Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » May 22 2012 7:27pm

Waldo wrote:Feature Request
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It would be really great to have a way to send a complete edited setup parameter list to the CA, perhaps through the bootloader.
Yes, that is possible through the current bootloader by deleting all lines in the .hex file associated with the firmware and only leavimg the eeprom ones. Similarly, you can update the firmware without changing any of the setup parameters by deleting the eeprom lines from the .hex and leaving the firmware in place. Rest assured there will be a nicer UI for doing this in the future! but the functionality is in place already.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » May 22 2012 7:42pm

justin_le wrote:...the serial output stream spec hasn't been finalized, but at the moment it sends the following:

Ah, Volts, Amps, Speed, Distance, Temperature, RPM, HumanWatts, Torque(Nm)

There should be a header on the start of the datastream that goes:

Code: Select all

Ah     V      A      S      D      T      R      W      N
Justin-
For purposes of performance comparisons it would be very helpful if there were a couple of additional columns that provided the Vi and Vaux values which would reveal the state of the operator controls. I suppose Vo would might better reveal the controller state, but Vi seems to reflect the operator input a bit better - no strong feeling between the two (having both seems like overkill considering the limited application).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » May 22 2012 8:38pm

justin_le wrote:The CA samples the thermistor voltage input shortly after the throttle input, and so if there isn't another signal pulling it up or down then it will still be floating at whatever the last sampled voltage was at, which is why it appeared to change with the throttle.
Ok. I had been assuming that each analog input had its own discrete A/D, but I guess you must be muxing them all into a single A/D with an analog switch. That explains things.

justin_le wrote:One thing to note though is that you _can_ get issues with the temperature sensor output varying with load if there is a change in the ground reference of the CA and the temp probe ground (which is presumably the hall effect ground in the controller).
Yeah, I agree completely, and this is actually how I drew the image several posts back when I first removed the pullup. My preference would have been to draw both power and ground for the temp sensor directly from the CA itself, but I'm limited by the fact that this is how the motor came wired from Cell_Man, and there aren't any spare conductors coming through the axle that I could use to fix it. (Besides which, I very seriously doubt that I could manage to get two extra wires through there if I tried- the phase wires are doubled-up, so it's an extremely tight fit as it is.)

justin_le wrote:So for instance, if the CA ground is located on a shunt upstream from the controller, then there will be a small voltage drop from this shunt to the actual controller ground plane when you have large amps flowing, and that could result in an increase in the apparent temperature sensor voltage by the amount that the CA's ground drops below the controller ground. You would also have this effect if you were to say run a set of lights from the CA's power port, which would cause the CA's ground reference to increase a bit.
Fortunately, I have the CA wired directly to the controller's internal shunt, and the CA's ground is equal to the controller's ground. Not as good of an arrangement as a completely discrete ground for the temp sensor, but since I'm not drawing any accessory loads across the CA's own ground wire (my headlights are powered independently) there shouldn't be much ground offset between the two. After inserting the resistor, I briefly load-tested it by using the rear brake to hold the system at about 10 amps while applying full throttle, and I only saw about 1-2 degrees temperature rise, most of which is probably attributable to actual heat within the motor.


justin_le wrote:Curious too if others have had throttle cutout issues similar to what lizardboy has mentioned with the B14 firmware? Any feedback could be really useful.
Before I figured out the temp sensor issue I thought I was having this problem (the temp sensor reading was floating to a level above max temp) but once I fixed that, I haven't experienced any such problems. I've only ridden the bike briefly thus far, as my sole power source consists of three old SLA batteries attached to the rear rack with tie-wraps until my new Cell_Man battery arrives, but so far it's been working perfectly.

lizardboy might check to ensure that he has temp sensing disabled in the setup. In looking through his last post where he listed all the setup parameters, I saw no mention of temp either way. (Assuming his pullup resistor is still in place, his temp would be pegged at maximum all the time.)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » May 24 2012 8:20pm

So I got the procedure worked out for how to reliably connect an LM35 temp sensor to the new CA.

As a bit of background, the reason I'm using this device is simple- it's what came with the MAC motor that I bought from Cell_Man. If you're doing this from scratch, then by all means use an LM335 or a 10k NTC thermistor. But for those not in control of what sensor is in your motor, a couple of internal modifications to the CA are required.

The first step is to remove R17, which is the 5v pullup resistor. Having done this, you'll find however that the Temp input on the CA still tends to float to a high voltage, as there is some leakage from the throttle input line. Thus, a pulldown resistor is needed on the Temp line to sink that voltage to ground. I experimented a bit and found that quite a low resistance is needed. With a 1k pulldown, I was still getting several degrees' worth of coupling. In the end, I settled on the same 390 ohms that I'd originally started with, which seems sufficient to keep the drift to within about 1 indicated degree at 20°.

