Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Green Machine   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Apr 11 2012 11:18pm

Justin,

Is there a way that i could have a external analog dial to input the number of max amps i want going to the motor ....kind of a twist dial where i go from 0-10 in terms of amperage. This way i could really decide easily how intense i want my rc motor and controller to be as i am riding. I heard someone say in a conversation that this was a possible modification on the V2, but am unclear if its something that is really possible or how to do it.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 12 2012 12:58am

Green Machine wrote:Is there a way that i could have a external analog dial to input the number of max amps i want going to the motor ....kind of a twist dial where i go from 0-10 in terms of amperage.
Take a look at section 9.2 of the CA v2.23 Manual. You can do several nifty tricks with the feature described there and the specific example shown implements the exact functionality you want.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 12 2012 1:52am

shorza wrote:Not sure if it's possible, or even if it has already been done, but how hard would it be to have a 5 or 12 volt power outlet? Would be great for headlamps.
Doing this means adding an external heatsink, most likely, or having to ventilate the interior of the CA and making it unwaterproof. :( Also means adding complexity that isn't really needed, since it is just as easy to add an external DC-DC. Not only that, but since the power requirements for various lighting can be quite different, it would only work with some of them. For instance, it probably would not work with my 2.5A-6A car headlight. :lol: But if it's in there, people would kinda expect it to work with everything, because people do that a lot.

So, it's physically possible, but it would increase the size of the unit probably very significantly. As an example, the 12V 2A DC-DC I use on DayGlo Avenger, which is insufficient to run both the turn signals and the tail/headlight at the same time :roll: causing the whole lighting system to blink as the signals light up, is almost as big as the whole LS-CA. It is larger than the small-screen CA, and is not including the heatsink, which is itself larger than the whole LS-CA, and perhaps the DC-DC, too. That heatsink gets pretty hot, so a smaller one isn't all that practical, unless forced airflow can be used to help carry heat off.

Also, I know screen real estate is limited, but can there be a digital clock option? and maybe an option to choose what we would like on the home screen.
The catch there isn't so much screen real estate, as having to add an RTC chip to the system, with it's own battery, like the old "Dallas" chips common in PC's in the early 90s, and even before. Without that RTC chip and it's battery, the CA itself would have to remain powered on all the time, from your pack, in order to continue counting time. There are probably lower-power-modes it could run in, without powering the screen, but it would still take enough power that you would always have to keep the pack on the charger when not in use for long periods. And you could never disconnect pack power from the CA, even for charging. Either that, or reset the CA's clock every time you go to ride. ;)



Justin probably has other answers to these questions...but I've thought of having those things in there, too, and those are gotcha's against them. :(

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Apr 12 2012 2:26am

Great response Amberwolf, thank for clearing up my questions.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 12 2012 3:35am

rolf_w wrote:http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 45#p564339: New Swiss ordinance - what we need now are smarter controllers, CA or Speedict etc. which allow to programm such limits and change them on the fly!
r
With regard to this and a 'Street/ Trail' mode
I would like to add further to that.

I would like to "see" these options, invisible to the casual or even inquisitive visitor...someone like a State Vehicle inscpector'
We all know how bloody minded some of these people can be and I would not put it past them to pull a bike that seems to be going too fast, to then find out more about it..search the internet, come up with Justins page and the CA manual

I would really like to see this as an 'undocumented' secret feature.
Something along the lines of
Push and hold the both front panel buttons simulatneously for 4 seconds to switch to road legal mode. another 4 second push to go to wide open mode.
I would like to see no reference to it in the setup screens..the only way to adjust ethese settings being via opening up and doing it via a software/firmware interface on the PC..Or get it factory changed from Justin when buying if you wnated anything different to the standard road legal setting in your country.

A simple descrete 4 second push of both buttons, instantly limits speed, current, and kW to a road legal setting.

OK maybe I am being a little paranoid over this..undocumented..not in the setup screens etc etc..but I'd rather not have something in the menu that some nosey pen pusher starts asking questions about..or ' what does that button do....
Last edited by NeilP on Nov 26 2012 4:05pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 12 2012 4:03am

Well, the way I see it we already have that option when programming the controller (assuming you have a programmable controller). That means you can show that the CA is unlimited, but the controller + motor REALLY can not go faster than 30km/h or have more power than 250W continuously, because you programmed it that way in the controller by limiting speed and battery current. Here is where a longer block time could help you.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 12 2012 6:10am

hjns wrote:Well, the way I see it we already have that option when programming the controller (assuming you have a programmable controller). That means you can show that the CA is unlimited, but the controller + motor REALLY can not go faster than 30km/h or have more power than 250W continuously, because you programmed it that way in the controller by limiting speed and battery current. Here is where a longer block time could help you.

