Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Ingo
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm

teklektik wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:18 pm
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 6:50 am
my kelly controller has a "meter" output... that means it copys the halls signal. sin/cos signal at my motor.
but at the meteroutput comes +12v out...(normaly it must be 5v..) can the CA can handle +12V at Speed and PAS input ??
Not really.
I believe you are stuck assembling some voltage dividers.
hm.. ok... mybe its a mistake at my kelly controller....
at the new B21 firmware are some strange things going on.. : my CA tells me that the setup has changed at boot up (most from km to mi), sometimes no throttle output, my digital aux does not work ( left tip showes me 0,86 V ,middle 1,46V, right tip 0V) is that correct ?

maybe you have some answers .... :?

thanks :) ingo

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 03, 2018 2:26 pm

Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm
my CA tells me that the setup has changed at boot up (most from km to mi),
On every boot?
What do you mean "(most from km to mi)"?
Sorry - I don't clearly understand the problem or what the steps are that you have done to cause the problem to occur.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm
sometimes no throttle output
How is it configured? What are the circumstances of the failure? Do the main screen or Diagnostic screen show flashing error indicators?
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm
my digital aux does not work ( left tip showes me 0,86 V ,middle 1,46V, right tip 0V) is that correct ?
Is it a Digital Aux from Grin or did you build it yourself? Did it work properly in the past? If so, under what firmware? I don't know what you mean by 'tips'... Go to the SETUP AUX ANALOG screen and note the voltages when (1) no buttons are pushed, (2) the left is pushed, and (3) the right is pushed. What are the three displayed voltages?

Post up your setup file - that will answer a lot of questions.
I appreciate that you may be having issues, but you need to explain the details of the failure(s).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm

teklektik wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:26 pm
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm
my CA tells me that the setup has changed at boot up (most from km to mi),
On every boot?
What do you mean "(most from km to mi)"?
Sorry - I don't clearly understand the problem or what the steps are that you have done to cause the problem to occur.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm
sometimes no throttle output
How is it configured? What are the circumstances of the failure? Do the main screen or Diagnostic screen show flashing error indicators?
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 12:59 pm
my digital aux does not work ( left tip showes me 0,86 V ,middle 1,46V, right tip 0V) is that correct ?
Is it a Digital Aux from Grin or did you build it yourself? Did it work properly in the past? If so, under what firmware? I don't know what you mean by 'tips'... Go to the SETUP AUX ANALOG screen and note the voltages when (1) no buttons are pushed, (2) the left is pushed, and (3) the right is pushed. What are the three displayed voltages?

Post up your setup file - that will answer a lot of questions.
I appreciate that you may be having issues, but you need to explain the details of the failure(s).
hi,

sorry i´m from germany so my english is not the best ^^

yes on every boot
i setup the CA with Km and after reboot it is Mi again
no error indicators - Th-in is ok

i built it myself = with "tips" i mean buttons... sorry :(

no buttons = 1,46V - 4,99V Pot/voltage
left button = 0,76V
right button = 0v
BMW Beta21 Setup 03.2.2018.rar
(516 Bytes) Downloaded 3 times

Ingo
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 03, 2018 3:00 pm

next problem i noticed just now : i can read the setup with my computer but cannot write it.... CA showes me PC Connection...
Setup Utility showes me : cannot connect to CA.. etc.
before i built it in my motorcycle and updated it to b21 it worked fine

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 03, 2018 5:06 pm

Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm
i setup the CA with Km and after reboot it is Mi again
yes on every boot
I can't duplicate this, but I'll investigate further.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm
no error indicators - Th-in is ok
Do you get the 'Amps Limiting' flag?
I think the problem may be that your Digital Aux is running the current limiting down to Level 1 (0 Amps) - see the next section.
Start by turning off both analog and digital Aux features to get the CA basically running.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm
i built it myself = with "tips" i mean buttons... sorry :(

no buttons = 1,46V - 4,99V Pot/voltage
left button = 0,76V
right button = 0v
You didn't say what firmware you were running before b21, but from the voltages it looks like the problem is that your DIY buttons are using regular diodes. Unfortunately, There was a design change and the conventional diodes were replaced with Schottky diodes. This means that your unit is not producing the proper voltages and so the CA is confused. There are two ways to fix this: one is to rebuild your unit with Schottkys (e.g. 1N5711) and the second is to get a DigiAux board or a whole unit from Grin. This all happened quite a while back and so I can't speak to the present state of free stuff, but Justin was mailing out free boards to DIYers who got zinged by this design change. You could just hook up some wires to your buttons and everything worked. Justin can also tell you about the latest circuit resistor values - There was a minor change as I recollect.

