Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Hyena   100 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Hyena » Apr 23 2012 5:29am

justin_le wrote:I'm of the general opinion that it's best to show only stats that are clearly known, and leave the riders in charge of proceeding based on that info and all the other environmental stuff which a rider (and not the CA) is aware of. Is it just me coming from a bit of a tech/lab background or does that make sense? -Justin
Yeah I guess. I suppose it's something you quickly get the hang of but I've had a few noobs say to me "man, I was out having a blast then suddenly ran out of battery and had to pedal the rest of the way to work/home" (oh, the horror! :lol:)
I guess once that happens a few times they learn to keep an eye on the ah!
justin_le wrote: If you engage the ebrake levers by shorting the Bk pad to ground, then the throttle slider is replaced with an animated brake handle ...This is done so that in principle you could use the throttle signal going to 0V in order to activate a regen input on the controller with just a simple comparator circuit, and eliminate the need for a separate wire going to the controller for that
Cool, but shorting bk to ground automatically cuts out the throttle and activates regen (if enabled) anyway - atleast on my controllers it does. Or are you referring to a bk pad on the CA itself ?
Next up, an ebikes.ca throttle with only a 6" long cable on it that plugs straight into the side of the CA :)
justin_le wrote: the way you described setting it up is exactly as I was envisioning.
Excellent! :D
Now it'd really make my day if you could program the over temp alert caused the whole screen to flash
"WARNING: Danger to manifold" :lol:

On a serious note, if you're going to have temperature rotating with 3 other parameters having it just flash might not be sufficient if it only displays temp for 2 seconds anyway. Maybe that parameter could stay on and flash if it's causing the CA to cut power. Though I guess if you're really worried about temperature (primarily in hod rodding applications I assume) you'd set up one of the above mentioned custom screens to keep an eye on it, and you'd notice power ramping down before it cut right out.
Or if that parameter isn't on the current screen, maybe you could have a flashing exclamation mark icon or something (like the brake lever display) that instantly tells you the CA has has cut your power rather than a BMS, wiring or hardware fault.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by AussieJester » Apr 23 2012 6:15am

justin_le wrote: the way you described setting it up is exactly as I was envisioning.
highside hyena wrote:Excellent! :D
Now it'd really make my day if you could program the over temp alert caused the whole screen to flash
"WARNING: Danger to manifold" :lol:


Well...at the very least..."WARNING: Frocked motor imminent"

:-P

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Apr 23 2012 7:52am

I am unfamiliar with thermistors.
10k NTC thermistors on Ebay vary in size and price. Can you recommend one?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lostrack » Apr 23 2012 9:31am

Here's the throttle map idea.

More than a curve, it's got an adaptively set mid-point, based on the energy needed to sustain the same speed.

Outside this zone, it's current throttle.
cruise zone.jpg
cruise zone.jpg (37.97 KiB) Viewed 4128 times
Thoughts?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 23 2012 11:43am

Hyena wrote: Yeah I guess. I suppose it's something you quickly get the hang of but I've had a few noobs say to me "man, I was out having a blast then suddenly ran out of battery and had to pedal the rest of the way to work/home" (oh, the horror! :lol:)
I guess once that happens a few times they learn to keep an eye on the ah!
I'm hoping that the battery gauge graphic will go a long way to eliminating that surprise for riders who don't yet get the gist of Ah. But trying to say "you have 15km of charge left" is potentially asking for trouble when a change in grade or wind could quickly reduce that to 7-8 km.
justin_le wrote: If you engage the ebrake levers by shorting the Bk pad to ground, then the throttle slider is replaced with an animated brake handle ...This is done so that in principle you could use the throttle signal going to 0V in order to activate a regen input on the controller with just a simple comparator circuit, and eliminate the need for a separate wire going to the controller for that
Cool, but shorting bk to ground automatically cuts out the throttle and activates regen (if enabled) anyway - atleast on my controllers it does. Or are you referring to a bk pad on the CA itself ?
Should have been more clear. Yes, I am referring to the EBK pad on the CA itself. I need to check what the logic thresholds are like for the ebrake signal in most of the controllers, because there's a chance you could do this even more simply than a comparator circuit by just linking the throttle to the controller's ebrake input with a diode. So suppose the controller turns on regen when "BK" falls below 1.2V. If you link it to the CA's throttle output via a signal diode, then at a low throttle of 0.9V, the ebrake would be ~1.5V and hence not activated, but the moment the CA's throttle goes to 0V, then the controller's ebrake input falls to about 0.6V, which would enable regen.

