Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 26 2016 11:13am

Ok. Post back with the results.
I can't reproduce the issue here, so any info will be welcome to help speed this along...
Thanks!

EDIT - Also - does this happen in all presets?
If it gets in this mode, could you please try testing this by powering up fresh after changing to the new preset?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by snellemin » Feb 26 2016 2:42pm

It does it to any mode.

Lunch time I reflashed to an older hex file. Same intermittent results. I'm thinking it's the CA unit itself. I'm going to install another CA and see what happens. Will report back over the weekend.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 26 2016 3:34pm

Ya - looking suspiciously like the button assembly is faulty. You might try making sure the connector is seated properly or try unplugging it.
Thanks for the update.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2016 9:58am

A simple XLS spreadsheet calculator to compute CA Aux min/max settings for 3-position switches can be found on the Unofficial User Guide download page here.

This spreadsheet gives single Aux->MinAuxIn/MaxAuxIn settings to adjust the switch limiting percentages where fixed voltage levels are set with fixed resistors. It provides the same results as the large tables in the Guide, but for specific percentages and any resistor setup (the Grin standard switch is configured as the default). Useful if you are knocking up a switch using odd resistors you have available or want to tweak settings in the field using a phone running a free spreadsheet app (e.g. OfficeSuite).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by snellemin » Feb 27 2016 3:07pm

I installed another CA3 and now the issue pop up a lot quicker.

The one on the right is the new one

Image

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2016 3:51pm

Okay - so the screens are not just scrolling by, they're changing left or right only on a high current spike when you goose the throttle.

This looks to me like a noise issue, but a few questions:
If I understand the previous post correctly, this really doesn't have anything to do with 3.0, but happens with older firmware as well, correct?
What older firmware did you try?
Is it true this recently suddenly started happening, but there have been no changes to the bike at all?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by snellemin » Feb 27 2016 4:20pm

This started when I changed the down and up rate of the throttle. Before that it was fine. No hardware changes to the bike has been made. The last beta firmware was used. I will install an older setting and tone down the Sabvoton as well. I'll report back soon enough.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Nathan » Feb 27 2016 4:58pm

Hi I tried what you recommended

I reflashed the latest 3.0 version software in the CA

and then I check the limit flags and their is NOTHING showing as capital letter when I test it under power.

And again the same thing happens when I run the CA it limits to about 17A and when I bypass the 3 throttle wires and run them direct to controller then I get full power up to 50 amps !

The temperature monitoring is set to 80 to 110 and the motor is like 45 deg so it shouldnt be doing anything.

I don't think any of the display adjustment will make a difference as I am only changing the throttle wireing and I can see the power difference on the CA. SO I am wondering what else could be limiting the power ?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2016 5:13pm

snellemin wrote:This started when I changed the down and up rate of the throttle. Before that it was fine.
Okay.
Which way did you adjust the UpRate (larger or smaller numeric value?)
Are you using either an external shunt or a CA-DP connector that you wired into the controller yourself?
(Ya - I know this sounds like 20 questions, but remote stuff can be a little drawn out...)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by snellemin » Feb 27 2016 5:33pm

I'm using an external shunt.

I triple checked all my wiring, disconnected the temps sensor, limiter switch, toned down the controller and reflashed the CA a few times already. I didn't even use my settings, just the default settings of the CA. So no throttle tweaking at all. Same results.

Are you thinking it could be my shunt connections?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2016 5:42pm

Nathan wrote:Hi I tried what you recommended

I reflashed the latest 3.0 version software in the CA

and then I check the limit flags and their is NOTHING showing as capital letter when I test it under power.

And again the same thing happens when I run the CA it limits to about 17A and when I bypass the 3 throttle wires and run them direct to controller then I get full power up to 50 amps !

The temperature monitoring is set to 80 to 110 and the motor is like 45 deg so it shouldnt be doing anything.
Okay - you haven't mentioned fixing the throttle setup, so I think you need to go through the installation steps from scratch without variation so we understand exactly what has been configured:
  1. Please do the test in section 4.2.1.1 to make sure you have the proper CA interface type. This is the first step of the installation procedure and it expects default values so first use one of the procedures in section "H.4 Restoring Factory Default Parameter Settings" before doing the test. Do not make any settings changes not called out in the instructions.
  2. Do the setup in sections 4.4, 4.5, and 4.6. Do these carefully and do not make any settings that are not specifically called out.
    (In particular, it doesn't sound like it's making any difference, but please do not enable the temp monitoring. Do not change the default throttle mode.)
At this point we should be assured that you have the proper V3 interface, your shunt should be calibrated and zeroed, and we will be certain that your throttle and controller voltage ranges are properly set so the controller can actually be driven to max speed.