I was still getting some jitter in the reading when the motor was actually running. My preference would have been to install an R/C filter, as is the common engineering practice when designing automotive ECUs and other such devices. The necessity of the pulldown resistor, however, prevents this. The combination of a pulldown and the series resistor of an R/C filter would create a voltage divider, and we can't have that. So I settled on a compromise, copying circuit from the LM35 datasheet, which uses a 75 ohm resistor and a 1uf capacitor in series, between the NTC line and ground.

Here's what the finished product looks like:

Image

The placement of the capacitor is not obvious in this view- it is standing up vertically on the circuit board, with one end on the R17 pad which connects to NTC, and the other end jumped over to the 75 ohm resistor resting on the ground pad. Here's a side view:

Image


With this design,I am seeing jitter of only about half a degree when running the system at 20 amps, which I find acceptable. The temperature display is quite jumpy (either a sample-and-hold or some actual averaging in the software would be nice) but it's entirely adequate for my needs. I haven't had a chance to really heat the motor up yet, however I expect that the magnitude of the jitter will diminish as temperature (and, thus, actual voltage on the NTC line) increases.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » May 26 2012 2:55pm

edited never mind it didn't fix it
Last edited by lizardboy on Jun 26 2012 12:55am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillzofvalp » May 27 2012 11:01pm

I was just thinking today when I passed some cops: what if the CA had a hidden feature that just set all the trip statistics to say MaxS 25.1mph or MaxPower = 747W. That way when I get pulled over I can explain to them what I was recording and explain to them any discrepancy if necessary (they'd be baffled at how cool it was, more likely, and let me go).

I was reading the indiana laws today, learning that they go by the "Average power." In other words I can run 5HP for 1 second and .55HP for the next 9 seconds and still be at a max average power of 1HP. Maybe an Average power statistic is already included but I missed it.

I want to reiterate how useful it is to have a bar graph to display live readings on-the-go (mainly Power).

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillzofvalp » May 27 2012 11:19pm

justin_le wrote:
That said, from a safety perspective it's a good idea to do as Teklektik suggests and use the fault protection and include a resistor inline with the 5V side of the throttle, so that if you do have a break in the throttle ground return it won't cause full power.

-Justin
In my experience this would be helpful. However, when mine went full throttle in testing with the V2.25 CA, it was because the throttle output to the CA broke (with current throttle enabled). I don't think the CA likes an open connection here. Maybe if the throttle output is not within itermmax/min it should be defaulted to whatever 0 throttle is (Aux threshold in my case). If it was covered already, I apologize for not having caught up yet.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » May 28 2012 9:36am

Just to be clear I'm not the only person reporting this issue; Teklektik has experienced as well

Okay so I spoke too soon on saying my problems were gone. I had the problem come back to me on a ride and while I was peddling my As- home I figured out how and what is causing the problem. When the throttle cuts out the CA has no output voltage. It snaps back to the minimum throttle settting and reseting etc. only makes it do the same things. Throttle input is fine. Also curiously it only did it after a charge cycle. This got me thinking about what happens when I charge the battery. I always disconnect the battery pack to charge. In my system I have one of those throttles with a button built in. I use this button to turn on/off the small red wire going into the controller. This alows me to easily disable the motor while I'm going up/down stairs or pushing/carrying the bike somewhere.

I'm able to simulate the problem almost every time by hooking up the power with the button off then activating the button. If I turn on the power with the button in the on position it does it as well if i just use the button and leave the battery power to the controller hooked up it works fine. However I have to add that when it quit on my ride last night nothing would reset it. I tried for 4kms before it finally left cutout mode and returned to normal. Must have reset 20 times to get 4 seconds of power each time. It does this in all modes pass-thru, speed, and current. Finally after many power cycles using the button it clears and works perfectly as long as battery power isn't interupted to the controller. If you cycle the power and don't touch the throttle at all for the 4 seconds then you'll find it cut out in your absence.



So more thinking ensued and I think I've got what the problem is. When I wired the throttle I didn't power it from the CA but instead left it powered by the controller. So my theory is that by turning the system on the way I am the throttle signal is live earlier in the boot sequence than expected throwing off the CA somehow. All the values display correctly when the cutout happens except that the output voltage returns to the minimum output.