No, you miss my point completely. There is no way with the current setup that you can change from unlimited to limited, on the road, in the middle of a road/vehicle/inspector /police check in seconds without the use of an external visible switch of some sort that they are likely to find if they search and suspect something.

I want a way, that if stopped, you can quickly toggle to a road legal speed mode without the use of an external switch that any eagle eyed police officer or vehicle inspector can see and say "What does this do"


hjns wrote:That means you can show that the CA is unlimited, but the controller + motor REALLY can not go faster than 30km/h or have more power than 250W continuously, because you programmed it that way in the controller by limiting speed and battery current. Here is where a longer block time could help you.
That is one thing I would not want to do, show the controller as being unlimited and limit the motor via the controller. I want precisely the reverse.
Leave the controller programming totally unlimited, and have a quick and hidden way, no switches, to limit the speed and power when stopped
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 12 2012 9:33am

NeilP wrote:I would like to "see" these options, invisible to the casuakl or even inquisitive visitor...someone like a State Vehickl inscpector'
We all know how bloody minded some of these people can be and I would not put it past them to pull a bike that seems to be going too fast, tghen find out more about it..search the internet, come up with Justins page and the CA manual

I would really like to see this as an 'undocumented' secret feature.
Something along the lines of
Push and hold the both front panel buttons simulatneously for 4 seconds to switch to road legal mode. another 4 second push to go to wide open mode.
I would like to see no reference to it in the setup screens..the only way to adjust ethese settings being via opening up and doing it via a software/firmware interface on the PC..Or get it factory changed from Justin when buyig if you wnated anything different to the standard road leggal setting in your country.

A simple descrete 4 second push of both buttons, instantly limits speed, current, and kW to a road legal setting.

OK maybe I am being a little paranoid over this..undocumented..not in the setup screens etc etc..but I'd rather not ahve something in the menu that some nosey pen pusher starts asking questions about..or ' what does that button do....
This was requested a few posts back:
teklektik wrote:Okay, one last 'would be nice'....

It might be nice to have two configurable Power Limit (Max Watts) settings: Street and Trail and a option to determine which mode is in effect when powered ON: Street/Trail/Last. Holding down both CA buttons at once for few seconds (a la Setup/Reset) would toggle the mode and briefly display "Street" or "Trail" before resuming the previous display mode. The current Power Limit numerical setting would be viewable outside of Setup as one of the normal top level summary screens without any specific reference to Street or Trail mode.

Any similarity of this feature to the Boss Button of the early days of video games is purely coincidental. :mrgreen:
Here you have the mode switching feature you described plus an ability to make the unit come up in Street mode. Simply turning the unit OFF then back ON and causes it to revert to legal Street mode. For non-road applications it can be configured to come up in Trail mode, and for those without legal issues in their state because of the build, it can be set to come up the way it was Last time, to avoid unneeded button pushing.

Since the actual Street or Trail limit is clearly visible in the normal top level summary screens as 'Power Limit = XYZZY" without reference to Street or Trail (suggesting there is an alternative setting) the observer has a clear statement of power capacity without a lot of mystery or ambiguity. Limiting the controller or displaying in Amps, etc does not get to the simple statement of Watts (hp).

The difficulty with a factory limit is that in the US, Power Limits are bound by Federal Law for sale of the bike for Consumer Safety (not our concern) but 50 different State laws for registration and moving violations (our concern) - and of course, there are lots of other international restrictions as well. Additionally, laws change and the whole business is a burden and a place that I doubt Justin wishes to go. Although various sleazy schemes could be devised to allow these values to be set 'secretly' by users, once the cat is out of the bag (like Googling/reading this forum), a couple of button pushes and the alternate setting pops up - making it difficult to set does nothing if the mode can be displayed/changed easily when you know the 'secret handshake'.

I think we need a feature that is useful in its own right to make riding the bike easier, something that might also be legally defensible as making the vehicle in compliance with the Law, and which will for the time being rely on ignorance to make the alternate setting invisible. At such time as such the feature falls into Law Enforcement general knowledge, the matter changes to demonstrating that the mode the bike was in at the time of an offense was in fact illegal. In the States, this is getting pretty far out there for a traffic stop. In any case there will always be intrinsic value to two settings for users who are not scofflaws.