Do section 4.7 to verify the throttle adjustments and limit situation. If this does not work, then this is not a Setup configuration issue and you likely have a hardware/wiring issue.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 27 2016 5:50pm

snellemin wrote:I'm using an external shunt.

Are you thinking it could be my shunt connections?
Ya. It sounds like you've been pretty thorough about running down possibilities.
I'm thinking (hoping) this is a ground reference/ground loop issue.
  • Is your main CA ground (black wire on the CA_DP cable) tied to the battery or to the controller side of the shunt?
  • Do you have any other grounds from the CA hooked up (throttle, ebrake, temp sensor, etc)?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by tightbox » Feb 27 2016 8:46pm

I recently purchased a NOS small screen v2.2 CA from GrinTech - the circuit board reads DB2 Rev9.

Anyone here know what the latest/greatest compatible firmware revision number is? While I've got it open, I figure I may as well update it...always liked the form factor of these older CA's!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by snellemin » Feb 27 2016 11:05pm

teklektik wrote:
snellemin wrote:I'm using an external shunt.

Are you thinking it could be my shunt connections?
Ya. It sounds like you've been pretty thorough about running down possibilities.
I'm thinking (hoping) this is a ground reference/ground loop issue.
  • Is your main CA ground (black wire on the CA_DP cable) tied to the battery or to the controller side of the shunt?
  • Do you have any other grounds from the CA hooked up (throttle, ebrake, temp sensor, etc)?
Main CA ground is on the controller side of the shunt.

I even disconnected all other grounds and with the same negative results. Kinda lost here. I'm going to have to physically disassemble everything tomorrow and go from there.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Nathan » Feb 28 2016 7:11am

Okay - you haven't mentioned fixing the throttle setup, so I think you need to go through the installation steps from scratch without variation so we understand exactly what has been configured:

1.Please do the test in section 4.2.1.1 to make sure you have the proper CA interface type. This is the first step of the installation procedure and it expects default values so first use one of the procedures in section "H.4 Restoring Factory Default Parameter Settings" before doing the test. Do not make any settings changes not called out in the instructions.

2.Do the setup in sections 4.4, 4.5, and 4.6. Do these carefully and do not make any settings that are not specifically called out.
(In particular, it doesn't sound like it's making any difference, but please do not enable the temp monitoring. Do not change the default throttle mode.)
At this point we should be assured that you have the proper V3 interface, your shunt should be calibrated and zeroed, and we will be certain that your throttle and controller voltage ranges are properly set so the controller can actually be driven to max speed.

Do section 4.7 to verify the throttle adjustments and limit situation. If this does not work, then this is not a Setup configuration issue and you likely have a hardware/wiring issue.
Ok I did the test in 4.2.1 and yep the wheel spun with no throttle, so mine is A= Ca v3 large screen compatible.

Then a did a factory reset of all settings and reflash firmware again,
Did 4.4 4.5 and 4.6 and setup throttle as per guide.
and 4.7 their is no LImit flags and no temperature limiting, and yep does the same thing ! not full power, everything works fine but its like it ramps too slow to notice the peaks ??? I set the up down rate lhigh like 72v sec but still does the same...

One observation, is it normal when I turn my throttle on that the lights in the CA change brightness ? and when my throttle lights flash for low voltage my CA screen also flashes slightly ? and their is a small change in the voltage reading of the throttle input slightly higher ? is that normal or indicated a wiring issue?

Basically all that i am doing is swapping the 3 main power wires of the throttle, Power , ground and Throut and running them either through the CAv3 or direct to controller when I can see the difference in power of the CA vs direct, i.e it peaks at 23 amps through the CA now but 60 amps direct to controller
Thanks for your help so far this seems like a tricky problem.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 28 2016 9:55am

snellemin wrote: Main CA ground is on the controller side of the shunt.

I even disconnected all other grounds and with the same negative results.
Good sleuthing - exactly what I was going to recommend next - but disappointing it didn't turn up a smoking gun. I had high hopes for the ground issue...

So - here's the thing - I'm on the CA technical staff but Justin has years of experience tracking down wacky CA hardware issues. I can make some standard suggestions, but I think we are better off going to specific remedies that he has found effective in the past.

Justin has been deeply involved in moving the shop and is now going to be traveling for a week or so, but I pinged him about this to see if he can bang out some thoughts before he gets back.

So - last couple of points to get as much detail as possible on the table:
  • What's your battery operating voltage?
  • What do you have hooked up to the CA as accessories or controls (throttle, 3-position switch, etc.)?
  • What kind of throttle do you have? (hall/5K resistive/etc)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 28 2016 10:30am

Nathan wrote: Ok I did the test in 4.2.1 and yep the wheel spun with no throttle, so mine is A= Ca v3 large screen compatible.

