Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 21 2013 11:09pm

ColinB wrote:...the auto cruise still does not work. It will catch, but comes out of cruise mode after 3-4 seconds. Any suggestions on where to look?
Please see 'Verify Throttle Adjustments' in section 3.7 of the Guide.
ColinB wrote:I'm using the throttle in the Power mode (so throttle is percentage of max power.) I've been tuning it with the gain settings, but can't get it perfectly smooth. How smooth should I expect it to get? It is roughest when the motor isn't having to work hard to maintain speed, say at half throttle on level ground. (Not super rough, but can still hear and feel it pulsing.) Adding throttle to accelerate is smooth.
Some 'hunting' at certain speed is not unusual, but in my experience it generally occurs under a light load (e.g. climbing a small incline) under partial throttle but this is very dependent on the controller/motor and vehicle weight. It's a little odd that you are noticing so much - particularly on the flat. Are there other limit flags in play besides 'W'? Have you tried increasing the both up and down ramping a bit?

Also - if your controller has a built-in throttle delay then the CA throttle corrections will be delayed and roughness will result as the CA continually overshoots because its actions appear to have no immediate effect and it adjusts still further to urge the controller on. What motor/controller do you have?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ColinB » Oct 24 2013 10:10pm

Edit: Ok, I see others have had a similar problem. Any resolution? Obvious my searching skills are lacking!

Hi guys, new problem. Itermitantly the throttle does not respond. After checking out and re-doing the phase wires and hall sensor wires, I checked the output voltage. Even if I was at full throttle, it would go to just 1.1 volts, and very very slowly climb. Backing off throttle and trying again wouldn't help. Turning the system off and on again would help. Sometimes.

I tried it with the throttle in pass-through and power modes. Same thing. The throttle output settings seem ok (at least they are the same as before the upgrade.) So I'm going to re-load the previous version and see what happens. I'll call ebikes.ca tomorrow too to see if they have any advice.

Hope this helps someone out.

Colin

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Architectonic » Oct 25 2013 4:11am

I still have a few significant issues with prelim 6.

Firstly, the speedometer spike issue: speed reports fine, but top speed spikes to 200-600 km/h - I have disc brakes, this might have something to do with it.

The second is the switching issue, it doesn't switch on first time, I'm not sure if it doesn't like my switch or what, but sometimes I have to switch the controller on/off 5 times before the CA displays correctly (the backlight turns on, but nothing else).

I would like a fix to these issues at some point!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by waynebergman » Oct 25 2013 9:18am

I cant find in the users manual "phase current setting". Is this setting being controlled by something that is reffered to by a different name for version 3 CA settings?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ColinB » Oct 25 2013 10:43am

waynebergman wrote:I cant find in the users manual "phase current setting". Is this setting being controlled by something that is reffered to by a different name for version 3 CA settings?
Not sure what you are asking. What is phase current setting?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ykick » Oct 25 2013 11:05am

ColinB wrote:
waynebergman wrote:I cant find in the users manual "phase current setting". Is this setting being controlled by something that is reffered to by a different name for version 3 CA settings?
Not sure what you are asking. What is phase current setting?
Phase current setting is for controller programming - I don't think it has much to do with CA of any version.

I've recently started using CAV3 and it's quite the cool device. Still experimenting with throttle setups but so far I enjoy the presets for different levels of operation.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 25 2013 11:27am

Architectonic wrote:I still have a few significant issues with prelim 6.
Firstly, the speedometer spike issue: speed reports fine, but top speed spikes to 200-600 km/h.
This is contact bounce in the wheel pickup. Try moving the magnet in closer. If the problem persists, contact Grin Tech about a replacement.
Architectonic wrote:The second is the switching issue, it doesn't switch on first time, I'm not sure if it doesn't like my switch or what, but sometimes I have to switch the controller on/off 5 times before the CA displays correctly (the backlight turns on, but nothing else).
This is a known and long-standing issue. It has not been possible for Justin to reproduce this - stay tuned!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 25 2013 11:39am

Ykick wrote:
waynebergman wrote:I cant find in the users manual "phase current setting". Is this setting being controlled by something that is reffered to by a different name for version 3 CA settings?
Phase current setting is for controller programming - I don't think it has much to do with CA of any version.
Spot on. All CA versions operate by monitoring the 'rated current' (controller power) and manipulating the controller throttle input - 'phase current' is not in the CA vocabulary.