I can't find the post about that stuff just now but here's the one about the Schottky change and a possible substitute diode part if you want to DIY.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1262509
email Justin at Grin if you want to pursue getting a board or button unit.

Anyhow, it looks like one or more issues relate to an outdated DigiAux Button assembly.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 3:00 pm
next problem i noticed just now : i can read the setup with my computer but cannot write it.... CA showes me PC Connection...
Setup Utility showes me : cannot connect to CA.. etc.
I don't know about this one. Since it was working and now is not, it sounds like you have a hung com port. I know it sounds like the usual idiot-level solution, but rebooting is really the easiest way to clear up these serial com driver issues.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jPas » Feb 03, 2018 8:18 pm

Just downloaded the new 1.54 setup program on Mac, it seems to read most of the values ok from my 3.1b13 cycle analyst v3.

However, in the setup program it lists for lifetime stats:
Odometer distance: 3310.75km
Lifetime Amp-hours: 905.82

But when I look in the trip stats screen on the Cycle Analyst on 3.1b13 it reads:
Totl Km 4918
TotAhrs: 1530

When I read the values with the older 1.31 Setup it does read the same values as the new setup program..

It's been a while since I updated last, so maybe I'm forgetting something?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am

teklektik wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 5:06 pm
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm
i setup the CA with Km and after reboot it is Mi again
yes on every boot
I can't duplicate this, but I'll investigate further.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm
no error indicators - Th-in is ok
Do you get the 'Amps Limiting' flag?
I think the problem may be that your Digital Aux is running the current limiting down to Level 1 (0 Amps) - see the next section.
Start by turning off both analog and digital Aux features to get the CA basically running.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 2:55 pm
i built it myself = with "tips" i mean buttons... sorry :(

no buttons = 1,46V - 4,99V Pot/voltage
left button = 0,76V
right button = 0v
You didn't say what firmware you were running before b21, but from the voltages it looks like the problem is that your DIY buttons are using regular diodes. Unfortunately, There was a design change and the conventional diodes were replaced with Schottky diodes. This means that your unit is not producing the proper voltages and so the CA is confused. There are two ways to fix this: one is to rebuild your unit with Schottkys (e.g. 1N5711) and the second is to get a DigiAux board or a whole unit from Grin. This all happened quite a while back and so I can't speak to the present state of free stuff, but Justin was mailing out free boards to DIYers who got zinged by this design change. You could just hook up some wires to your buttons and everything worked. Justin can also tell you about the latest circuit resistor values - There was a minor change as I recollect.

I can't find the post about that stuff just now but here's the one about the Schottky change and a possible substitute diode part if you want to DIY.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1262509
email Justin at Grin if you want to pursue getting a board or button unit.

Anyhow, it looks like one or more issues relate to an outdated DigiAux Button assembly.
Ingo wrote:
Feb 03, 2018 3:00 pm
next problem i noticed just now : i can read the setup with my computer but cannot write it.... CA showes me PC Connection...
Setup Utility showes me : cannot connect to CA.. etc.
I don't know about this one. Since it was working and now is not, it sounds like you have a hung com port. I know it sounds like the usual idiot-level solution, but rebooting is really the easiest way to clear up these serial com driver issues.


the CA i use in my motorbike is new , i never used it before, i update it from 3.04 to 3.1b21
i resett the CA (v3.1b21) now to default settings.. now it stays at Km :)
i disconnect the 2buttons / 1pot wiring and still no change
but still no throttle output (with bypass funktion it works)
i get no amps limiting flag
can not connect to CA with PC
(i built this 2 buttons, Pot cable to my other bike and there it works well with the diods and resistors like you proposed) (V3,1b11)

I thank you in advance for the effort to answer me .. it is certainly not easy :cry:

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Dartman » Feb 04, 2018 12:20 pm

