnd connection.
ebike11 wrote: I set my CA3 to "pass thru". Is this correct? The motor is still spinning very slowly and the display showing 5V of power constantly going through the motor when the throttle isnt even being touched. When i turn the throttle it powers as normal but when i let go of the throttle 5v is still flowing through.
Would you know what i need to adjust?
The motor creep and high idle power indicate you haven't done the installation steps in the Guide. This specific problem is addressed as part of the instructions, so... do all the steps - don't skip any - and do them exactly as described.
Ok thx!
So you recommend all 3 wires GND 5V and GREEN from the throttle to go directly to the CA JST and leave the cyclone controller throttle connector unused? It would be easier and cleaner but then where dk i connect the GREEN from the grin shunt?
Thx

Ok thx fo

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Adding CA Connector to Generic Controller

Post by teklektik » Oct 03, 2017 11:13 am

ebike11 wrote: So you recommend ... leave the cyclone controller throttle connector unused?
??
No - I did not say to change that.

A picture is worth a thousand words - again - please download the Guide and follow the installation steps. The Guide has specific wiring diagrams for installing/wiring your CA and shunt (p 19).

You might examine the diagram in the later section "Appendix D. Adding a CA-DP Connector to a Generic Controller". This illustrates all your components in one diagram. The shunt/controller combination shown in the Appendix is a functional replacement for a controller with a built-in CA-DP connector. Although illustrated with a CA3 plugged in for Normal mode operation, the shunt/controller wiring and new CA-DP connector will work for CA2 or CA3 in either legacy or normal modes. That said, you can sleaze a bit on the generality and use the hookup from page 19 if you prefer (i.e. omit resistor and plug green shunt wire directly into the controller throttle connector).

Do not add extra power or ground wires - the diagrams are complete and work without modification.
CA-genericController3.png
Diagram from "Appendix D. Adding a CA-DP Connector to a Generic Controller"
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Last edited by teklektik on Oct 05, 2017 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brightening CA Backlight

Post by ebike11 » Oct 03, 2017 11:57 pm

teklektik wrote:
ebike11 wrote: So you recommend ... leave the cyclone controller throttle connector unused?
??
No - I did not say to change that.

A picture is worth a thousand words - again - please download the Guide and follow the installation steps. The Guide has specific wiring diagrams for installing/wiring your CA and shunt (p 19).

You might examine the diagram in the later section "Appendix D. Adding a CA-DP Connector to a Generic Controller". This illustrates all your components in one diagram. The shunt/controller combination shown in the Appendix is a functional replacement for a controller with a built-in CA-DP connector. Although illustrated with a CA3 plugged in for Normal mode operation, the shunt/controller wiring and new CA-DP connector will work for CA2 or CA3 in either legacy or normal modes. That said, you can sleaze a bit on the generality and use the hookup from page 19 if you prefer (i.e. omit resistor and plug green shunt wire directly into the controller throttle connector).

Do not add extra power or ground wires - the diagrams are complete and work without modification.
CA-genericController3.png
Thanks for the diagram! I just hooked everything as pictured but ill double check, however im getting a strange flashing battery icon on the CA3. It flashes from nkrmal battery icon to a narrow battery icon constantly. When i twist the throttle the motor doesnt move hoever i can see the throttle icon moving up and down. Would you know what this flashing battery icon would be from? I searched the guide but couldnt see that icon.
Thanks again!

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teklektik
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 05, 2017 8:11 am

ebike11 wrote:im getting a strange flashing battery icon on the CA3.
...
I searched the guide but couldnt see that icon.
CA3_mainStatusScreenTempAlert.png
CA3_mainStatusScreenTempAlert.png (73.46 KiB) Viewed 471 times
Again - please do the installation steps....
CA3_basicInstallation.png
CA3_basicInstallation.png (43.65 KiB) Viewed 471 times
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