Then a did a factory reset of all settings and reflash firmware again,
Did 4.4 4.5 and 4.6 and setup throttle as per guide.
and 4.7 their is no LImit flags and no temperature limiting, and yep does the same thing ! not full power, everything works fine but its like it ramps too slow to notice the peaks ??? I set the up down rate lhigh like 72v sec but still does the same...
Okay - this is good - gets bunches of questions out of the way.
Nathan wrote: One observation, is it normal when I turn my throttle on that the lights in the CA change brightness ? and when my throttle lights flash for low voltage my CA screen also flashes slightly ? and their is a small change in the voltage reading of the throttle input slightly higher ? is that normal or indicated a wiring issue?
Ya - looks like a wiring issue. The CA backlight should not change when you turn the throttle and the slow ramp rate and lack of limiting suggest that the throttle signal (and possibly the throttle Gnd/+5V connections) are not as they should be.

It sounds like you have a combination throttle that also connects to full battery voltage, has LED voltage indicators on it, and maybe a power switch.

It's looking like the throttle is the source of the problem either because of wiring or because of some wonky internal circuitry that is affecting the throttle signal. The best bet is to replace it with a plain vanilla throttle (at least for testing), but I'm guessing you don't have a spare on hand. I frankly don't have any experience with that particular throttle type, but let's get some details on it.
  • You mentioned a low-voltage LED - is this flashing all the time when the throttle is hooked to the CA?
  • Does it have a power or any other switch?
  • What are the individual cable connections and which ones are you moving to the CA throttle connector?
  • Do you have a DMM?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 28 2016 11:37am

teklektik wrote:A simple XLS spreadsheet calculator to compute CA Aux min/max settings for 3-position switches can be found on the Unofficial User Guide download page here.
Rats - too much cut and paste...
Fixed error in current calculation. Reposted.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Nathan » Feb 29 2016 6:25am

Yes its a combination throttle the common ORO cyclone throttle for Kelly controller with on/off switch and LED voltage indications.

yeah I don't have on hand a plane throttle, I also need to keep a switch to enable the controller Positive.

the red low voltage LED flashes when I switch the throttle switch off , which is unusually as this only shows when I have the 3 throttle wires running through the CA, i.e ground, 5v+ and throttle signal. When I run these 3 wires direct to the controller when I switch it off ALL LEd's on the display switch of so their is no flashing red low voltage led. These 3 wires are the only ones I swap. The other wires is Battery full voltage and 2 other heat cutoff wires so think they are unrelated. But yeah when I have switch off and red LED flashes the CA v3 backlight also flashes in the same pulse.

it's weird because the throttle works fine except I can't see to get full power or the display doesn't show full power with through the CA ? Also when I put the throttle on their is a small change in the voltage the CA shows on the screen, i.e 0.71 goes to 0.73v when the throttle is on but twisted fully off, is that unusual ?

I tried one more thing which is change the Kelly max input to 60% from 80% so if for some reason I couldn't get enough voltage at full throttle then it should fix it. nope no difference... I am now wondering if their is a change in the display time and I just missing it but why when I wire those 3 wires I can see the current spikes and double the power? the butt Dyno I can't tell but I think it does feel like half the power when I run through the CA.

Yes I have a DMM.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 29 2016 1:37pm

Nathan wrote:...the red low voltage LED flashes when I switch the throttle switch off...
Although there are some posts on ES about this throttle, there are no details about how it is actually wired. There is reference to a PIC processor in there which I assume is running off the +5V supply. When you hook the 'throttle' wires to the CA I think you are powering the PIC processor from the CA.
Nathan wrote:These 3 wires are the only ones I swap. The other wires is Battery full voltage and 2 other heat cutoff wires so think they are unrelated. But yeah when I have switch off and red LED flashes the CA v3 backlight also flashes in the same pulse.
I doubt those are temp sensor wires on the throttle connector - probably ebrake. Here are a couple of threads and a couple of snaps from those threads:

Lyen 18fet to Cyclone 1000watt Instructions
Headline Motor & Cycle Analyst with limit functions
cyclonethrottle.jpg
cyclonethrottle.jpg (12.1 KiB) Viewed 3878 times
oroThrottle-2.jpg
oroThrottle-2.jpg (12.06 KiB) Viewed 3878 times
Frankly, there does not appear to be a return to the controller for either Vbatt or +5V -- so the switch cannot reasonably be switching Vbatt as it does with other controllers and cannot be switching 5V back to the controller either. The Vbatt connection appears only to be used for the fairly worthless gas gauge LEDs.

So how does this thing work? Oddly, both of the images above suggest that the throttle on/off switch actually controls the power for the throttle electronics - which apparently kills the throttle signal but does not actually power down the controller - again, kind of worthless. On the other hand, if the switch actually does interrupt Vbatt, then it makes sense that the CA-powered throttle electronics would flash the LED when the controller power went away. (?)