Did I bricked my CA3? Couple years ago I had boot issue, which fix it self some how. Now boot issue came back and CA boot successfully one of third boot. I decide to try old boot fix trick, I flashed CA3_BootFix_V01.hex and I select option 2. Now CA not boot any more, only back light come on :( Do I throw it to trash, or is there still something to do?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 04, 2018 12:24 pm

Ingo wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am
the CA i use in my motorbike is new , i never used it before, i update it from 3.04 to 3.1b21
i resett the CA (v3.1b21) now to default settings.. now it stays at Km :)
I glad you were able to resolve this issue. Unfortunately, it may point to some issue with the upgrade from 3.04 which is not so good.
Anyhow - thanks for posting about this. These issue reports from beta testing are what we need. :D

Ingo wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am
i disconnect the 2buttons / 1pot wiring and still no change
but still no throttle output (with bypass funktion it works)
i get no amps limiting flag
can not connect to CA with PC
Did you also disable the AUX functions in Setup? (Just checkong...)
If so, these are problems. I was unable to reproduce your failures using your setup file and since you have rebuilt a setup from defaults, it isn't related to importing old (previous) settings. Good to see the new ByPass Throttle mode is working - that's actually an interesting test result.
  • Regarding the 'no throttle problem':
    Please check the AGain, WGain, and the three Speed Gains and correct them to defaults or your previously determined values. Also try unplugging your ebrakes and checking the ebrake polarity (it's probably not the brakes or you would see the brake icon, but just checking...).
  • Regarding the 'no CA communication' problem:
    Please start the Setup Utility fresh and try to read your settings from the CA just once. Describe the errors, etc you are getting. Then post here the file "verbose_output.txt" in the installation directory for the Setup Utility.

Ingo wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am
(i built this 2 buttons, Pot cable to my other bike and there it works well with the diods and resistors like you proposed) (V3,1b11)
Yep. The problem is that a while after b11, the regular diode design was revised to use Schottkys and a different resistor. This was a hard decision to make because of folks like you who had made an investment in custom builds. Anyhow, email Justin at Grin, and he will try to help you get this problem resolved. I've messaged him about your situation. One way to fix this is to run the switch wires out to the little PCB and then on to the connector. Just sleeve the PCB in-inline with the cable using some heatshrink. This isn't as elegant as a custom build with discrete parts inside the switch housing, but it's pretty quick as a repair and the bulge in the cable isn't too big. Or just use a whole new Grin DigiAux switch - at least temporarily...
Last edited by teklektik on Feb 04, 2018 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 04, 2018 12:39 pm

Dartman wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 12:20 pm
Did I bricked my CA3?
Golly - the old boot problem!
Please contact Grin Technical support for assistance. This was a while back and the details have faded from memory so best to go directly to Justin and the hardware guys to get help with this.
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3.1 Beta 21 Tip

Post by teklektik » Feb 04, 2018 1:03 pm

3.1 Beta 21 Tip

Whenever there is a change to an Aux input, a transient pop-up screen appears detailing the new setting. This can linger a while if a pot is being adjusted which obscures the normal screen display.

3.1b21 has a new feature called Disp->AuxChgDisp that provides an alternate display option for Aux Limiting Changes on the Main Screen. The new option instead switches the Custom Field in the upper right corner to display the AuxA or AuxD setting. This leaves the remainder of the main screen visible for the duration of the adjustment. Normal Custom Field operation is restored when the adjustment is complete. The feature applies only to the Main Screen - the pop-up will appear on all other status screens. This is the default behavior.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 04, 2018 4:23 pm

teklektik wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 12:24 pm
Ingo wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am
the CA i use in my motorbike is new , i never used it before, i update it from 3.04 to 3.1b21
i resett the CA (v3.1b21) now to default settings.. now it stays at Km :)
I glad you were able to resolve this issue. Unfortunately, it may point to some issue with the upgrade from 3.04 which is not so good.
Anyhow - thanks for posting about this. These issue reports from beta testing are what we need. :D

Ingo wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am
i disconnect the 2buttons / 1pot wiring and still no change
but still no throttle output (with bypass funktion it works)
i get no amps limiting flag
can not connect to CA with PC
Did you also disable the AUX functions in Setup? (Just checkong...)
If so, these are problems. I was unable to reproduce your failures using your setup file and since you have rebuilt a setup from defaults, it isn't related to importing old (previous) settings. Good to see the new ByPass Throttle mode is working - that's actually an interesting test result.
  • Regarding the 'no throttle problem':
    Please check the AGain, WGain, and the three Speed Gains and correct them to defaults or your previously determined values. Also try unplugging your ebrakes and checking the ebrake polarity (it's probably not the brakes or you would see the brake icon, but just checking...).
  • Regarding the 'no CA communication' problem:
    Please start the Setup Utility fresh and try to read your settings from the CA just once. Describe the errors, etc you are getting. Then post here the file "verbose_output.txt" in the installation directory for the Setup Utility.