What we don't want is to have Law Enforcement general knowledge ever perceive the device as specifically designed to evade the Law. Not too many decades ago, radar detectors were confiscated in my State. At the very least, you can be sure that even today, having a detector on the dash when stopped puts the trooper in a certain unpleasant mind-set before you roll down the window. Let's leave Justin to making these wonderful gadgets and stay away from involving him in clear legal subterfuge that cannot be of business value.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rolf_w » Apr 12 2012 2:29pm

the new Swiss ordinance for electric 2-wheelers will simplify the present chaos substantially as there will be only 3 classes: the e-bicycle, the e-moped and the e-motorcycle
  • the e-bicycles (Leicht-Motorfahrräder) are equal to bicycles (above 14 licence M, no licence above 16) with max. 0.5kW, with max. 20km/h (motor only mode) and max. 25km/h (motor assisted mode); helmet recommended
  • the e-mopeds (Übrige "Motorfahrräder") are equal to mopeds (above 14 licence M) with max. 1kW, with max. 30km/h (motor only mode) and max. 45km/h (motor assisted mode); helmet mandatory
This means both e-bicycles and e-mopeds can be driven without pedaling up to the lower speed limit and with pedaling (pedelec) to the upper limit. Beyond the upper speed limit it's muscles only :x . The new regulation is also a first step in the direction of what we call the 'chamaeleon', a 2-wheeler which can change class, as it is allowed to use the e-moped as an e-bicycle in bicycle-only areas provided it is (temporarily) 'trimmed' to the e-bicycle limits. We'd wish that this concept will be extendended to the e-motorcycles too!

The e-motorcycles are equal to motorcycles and are allowed to be in the motor only mode beyond 45km/h. The exact operation mode for motorcycles is defined by the age and license of the driver:
above 16:
CH (=Swiss) <4kW ; EU <11kW & < 80km/h (EU after 2013: <11kW & 0.1kW/kg = licence A1)
above 18:
CH <25kW & 0.16kW/kg EU same (EU after 2013: <35kW & 0.2kW/kg = licence A2)
above 20:
no restrictions, if 2 years accident-free with A2
above 25:
no restrictions = licence A

it's interesting to see that power limits remain but all speed limits will be dropped, instead the power density (kW/kg) is introduced for motorcycles. The logic is clear: the speed limits are dictated by the lane and not by the vehicle, the possible acceleration is dictated by the maturity and skills of the driver (age and licence). In the long run the max. power limit might be dropped too as it makes not much sense together with a power density limit: e.g. if you have A1 and want to maximise power i.e. 11kW your vehicle has to weigh 110kg - a no go for ultra light 2-wheelers.

Assuming chamaeleons will be allowed my e-bike would require quite sophisticated programming possibilities to be kept legal.
Last edited by rolf_w on Apr 12 2012 2:59pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 12 2012 2:37pm

Yes, I saw it in today's New Zuricher Zeitung. It will be a nice challenge to keep up appearances of my bike limited to 1kW 45km/h..... :mrgreen:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 12 2012 5:27pm

amberwolf wrote: Justin probably has other answers to these questions...but I've thought of having those things in there, too, and those are gotcha's against them. :(
Hey Amberwolf, thanks, you basically nailed it!

I totally understand the need and desire both for a real time clock and more auxilliary power port options (like a 5V USB output so that you can keep cell phones, GPS etc. charged up). However, as implied from the challenges that Amberwolf mentioned both these things would require a redesign from the ground up, which takes a lot of time. They can't really be added or evolved into the existing CA implementation, and hence aren't things that you'll see any time soon. -Justin
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 12 2012 5:38pm

teklektik wrote: Already requested - CA V3 Street/Trail mode. Set Street mode for 'legal', Trail mode for 'WooHoo!'.
On a similar note, now that there is a state of charge meter, it will complicate things for people who have several different battery packs that they use on the same ebike with the same CA. So just like several "mode" presets would be good, so too would several battery presets.

The best way I can think to pull this off would be something like this:
1) Hold the left button while tapping the right button to toggle through the different power presets (like street, road, what have you)
2) Hold the right button while tapping the left button to toggle through different battery presets (so cell count, chemistry, Ah, Tot Cycles etc. would all be linked to particular batteries)

Other option would be to go into the setup menu etc., but as NeilP was suggesting it is good to be able to do this via a button shortcut of sorts, and I think that the above implementation would do the job without confusing the existing button functionality.