So - something is wrong either with those illustrations or guesses as to how this thing works.
The operative word here is 'Guesses'...

Anyhow, if the illustrations above are sort of true, it appears that some bit of throttle electronics and the LEDs are drawing power from the CA throttle +5V supply and that is what is causing the change in the CA backlight when the LED blinks.
  • I assume you have the green CA-DP ThrOut breakout cable connection to the controller ThrIn when you have the throttle hooked to the CA. Measure the voltage at that connection and verify that it is actually as shown on the diagnostic OUT field at full throttle.
  • Also verify that the OUT field shows the max configured throttle out voltage when you are riding at WOT and not getting full power.
If the voltage in the OUT field is correct and the measured voltage at the controller throttle connection tracks the CA OUT reading, then the CA is working correctly and there is some other controller or wiring issue in play. There is nothing more that can be done but to deliver the proper throttle voltage to the controller...
  • Again - guessing at what the throttle is doing, I would recommend disconnecting it completely from the controller when it's hooked to the CA. At the least this will get the menacing-sounding Vbatt away from the CA throttle connections. If the controller won't operate, then we will be pretty certain that the wiring in the illustrations above is incorrect. At that point you are either going to need some additional information on that throttle or start figuring out what the throttle connections to the controller are really doing.
Kelly doesn't supply throttles that I'm aware of, so I'm guessing your throttle came with a kit and was probably fitted with appropriate connectors for that application. The Kellys that I have looked at have wiring for throttle micro-switches but nothing like this throttle seems to provide. If you really want to use this throttle, you may have to disassemble the throttle and figure out what's going on in there. Whatever it is, The LED indicators are not useful and disabling them would not be a loss and would get the Vbatt away from the throttle connections (water in there = Vbatt into CA throttle circuit = very bad).
Last edited by teklektik on Feb 29 2016 2:48pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 29 2016 2:30pm

-snellemin

Justin got back and observed that they have seen this weird button behavior in the past when the button cables had been extended on high power systems. His feeling is that the same noise susceptibility is a work here even though your buttons are stock. The remedy is the standard gimmick of adding some bypass capacitors. The caps will leave the DC levels unaffected and will effectively short out and suppress (AC) noise spikes.

Here you want to bypass the button inputs to Gnd -- the button connector pins are a good place to hook up the extra caps. The center connector pin is Gnd so jump a cap across pins 1+2 and another across pins 2+3. The annoying part is going to be finding a cap value that does the job. Something in the 0.005uf to 0.1uf range should do it. I'd use the small monolithic ceramic caps (multilayer chip caps- MLCC). Remembering that parallel caps add the capacitance and series divides it, you should be able to pick up a several of a few values and cover quite a range for experimentation. If you're lucky you'll just end up with one or two across the pins - otherwise you may need to re-order the final empirically-determined value to get a tidy fit on the PCB.

It's likely that bypassing the power pads on the PCB where the CA-DP cable comes in would also be effective since your issue looks to be noise coming in on the power leads, but since that's a messier tacking job, the buttons are giving the problem, and the button connector is robust and readily accessible, I'd go for the button bypass. You can always resort to the power leads if the easier button solution isn't effective.
CaV3_buttonConnector.jpg
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by snellemin » Feb 29 2016 2:31pm

teklektik wrote:
snellemin wrote: Main CA ground is on the controller side of the shunt.

I even disconnected all other grounds and with the same negative results.
Good sleuthing - exactly what I was going to recommend next - but disappointing it didn't turn up a smoking gun. I had high hopes for the ground issue...

So - here's the thing - I'm on the CA technical staff but Justin has years of experience tracking down wacky CA hardware issues. I can make some standard suggestions, but I think we are better off going to specific remedies that he has found effective in the past.

Justin has been deeply involved in moving the shop and is now going to be traveling for a week or so, but I pinged him about this to see if he can bang out some thoughts before he gets back.

So - last couple of points to get as much detail as possible on the table:
  • What's your battery operating voltage?
  • What do you have hooked up to the CA as accessories or controls (throttle, 3-position switch, etc.)?
  • What kind of throttle do you have? (hall/5K resistive/etc)
Battery is 18s Lipo.
Hall throttle.
Throttle, 3-position and brakes are hooked up to the CA.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 29 2016 2:45pm

snellemin wrote: Battery is 18s Lipo.
Hall throttle.
Throttle, 3-position and brakes are hooked up to the CA.
Thanks. Just wanted to verify the CA regulators weren't on the edge because of high Vbatt and lots of power used by controls - yours has lots of headroom, so no issues there... :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by markz » Mar 03 2016 4:29am

What am I looking for on the PCB board itself, to hook up my CA3-DP?
I already found where the PCB pads are for the USB-TTL cable to program the controller.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Mar 03 2016 12:39pm

any news about 3.1beta an new long awaited features? anything to test?

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