Ingo wrote:
Feb 04, 2018 10:11 am
(i built this 2 buttons, Pot cable to my other bike and there it works well with the diods and resistors like you proposed) (V3,1b11)
Yep. The problem is that a while after b11, the regular diode design was revised to use Schottkys and a different resistor. This was a hard decision to make because of folks like you who had made an investment in custom builds. Anyhow, email Justin at Grin, and he will try to help you get this problem resolved. I've messaged him about your situation. One way to fix this is to run the switch wires out to the little PCB and then on to the connector. Just sleeve the PCB in-inline with the cable using some heatshrink. This isn't as elegant as a custom build with discrete parts inside the switch housing, but it's pretty quick as a repair and the bulge in the cable isn't too big. Or just use a whole new Grin DigiAux switch - at least temporarily...
no i dont disable the aux funktions... I thought if there is no power left from the pot, that's ok
no it´s not the brakes.. the gain parameter are at delaufts
now I can not even read out the setup.. so i can not give you the file

i will continue to try around

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 04, 2018 4:37 pm

Please turn off the Aux functions in Setup. We are doing this to get that limiting out of the picture. I don't care if the controls are hooked up - just that Setup tells the CA to ignore them.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 05, 2018 12:55 pm

here the file :
verbose_output.rar
(1.16 KiB) Downloaded 2 times
with SU version 1.31 i can read the CA out . with SU 1.54 i can read it out after i flash firmware once.
but no writing possible .

Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
very :evil: :evil:

with version b20 i have a throttle output like it has to be :)

Also, the "setup has changed" is gone so it stays at Km after reboot with aux cables connected

Otherwise, almost everything works with this version b20 except for the connection to the pc

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 05, 2018 12:59 pm

Ingo wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 12:55 pm
here the file : verbose_output.rar
Okay - Thanks!
We'll have a look at this.

BTW - what HW/SW platform are you on? (Windows, MAC, Linux?)(Win 10, etc...)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 05, 2018 1:09 pm

my normal PC is a Win7 but my laptop with which I try the CA to setup is an XP

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rowbiker » Feb 05, 2018 4:24 pm

I've had issues programming CAv3's using an older laptop running XP. My problems disappeared when I throttled back the baud rate over the USB/FTDI/Serial port comm layer. The "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't" sounds a lot like dropped packets on your communications port. IIRC, anything less than 115K baud seemed to work reliably, and since there is so little data involved, it hardly matters what speed you pick.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ingo » Feb 06, 2018 5:09 am

rowbiker wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 4:24 pm
I've had issues programming CAv3's using an older laptop running XP. My problems disappeared when I throttled back the baud rate over the USB/FTDI/Serial port comm layer. The "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't" sounds a lot like dropped packets on your communications port. IIRC, anything less than 115K baud seemed to work reliably, and since there is so little data involved, it hardly matters what speed you pick.
so what should i do to get the CA running with my laptop ?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jc.maquet » Feb 07, 2018 10:06 am

hello
sorry if these thing has been already talked, this thread is too long for me.
I just install the last 1.54 CA utility and last parameter CA3-1b21
I was looking to adjust the max regen current without success.
is there a trick somewhere ?

if not:
ask new feature:
max regen current (and max current) as parameter of battery setting

a battery pack have a max current and a max charging current. (C charge and C discharge)
it's may be a good idea to add these parameter in the battery setting.
this can allow a swap of different bat pack without overloaded the small one.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 07, 2018 10:50 am

jc.maquet wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 10:06 am
this thread is too long for me.
I just install the last 1.54 CA utility and last parameter CA3-1b21
I was looking to adjust...
Go to the Setup Utility menu bar and select "Help/Help" to get a description of the various settings.
jc.maquet wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 10:06 am
...last parameter CA3-1b21 I was looking to adjust
the max regen current without success.
is there a trick somewhere ?

if not:
ask new feature:
max regen current (and max current) as parameter of battery setting
There is presently no setting to limit regen current. The feature has been discussed and is on the list.