Having the CA enable regen has some other benefits too, since it could then take care of regen over-charge protection, and enable regen via other means without needing ebrake cutoffs, (like negative pedal torque or backwards pedalling). It's also in that case possible for the CA to do a low frequency PWM on the ebrake line and potentially modulate the regen force a little bit.
On a serious note, if you're going to have temperature rotating with 3 other parameters having it just flash might not be sufficient if it only displays temp for 2 seconds anyway. Maybe that parameter could stay on and flash if it's causing the CA to cut power. Though I guess if you're really worried about temperature (primarily in hod rodding applications I assume) you'd set up one of the above mentioned custom screens to keep an eye on it, and you'd notice power ramping down before it cut right out.
In my head the idea of overtemp protection limits was to eliminate the need of the rider having back off from the motor overheating, as the CA itself will do that automatically. If all it had was a temperature display, then yes a fairly proactive alerting system would be on order. But since it's also taking care of ramping power down way before temps get critical, then it seems less urgent no? It wouldn't be too hard to have whatever display screen is currently periodically flash to show the temperature whenever it is between the threshold and max value.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 23 2012 11:47am

shorza wrote:I am unfamiliar with thermistors.
10k NTC thermistors on Ebay vary in size and price. Can you recommend one?
Good question that I should have addressed. Anything with a beta constant between 3800 and 4000 should be pretty accurate. At some point we'll make the thermistor lookup table programmable via a PC interface so that you can calibrate it to different models, but for now it is fixed and hard coded assuming B~3900.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by electricwheels.de » Apr 23 2012 4:51pm

Finally I received mine too. :mrgreen:
Sometimes Germany seems to be a loooong way away... :wink:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Apr 23 2012 5:07pm

Got mine today too :D Big thanks to Justin and Adam for getting these out so quick!
I will get the bike rewired later this week and start playing :D

Justin you had better get ready for the myriad of questions! :?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 23 2012 5:20pm

Mine arrived today as well! Yippiaeee!
Oh, and it came with a cycle analogger as well (cause I ordered it...)
Henk


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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by oatnet » Apr 23 2012 10:29pm

hjns wrote:Oh, and it came with a cycle analogger as well (cause I ordered it...)
Another great tool I am happy to have, but it is in serious need of a new name - the term analogger suggests other images to me. :shock: On the other hand, odds are good that the trademark hasn't already been taken like drainbrain was. :lol:

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by electricwheels.de » Apr 23 2012 11:44pm

Hi Justin and others,

I would like to use this high precision digital 1-wire thermometer:

http://datasheets.maxim-ic.com/en/ds/DS18S20.pdf

would this work with the V 3.0 :?:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Alan B » Apr 24 2012 7:39am

Two problems with the DS18S20 type digital temperature sensors:

1: they require a 1wire protocol to read them out which would require special software in the CA

2: they can't handle high temperatures, a hot motor can damage the sensor before the motor is damaged

There are high temperature capable thermistors that will survive in a hot motor and work with the existing programming in the CA.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by miro13car » Apr 24 2012 1:09pm

About speed sensor on CA
I never installed sensor and I don't know how accurate it is but very unlikely
More accurate than Cateye bicycle computer
So how accurate it is after you enter correct wheel tire curcumstance

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 24 2012 1:47pm

miro13car wrote:About speed sensor on CA
I never installed sensor and I don't know how accurate it is but very unlikely
More accurate than Cateye bicycle computer
So how accurate it is after you enter correct wheel tire curcumstance
Why don't you turn it around? Measure a distance of several hundred meters. Then adjust the wheel circumference so that the CA provides you with the correct information.
Henk


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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 24 2012 2:32pm

Hi all,

I am trying to hook up my CA v3. I am runnng 30S 126V HOC.
Anybody can give me a hand with the following?
External VPack: Finally, the last input is for a separate battery voltage signal. For people running >100V, this gives the option of wiring up a resistive divider at your battery side for sensing the pack voltage and feeding just this signal to the CA, with the CA itself being powered from a lower 12V bus or similar. This is a much safer approach for higher voltage systems than powering the CA directly at those levels, and it means up to 650V packs could be supported.
I do not completely understand what a "resistive divider" is, and how to set this up. Justin or someone else, please help me create this?
Thanks very much in advance!
Henk