So could this all be caused by my throttle wiring or did something change between the emailed version and now that makes this a sensitive issue? It's proably only a few msec. in timing but it explains why it always happenes on the way down the driveway. the only fix seems to be to cycle the power till it works. It does not do this with the version you emailed me not even once. So 100% its the software. HOw about some suggestions or more tests I can perform. The microcontrollers I work with have a real time debugger that allows me to look at all the variables while running. I could look furthur with more information or tools.... Maybe we need to record whats happening with an analogger?
Last edited by lizardboy on Jun 01 2012 1:27pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillzofvalp » May 28 2012 11:25am

Just thought of something. Would it be effective to have the CA PWM the regen signal (mainly for higher power setups or with shunt modded regen power)?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » May 28 2012 1:45pm

If you mean, PWM the braking signal? Probably not on most controllers--several of the ones I've tried havea notable delay both in engaging braking and in releasing it, so PWM would be on the order of half a second to a second per cycle, which unless you are braking on a very long downhill isn't going to have time to do much.

If the controllers have a physical RC circuit used to create that delay, then it could be modified or removed so that PWM would be possible at whatever rate the MCU accepts and responds to braking signals, but I don't know how fast that is, either. Probably not very.

I looked into this when I wanted to add a 555 PWM circuit to my ebrake levers a long while back, but never ended up trying it after I realized the delay problem.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bartimaeus » May 31 2012 3:51pm

Hi, total noob on these forums, but I'm a friend of Farfle. I inherited his small screen CA from him when the larger screen version came out, and I had an idea about a possible security feature that could be added to the cycle analyst/ analogger in future versions and this seems like a good place to post the idea. It's pretty basic: an option to use the microSD card in the analogger as a sort of key for your bike.

The way I think it could work is to add a third wire coming out of the analogger (according to this manual I found for the analogger (page 2) http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain/CA-LOG_ ... Manual.pdf there is an unused connection on the 3.5mm headphone jack) that connects to the RX pin of the cycle analyst and the TX pin of the analogger (haven't gotten to see the schematic or the board for the analogger so I'll just assume there is one). The analogger would then send a string that is stored on the sd card under some file as "bike_password.txt" at startup. If the option is enabled on the CA, if it doesn't receive the string or it doesn't match the stored password, it cuts the throttle input to zero and displays some message like "Bike Locked: Insert Card". The result would be that if some thief can somehow turn your bike on, without the sd card inserted it won't go anywhere.

I realize this isn't a perfect anti-theft solution, and not the CA's main function, but I thought the idea was good enough to pass it along to somebody.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Skippic » Jun 01 2012 10:39am

Justin, any idea when the pilot batch might be available?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Jun 01 2012 7:15pm

Skippic wrote:Justin, any idea when the pilot batch might be available?
Yeah, I'm gagging for it.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 04 2012 7:47pm

folks-

Unfortunately, Justin has suffered the passing of a very close family member and is home with friends and family. He regrets that he cannot pursue this and other business efforts in these trying times but will hasten to resume them in the near future.

I am certain that all our thoughts and sympathies are with him.
Thank you for your patience and support in this time of great personal loss.

-teklektik

EDIT - 6/18 - He's Back!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by wannesd » Jun 11 2012 3:01pm

Hi,

I can't decide whether to buy the CA V2 or V3, as I would need it in 2 weeks time.
Any updates as to when the v3 would become available?

Condolences for the loss Justin...

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Jun 11 2012 3:31pm

wannesd wrote:I can't decide whether to buy the CA V2 or V3, as I would need it in 2 weeks time.
Any updates as to when the v3 would become available?
If you are reading thru this thread, you should note that it hasnt' even finished beta, and now is on hold till Justin is recovered, so I can't imagine it being avaialble in time. You'd have to check directly with Grin Tech to be sure, though.

Personally, I'd hold off till it *is* available, if you need those features. If you don't, then there is no reason to wait at all.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 13 2012 12:44am

Justin, I tested all the ground on the cycle analyst and found that they are all common, including the ground for the V aux input.

So if someone have a let say 400V pack, a C-A and a DC-DC to supply it with the 12V out from the dc-dc, and connect it with resistor divider to that Aux input with the 400V battery , that mean that the 12V ground and the 400V ground will be linked ? :o so the dc-dc will lost his insolation advantage.

wich way would you suggest to use this Aux V input and keeping the HV and 12V isolated ?

mayube using a little DC-DC just for supplying the C-A board?


But in this case, all the other I/O of the C-A will be linked to the HV thru their ground..

I searched for this info and i did not found the answer

Thanks Justin! ( btw, please could you re-upload your last youtube video, it is incomplete )

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » Jun 13 2012 9:41am

What is the problem (or potential problem) that you see with having the low-voltage and high-voltage grounds linked together?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 13 2012 12:21pm

Joe Perez wrote:What is the problem (or potential problem) that you see with having the low-voltage and high-voltage grounds linked together?

i think it's not acceptable usually for safety.