As far as max limits are concerned, the CA 'Max Current' setting is generally viewed in light of the controller 'rated current' parameter not 'phase current'. See your controller programming application to set the max phase current limit in the controller.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by bee » Oct 29 2013 7:28pm

I am having a problem where the motors speed is limited when I plug the CA in. I am trying to use the CA to monitor watts/temperature and have the throttle plugged into the controller. Which throttle settings do I want so that the CA doesn't affect the throttle? When I set it to Pass-Thru or Off (0V) the throttle is limited, if I set it to Off (WOT) then the motor immediately loads up full speed with no limiting and no throttle applied.

I am using an 18FET lyen controller, previously I was using a 12FET lyen controller and had the CA set to Off (WOT) mode which did not limit the throttle but also did not cause it the motor load up immediately (without applying any throttle).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 29 2013 8:57pm

bee wrote:I am trying to use the CA to monitor watts/temperature and have the throttle plugged into the controller. Which throttle settings do I want so that the CA doesn't affect the throttle? When I set it to Pass-Thru or Off (0V) the throttle is limited, if I set it to Off (WOT) then the motor immediately loads up full speed with no limiting and no throttle applied.

I am using an 18FET lyen controller, previously I was using a 12FET lyen controller and had the CA set to Off (WOT) mode which did not limit the throttle but also did not cause it the motor load up immediately (without applying any throttle).
I believe you have fallen victim to the updated 'large screen' controller spec - I'm pretty sure you have a relatively new 18FET unit (large screen compatible) while your 12 FET (V2 compatible) is somewhat older. The difficulty is that the new controller does not have the internal diode in series with the throttle signal as required for legacy V2 operation.

To fix this you have two choices:
  1. Plug the throttle into the V3. This is by far the best solution - you are losing features by running in V2 mode.
    Use the throttle setup described in the Guide.
  2. Change the CA-DP connector throttle connection to the V3 PCB. Just move the green wire from the ThO to the Thd pad - this will add in the diode that is missing in the controller.
    Use the 'Off(WOT)' setting as you did with the 12 FET controller to operate in legacy V2 'limiting mode'.
    CaDpConn+Pcb_NewCtrlr.png
    Relocate Green Throttle wire to put diode in series with ThrOut signal (V2 compatibility mode)
    CaDpConn+Pcb_NewCtrlr.png (29.74 KiB) Viewed 3623 times
Sorry this situation isn't (yet) covered in the Guide - too many interesting and exciting other things going on this summer/fall :D
Hope this gets you squared away...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 30 2013 9:38pm

'Large Screen Compatible' Controllers

EDIT - This material has been moved to a downloadable Errata PDF located here.
Last edited by teklektik on Nov 10 2013 6:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ColinB » Nov 01 2013 5:02pm

Hi guys, I have a possible solution for those whose throttle does not respond right away after powering on the system. You can go full throttle, and the throttle out reading will ever so slowly creep up, eventually getting to a point where it will respond normally.

For me, this happened because I followed section 5.2 of the Unofficial User Guide, and set the "Int S Gain = 1. The instructions say it is to disable the speed control logic if it isn't needed. But I suspect what it does is dampen the throttle so much it takes minutes to respond. Setting "Int S Gain = 100" fixed it immediately. Thanks to the nice guys at ebikes.ca who helped me troubleshoot my settings.

Hope this helps someone else too.

Colin

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Nov 01 2013 7:19pm

ColinB wrote:Hi guys, I have a possible solution for those whose throttle does not respond right away after powering on the system. You can go full throttle, and the throttle out reading will ever so slowly creep up, eventually getting to a point where it will respond normally.