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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 24 2012 3:12pm

miro13car wrote:So how accurate it is after you enter correct wheel tire curcumstance
For a while I had both the CA and an old bike computer on CrazyBike2, same wheel size set in both, and readings were the same on each one for distance. The bike computer only read out in 0.5MPH increments and was very slow to display changes in speed, so I am not sure how comparable the speed display was--it always was close, but with the lag in display I couldn't always tell for sure. Can't recall the name of the BC right now, but there should be pics of it in my CB2 thread starting about September 2010.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by miro13car » Apr 24 2012 10:10pm

I like to have seperate speed measuring device and Cateye is dead accurate after entering right circumvence.
It is not cheap computer /$35 minimum/ and shows speed in 0.1 km/h increments so not all BC are cheap crap.
It has to be measured with measuring tape on tire compressed under load of rider NOT just entered from the chart in manual.
So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
Couldn't you just measure distance? Did they shaw the same distance?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 25 2012 12:32am

miro13car wrote: So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
In the CA you can set the display refresh rate for most items between 0.025 to 1.6 seconds. However, the speed is asynchronous from this setting and is updated instantaneously with each wheel revolution. On the V3 CA beta firmware, it's actually updated at each pole pulse at the moment, so with a hub that has 23 poles that means a very snappy feedback on the speed reading but it also means the numbers can move faster than you can read them, so I'll likely slow this down.

As with all bike computers, the distance and speed accuracy are just a function of how accurate you are able to know your wheel size, which you can tweak up and down to get the result you want. It's a rather moot question. -Justin
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 25 2012 12:37am

hjns wrote:Hi all,

I am trying to hook up my CA v3. I am runnng 30S 126V HOC.
For that, you should be OK connecting it up directly. Max voltage that the CA will display with the current resistor values is ~150V, so 126V off the charger will be alright. But for the production run we are considering changing the stock divider for 100V max, which gives better accuracy of the more normal ebike voltage range and encourages people running higher voltages to be safer in the installation and not send that directly to the handlebars.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Apr 25 2012 1:56am

miro13car wrote:So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
I have no idea if the speed was sampled any different, but the *display* was updated much less often on the bike computer.

Couldn't you just measure distance? Did they shaw the same distance?
I'll refer you to my post for that answer:
amberwolf wrote:readings were the same on each one for distance.
;)


BTW, I checked, and the bike computer is a Vetta Innovator C100:
Image
probably from the late 1980s or early 1990s. No idea if it's a great unit or crappy one; it came on the Nishiki when I got that at Savers for I think $20. It is so old that they don't have a manual on the website anymore for it, or any similar unit.
http://www.vetta.com/Instruction-Manual

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 25 2012 3:34am

justin_le wrote:For that, you should be OK connecting it up directly. Max voltage that the CA will display with the current resistor values is ~150V, so 126V off the charger will be alright. But for the production run we are considering changing the stock divider for 100V max, which gives better accuracy of the more normal ebike voltage range and encourages people running higher voltages to be safer in the installation and not send that directly to the handlebars.
-Justin
Great, exactly what I need. Thanks for the quick response!
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by miro13car » Apr 25 2012 11:18am

The question was how accurate was CA speed reading
I tried 2 $8 bike computers and no matter how accurate you enter
tire cucimvence still reading not even close to GPS.
So not so moot simple is not only matter what you enter but what alogartm
they use to calculate, right?

I understand for speed reading you still use magnetic pick up.
On newest CA?
Why do mention poles of motor?
Last edited by miro13car on Apr 25 2012 11:54am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by oatnet » Apr 25 2012 11:33am

miro13car wrote:I understand for speed reading you still use magnetic pick up.
On newest CA?
Why do mention poles of motor?
The CA can use either a magnetic pickup in the standalone or speedo version, or get the signal from the hall sensor in the the direct-plug version. The questions you are asking can be answered with a quick RTFM, this site lays out what the CA is and does:

http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

Here is the actual manual:
http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain/CA_Large_V223_Web.pdf
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Apr 25 2012 12:28pm

All versions of the CA can be wired either for a speed signal from the motor or the external wheel speed sensor, 2 minute job to switch from one type to the other.
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Cycle Analyst V3 - Unofficial User Guide / User Manual

Post by teklektik » Apr 25 2012 3:06pm

Unofficial User Guide
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