It will require a fair bit of reworking the firmware and eeprom memory space to pull this off, but I should be able to do it within the next month I think.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ypedal » Apr 12 2012 5:49pm

how cool would bluetooth enabled be !!.. program from your smart phone !
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_Almost_ ready to ship, and bootloader info

Post by justin_le » Apr 12 2012 6:16pm

So guys, the V3 beta CA's were all completed and tested yesterday, here is Michael (MrVass) doing a final connectivity test on all the input/output lines:
Michael Assembly.jpg
Michael Assembly.jpg (89.64 KiB) Viewed 4300 times
The hangup now is that even after a few near all-nighters there are a few new things I was adding to the firmware which are still in a half finished state of implementation, so shipping will be delayed until tomorrow.

That said, I'm expecting that most people will be updating the firmware on a pretty regular basis as the code evolves. To do that, there is a zip file you can download here with the bootloader flash tool.
www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain/CA3_Flash_Tool.zip

Just uncompress it in any folder and launch "FirmwareUpdateUtility.exe" From there, you select the appropriate COM port and plug in the communications cable to the CA and hit "detect device"
Detecting Device.jpg
Detecting Device.jpg (36.99 KiB) Viewed 4300 times
Then power on the CA, and it should show a message like this:
Device Detected.jpg
Device Detected.jpg (44.72 KiB) Viewed 4300 times
You then load the new firmware file and hit the "Flash Device" button, there will be a bunch of stuff in the 'message/outout' window and should terminate with Flash Success!

For those who included the USB cable with the CA3 order, it will be plug and play. If you didn't, then you'll need to hook up a COM->TTL or USB->TTL converter to match with TRS connector on the CA, with the CA's RX on the top, and the TX on the ring:
TRS Details.jpg
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Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 12 2012 6:17pm

justin_le wrote:
teklektik wrote: Already requested - CA V3 Street/Trail mode. Set Street mode for 'legal', Trail mode for 'WooHoo!'.
So just like several "mode" presets would be good, so too would several battery presets. ...
It will require a fair bit of reworking the firmware and eeprom memory space to pull this off, but I should be able to do it within the next month I think.
Wow - now that was unexpected - I was thinking more like v3.1! This is too cool. 8) 8) 8) 8)
Need I say it? Thanks yet again!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by johnrobholmes » Apr 13 2012 9:18am

Great explanation of the firmware upgrading, thanks! Even a communications dummy like me can figure that out.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 13 2012 4:09pm

"Give 'em an inch and..."

Justin -
Recently there were a couple of threads that discussed related issues:
  1. A case of lending a bike where the bike was too much for the rider and led to a spill, and
  2. A situation of building up a powered trike for an 11 year old girl with some coordination issues.
In both these cases, it would be desirable to limit the speed/power in a fashion that would be impossible to alter by the rider. So, once again we come to Justin with a feature request (albeit much lower on the 'would-be-nice' scale).

In addition to the Street and Trail modes, add a Valet or Secure mode that once entered, requires a password to enter Setup or change mode. (Emphasize: password only comes into effect if Valet mode is set :wink:). Using the standard CA rolling digit selector, a 4-6 digit number could be set in Setup as a password, much like a home security system. Entering this to get into Setup or to allow escape from Valet mode would be a bit of a PITA, but that's sort of the idea. If the password was set to 999999, then the security feature would be disabled, no password prompt would appear, and Valet mode would operate as do Street and Trail modes. A forgotten password would need to be addressed with a reflash.

This would address both situations above and other similar cases where the operator may have a little too much 'WooHoo!' and cleverness for his own good.
Last edited by teklektik on Apr 13 2012 4:28pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by oatnet » Apr 13 2012 4:16pm

teklektik wrote:
justin_le wrote:
teklektik wrote: Already requested - CA V3 Street/Trail mode. Set Street mode for 'legal', Trail mode for 'WooHoo!'.
So just like several "mode" presets would be good, so too would several battery presets. ...
It will require a fair bit of reworking the firmware and eeprom memory space to pull this off, but I should be able to do it within the next month I think.
Wow - now that was unexpected - I was thinking more like v3.1! This is too cool. 8) 8) 8) 8)
Need I say it? Thanks yet again!
+1, This is wonderful, thanks! I have been dreaming of having a selectable street/offroad presets for years, I had considered defeating CA control with a switch on the brake line, but that meant programming the CA for a restrictive street mode, and not using control features the rest of the time.