For me, this happened because I followed section 5.2 of the Unofficial User Guide, and set the "Int S Gain = 1. The instructions say it is to disable the speed control logic if it isn't needed. But I suspect what it does is dampen the throttle so much it takes minutes to respond. Setting "Int S Gain = 100" fixed it immediately. Thanks to the nice guys at ebikes.ca who helped me troubleshoot my settings.
Thanks for the post! This fix was reported in a post on the previous page - but there so many pages...

One of the needed Guide updates... (working on it!) :D

As always - many thanks to all who post with issues/resolutions - all this stuff finds its way into the Guide to assist others...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scott » Nov 02 2013 9:49pm

ColinB wrote: Setting "Int S Gain = 100" fixed it immediately.
I have this same problem, but setting Int S Gain to 100 or 999 made no difference. The throttle out reading still increased about once per second. Since I am not running my throttle through the CA I set my throttle min to 3.00 and then that fixed the problem (that made it start at 3.00 then slowly increase to 3.8). Although this work around would be bad to use if someone were to running their throttle through the CA I think.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Nov 03 2013 11:45am

Scott wrote:
ColinB wrote: Setting "Int S Gain = 100" fixed it immediately.
I have this same problem, but setting Int S Gain to 100 or 999 made no difference. The throttle out reading still increased about once per second. Since I am not running my throttle through the CA I set my throttle min to 3.00 and then that fixed the problem (that made it start at 3.00 then slowly increase to 3.8). Although this work around would be bad to use if someone were to running their throttle through the CA I think.
I'm guessing that "I set my throttle min to 3.00" refers to ThrO->MinOut and that you set it to the same value as ThrO->MaxOut. This deactivates V2 legacy mode so the CA is in monitor-only mode and cannot affect (limit) controller operation - kind of an expensive Watt meter... :)

I cannot duplicate this issue except by setting ThrO->UpRate to a very low value. Perhaps you can assist in understanding the rest of the setup:
  1. What firmware rev are you running?
  2. Is ThrI->CntrlMode set to OFF(WOT)?
  3. What is ThrO->UpRate?
  4. What is ThrI_>MinInput?
  5. Are you using AuxPot or have you enabled any other advanced features?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scott » Nov 03 2013 10:02pm

teklektik wrote:
  1. What firmware rev are you running?
  2. Is ThrI->CntrlMode set to OFF(WOT)?
  3. What is ThrO->UpRate?
  4. What is ThrI_>MinInput?
  5. Are you using AuxPot or have you enabled any other advanced features?
I do still plan on still using the CA like the V2 to limit amps and stuff at lvc. If some one were to use the CA as a watt meter. calling it a Watt meter would be an understatement. :lol:

1. What firmware rev are you running: 6. I did not realize I needed to buy a programming cable when i bought my CAv3 so I will need to order one at some point.

2. Is ThrI->CntrlMode set to OFF(WOT): Yes it is set to OFF(WOT)
3. ThrO->UpRate: 3.00
4. What is ThrI_>MinInput: .80 volts
5. I am using a temp sensor and I tried disabling this feature but it did not change my problem.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Nov 04 2013 4:18pm

Scott wrote:I do still plan on still using the CA like the V2 to limit amps and stuff at lvc.
Hey Scott - I have reproduced your setup including the temp sensor (shouldn't and doesn't matter) and cannot reproduce the issue. Clearly getting ThrO->MinOutput back to a reasonable value is necessary to complete your plans.

If you want to post a more complete setup parameter suite, I can have another go at it. Either fill in the XLS file in the Setup Parameter download bundle and post it, or just type up the settings in a post. With no clue as to what's up, this would need ThrotIn, ThrotOut, SpeedLims, and PowerLims assuming that PAS, TRQ, and AUX are disabled - everything would be better, but perhaps a bit of a drudge...