Presently, applying the brakes sends ThrO to EBk->BrakeOut voltage which you may adjust to an appropriate regen level. With throttle-controlled regen, opening the throttle causes ThrO to drop from EBk->BrakeOut to 0V as the throttle is opened while ebrakes are applied. The controller should interpret this voltage drop as a command to increase regen where 0V = max regen. In either case the regen current appears on the main screen as negative Amps.

As you can see, the CA3 regen control is handled entirely by manipulating the throttle voltage. If you are not using a controller with throttle-controlled regen (e.g. Grinfineon, Phaserunner, etc) then the CA cannot control regen and could not provide limiting. In cases where controller regen is activated directly by ebrake application, the CA is circumvented and unaware that regen is in play.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jc.maquet » Feb 07, 2018 2:43 pm

Hi teklektik, thanks for your time !
There is presently no setting to limit regen current.
that why I didn't find it !

do you agree it's a good idea to put in the battery setting ?

I use a phaserunner, so it is possible to adjust it in the controller setting, but this setting need to be adapted at each battery change.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Feb 07, 2018 3:19 pm

jc.maquet wrote:
Feb 07, 2018 2:43 pm
do you agree it's a good idea to put in the battery setting ?
There's an issue that most people don't understand when it comes to limiting the battery current during regen, and that is that for a given wheel speed there are TWO regen intensities that both have the same amps flowing into the battery. You can see this in the graphs of battery current vs PWM duty cycle that I originally posted in this thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 25#p119225
Here is an image of that graph that is not corrupted.
Image

If you ignore inductive effects, the battery current is a parabolic, and if you are on the left side of the parabolic minimum then the battery current decreases with increase regen, while on the right side of the parabola it increases with increasing regen. That has potential to then very much complicate the control loop, as the CA has no idea whether an increase to the regen command will raise or lower the battery amps that are flowing back into the pack. When you are travelling fast and doing regen, it's generally always on the right hand side, and the effect is as you would expect (less regen = less battery amps), but at lower speeds it's often operating on the other side, where reducing the regenerative current will actually increase the regen amps into the battery.

We could implement this under the assumption that most people are doing regen at high speeds, and just have a warning that low speed regen current limiting will not always behave as expected.
I use a phaserunner, so it is possible to adjust it in the controller setting, but this setting need to be adapted at each battery change.
Are you actually tripping the battery BMS circuits during regen or just concerned about the cells being able to handle things?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jc.maquet » Feb 07, 2018 4:54 pm

thanks for explanation, I will listen to your presentation

I have a modified "smartbms" from bmsbattery;
There are 2 separated connection for controller and charger, so no interruption of the regen current is possible but discharge can be interrupted just after
up to now I didn't have tripping the BMS. I just care about cell, current rate for charge is often C/3 but may be 1C is acceptable for short period

from a user or battery point of view, it is more logic to add a max current et max regen in CA battery setting.
but I didn't know there was an implementation issue for regen limiting

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by gronph » Feb 08, 2018 2:36 pm

Hello,

is EBrake automaticaly Regen or is there an EBrake Function without Regen so that no Power goes back to the Battery?

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Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rowbiker » Feb 08, 2018 9:52 pm

Ingo wrote:
Feb 06, 2018 5:09 am
rowbiker wrote:
Feb 05, 2018 4:24 pm
I've had issues programming CAv3's using an older laptop running XP. My problems disappeared when I throttled back the baud rate over the USB/FTDI/Serial port comm layer. The "sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't" sounds a lot like dropped packets on your communications port. IIRC, anything less than 115K baud seemed to work reliably, and since there is so little data involved, it hardly matters what speed you pick.
so what should i do to get the CA running with my laptop ?
Ingo -- it's been several years since I used the older laptop for CA programming, and I don't specifically remember where/how I changed the comm port parameters to make it work. You might have to contact Grin directly to find out what their recommendations are. I noticed that on the software for their new Phaserunner controllers there is now an option under the File menu to specifically 'slow down' the speed at which things happen on the comm link, which is also something I had to do.

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