Having several presets is a game changer. If there were four presets, mine would be: "Noob", "Street", "Offroad", and "Pucker"
:lol:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 13 2012 5:43pm

johnrobholmes wrote:Great explanation of the firmware upgrading, thanks! Even a communications dummy like me can figure that out.
Really? I still thought it is somewhat cumbersome, so after I posted that we did a last minute change to the bootloader timeouts such that the flashing program can have time to poll the various available com ports and auto-detect the one to which a CA is connected. We'll also plan to have the most recent firmware directly linked in the flashing utility. So the dream explanation for upgrading firmware would be as follows:

1) Double-Click Flash Updater Program
2) Plug in CA to computer
3) Hit "Update Firmware" button!

By the time it's out of beta phase hopefully we can have it implemented like that, but for now all the beta users are going to have to struggle with a few extra clicks and selecting the right COM port ;-)

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by johnrobholmes » Apr 13 2012 6:23pm

Sure it may be a bit cumbersome, but having a bootloader program written is a huge step! I'm sure you will end up with a header or plug that is standard for firmware upgrades in the future too. In a matter of time you may even have parameters adjustable in the firmware upgrading program! I'm certainly glad to have you around to learn from.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Trackman417 » Apr 13 2012 8:39pm

I just cant help but smile on how HUGE of a leap you are making, with the CA, Justin!!!!!! :D
All of this is just too much! If I didn't buy my bike kit from you two months ago I would have waited for the V3 CA. But thats how the cookie crumbles I guess. ahah I knew I should've waited! Ah well.
Is there going to be a LMH switch for the new CA now? That would be pretty cool! If so could it be integrated with the same switch that crystalyte uses for their controllers?
Once again
Thanks Justin! :D
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Sacman   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Sacman » Apr 13 2012 11:57pm

Trackman417 wrote: Is there going to be a LMH switch for the new CA now? That would be pretty cool! If so could it be integrated with the same switch that crystalyte uses for their controllers?
Since you're thinking along those lines you might as well include a throttle latching Cruise Control feature that sets a constant speed and/or releases it ... using an external momentary switch (like the regen button on some twist throttles).

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Hyena » Apr 14 2012 6:48am

I've only just caught up on this thead, AWESOME work Justin. So many cool and much needed features. Along with everything else I'm especially pleased to see both the temp control and multiple power modes, they're 2 things I've spent time toying to get a cheap, neat and easy solution and having it all tied into the CA is ideal. I guess it's more the hot rodders that will be concerned with the temperature limiting but it'd be nice if the motor manufacturers started including thermistors. For the 20c extra it'd cost it'd be nice to have it there even if not used by the majority of people.
NeilP wrote:I would really like to see this as an 'undocumented' secret feature.
Something along the lines of
Push and hold the both front panel buttons simulatneously for 4 seconds to switch to road legal mode. another 4 second push to go to wide open mode.
I would like to see no reference to it in the setup screens..
While you're at it, I want a cheat mode that unlocks unlimited amp hours :P
Oh, and "no clipping" mode for when riding in traffic :lol:
NeilP wrote:I want a way, that if stopped, you can quickly toggle to a road legal speed mode without the use of an external switch that any eagle eyed police officer or vehicle inspector can see and say "What does this do"
We've discussed this many times before and there's several options, my favourite was a reed switch in the grip that was only activated by the rider wearing a secret magnetic 'decoder ring' :lol:
It sounds like Justin is all over it though
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by NeilP » Apr 14 2012 7:12am

Hyena wrote:
NeilP wrote:I want a way, that if stopped, you can quickly toggle to a road legal speed mode without the use of an external switch that any eagle eyed police officer or vehicle inspector can see and say "What does this do"
We've discussed this many times before and there's several options, my favourite was a reed switch in the grip that was only activated by the rider wearing a secret magnetic 'decoder ring' :lol:
I already do this, reed switch, and magnet on frame. but magnet is likely to get lost, fall off..it has happened, and then you are left to riding home at 15 mph. Plus if an inspection department wanted to get serious and open up the side panel on my bike and look they are likely to see the reed switch etc. Would just be easier done from the CA
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 14 2012 8:12am

Trackman417 wrote:Is there going to be a LMH switch for the new CA now? If so could it be integrated with the same switch that crystalyte uses for their controllers?
This is a feature currently available by tinkering together a few resistors. As mentioned in an earlier post, section 9.2 of the CA v2.23 Manual explains a feature allowing external control of current limiting. You can rig the Xlyte LMH switch to limit with percentages of the Max Amps configuration (e.g. 33% 66% 100%). In this simple version the throttle range will not be expanded to fill the full range of throttle movement, but WOT will give you no more than the LMH setting exactly as if you had adjusted Max Amps. If this will do what you need, I can post details (just trying not to wander OT unless there is interest :wink: ).
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