Anyhow, your call if you wish to pursue by this means - no rush, anytime is okay :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ykick » Nov 06 2013 10:52am

When CAV3 is controlling throttle signal is there any setting(s) to reduce a slight but noticeable delay when letting off throttle input?

It's nothing horrible but kinda unsettling when I let off throttle and controller acts like it hangs or even goes WOT for a fraction of a second. Can't remember if it did this in pass-through but it's certainly noticeable in current/speed throttle mode?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Nov 06 2013 12:28pm

Ykick wrote:When CAV3 is controlling throttle signal is there any setting(s) to reduce a slight but noticeable delay when letting off throttle input?
There are two things you can try:
  • You can set ThrO->DownRate to 99 V/s so that there is no delay at all in the downward direction. This may help a bit.
  • You can try raising the appropriate PLim->AGain or PLim->WGain for Current or Power Throttle respectively to speed up the response a bit but things make get a little twitchy or begin 'hunting' if you go too high.

    This part of the issue is related to the CA PID controller logic that responds according to the AGain/WGain settings which are really coefficients for Integral or 'error' terms that determine correction based on recent past performance. This means that there must always be some small intrinsic delay because the correction is driven by the past not the present error. Higher gain settings make the PID controller more responsive (the integral error builds faster) but can lead to overshoot.
Also - remember that screen display values do not change immediately. With the exception of the IN/OUT voltages on the Diagnostic screen, displayed values are averaged over time and updated periodically as determined by Pref->Averaging. Readjusting this value or watching the IN/OUT display can help give you a more accurate feel for what the CA is really doing - although in the end it's the good old buttometer that really counts... :D

Anyhow - no big surprise - it's necessary to make some tradeoffs to get a balance of features/performance that's acceptable. Unfortunately, this means that if you want the improved throttle linearity and controllability of Current/Power throttle then you may have to forfeit some of the immediacy of direct throttle control provided by PassThru mode - at least for the present beta firmware...
Last edited by teklektik on Nov 07 2013 2:39pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ykick   100 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ykick » Nov 06 2013 12:58pm

Awesome explanation, kind sir! Will give those areas closer scrutiny and attempt to apply better understanding.

I don't feel as if it's much trade-off - mainly curious about throttle setups which have been discussed in depth. Sometimes hearing it in different terms helps flush out a more logical approach.

Thanks!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillyterrain » Nov 10 2013 12:28am

Is there a way to reset the Wh/mile statistic other than flashing a new firmware onto the CA V3? I want to measure a different bike / battery combo and not lose all my settings (& find a windows computer to do the flashing..)

Thanks !!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Architectonic » Nov 10 2013 8:59am

teklektik wrote: This is contact bounce in the wheel pickup. Try moving the magnet in closer. If the problem persists, contact Grin Tech about a replacement.
The pickup was perpendicular to the 203mm rotor, so I moved it up a little bit (on the other side of the spoke cross) and used rubber mounting. It has helped a lot, but spiked on 1/5 of my last rides (as opposed to every ride). I guess I will have to mess around with trying different rubber bits...

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Nov 10 2013 10:02am

hillyterrain wrote:Is there a way to reset the Wh/mile statistic other than flashing a new firmware onto the CA V3?
  • Wh/mi and all other trip average and maximum (peak) statistics are reset by doing a 'Trip Reset' (press-hold the right console button).
  • To reset only the peak trip statistics leaving the average stats unchanged, navigate to the 'Trip Regen Stats' screen and perform the right button press-hold on that screen.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Nov 10 2013 6:57pm

A downloadable Errata PDF for the Unofficial User Guide v3.0p6-a is available here.

This contains material previously presented in posts:
  • new material covering 'Large Screen Compatible' CA-DP interface modifications,
  • new material covering the 'Peak Statistics Reset' feature, and
  • correction of the IntSGain setting for disabling Speed Limiting (section 5.2).
This is an interim measure until a single updated Guide document is prepared.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillyterrain » Nov 10 2013 8:54pm

Thank you!

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