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... 56897.html

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » Jun 13 2012 2:42pm

Interesting. I've no experience with electric cars, but in the world of broadcast transmitters we typically reference everything to chassis, including the 10-15kv plate supply used in the larger tube-type models (yes, we still use tubes.) Admittedly, transmitters are not intended to be occupied while in operation, and this can make for some interesting pyrotechnics when something goes fruity. :mrgreen:

Assuming you want the CA to be able to monitor battery voltage, there's really no easy way around having the grounds common. The same issue arises in the fact that the CA's throttle output voltage is also referenced to its own ground, and presumably the controller to which it will be connected does not segregate the battery's (-) terminal from its own internal logic ground either. (The controller needs to see the CA's ground in order to receive the throttle signal from the CA.)

I suppose you could use a very low-current polyfuse to bridge the two grounds if safety is a concern. Both the CA's VAUX input and the controller's throttle input should be quite high-impedance, so not a lot of current is going to be flowing between them. This will minimize the effect of whatever minuscule resistance exists across the fuse.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 13 2012 10:58pm

Doctorbass wrote:So if someone have a let say 400V pack, a C-A and a DC-DC to supply it with the 12V out from the dc-dc, and connect it with resistor divider to that Aux input with the 400V battery , that mean that the 12V ground and the 400V ground will be linked ? :o so the dc-dc will lost his isolation advantage.

which way would you suggest to use this Aux V input and keeping the HV and 12V isolated ?

maybe using a little DC-DC just for supplying the C-A board?
Joe Perez wrote:What is the problem (or potential problem) that you see with having the low-voltage and high-voltage grounds linked together?
I think it's not acceptable usually for safety.
Doc
First, to be clear, your link is referring to automobiles with a live chassis ground. In the case of an ebike, there is no good reason to use a grounded frame, so the 12v lighting etc is (should be) already isolated from the frame and the dangers of joining the motor and battery grounds are substantially reduced. However, sidestepping a discussion of the 'why' in favor of your wish to keep the vehicle Vbatt isolated from the 12v utility power:

We assume that the Vaux and throttle are being driven with the on-board CA +5v supply (as intended) and accept that various CA inputs will share a ground with the high voltage vehicle Vbatt. This is inescapable by the CA design and without a -Vbatt tie to chassis ground, the dangers appear minimal or at least manageable.

Justin indicates that the internal CA v3 electronics draw about 10ma. Assuming a resistive throttle of about 5K and a resistive Vaux divider of about the same resistance, then we are looking at 5v/5K + 5v/5K = 2ma for a total of 12ma. For a 12v CA power source, the on-board regulator will need to dissipate (12v-5v)*12ma = 84mw, well below the device limit of 1500mw.

The easiest solution is simply to tap the vehicle battery to drive the CA with around 12v. The low 12ma draw is not going to materially unbalance the affected cells and this would leave the existing 12v supply unused and unaffected.

Otherwise, your suggestion to provide a second voltage supply dedicated to the CA seems a good approach. To avoid the large power dissipation to drop Vbatt (400v in your example) to the allowable CA supply voltage, and to take advantage of the very low current requirement (around 12ma above), a good solution might be to use an isolated DC/DC converter component module to provide 12v from the existing available 12v supply. These are available for $10 or less on eBay ('Isolated DC Converter 12V'). The 12v module output will then power the CA and share the vehicle Vbatt ground while the primary utility 12v supply will remain isolated.

EDIT - Authoritative answer from Justin can be found here.
Last edited by teklektik on Jun 19 2012 11:53am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Jun 14 2012 9:00am

Justin, is the std TTL/USB cable for the CA data logger the same as the one that is used for firmware updating of the V3?

I have tried to order one to bring my V3 upto date but when directed from ebikes.ca to PP the postage is not added so i didnt complete the order, or are they on free post :D and i should have gone ahead and completed it?

Or is this something i could quickly knock up myself from a usb lead?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillzofvalp » Jun 14 2012 1:16pm

AWESOME FEATURE REQUEST:

Separate shunt input that Monitors charging cycles so that cycle analyst always has an accurate measurement of SOC (within 1%) For example, if I simply want to bulk charge with a small charger in a parking garage but I do not know when I will be back to the bike, the cycle analyst will simply subtract the Wh charged from the Wh used, without affecting the Wh/mile figure, etc. displaying Ah remaining versus used I think would be more intuitive. I'm many pages behind, so sorry if I'm being redundant.

My condolences...

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 14 2012 1:33pm

Tench wrote:Justin, is the std TTL/USB cable for the CA data logger the same as the one that is used for firmware updating of the V3?

I have tried to order one to bring my V3 upto date but when directed from ebikes.ca to PP the postage is not added so i didnt complete the order, or are they on free post :D and i should have gone ahead and completed it?

Or is this something i could quickly knock up myself from a usb lead?

Simon.
Justin may not yet be monitoring this thread, so an email to ebikes.ca will likely get you a faster response to specific questions, but no promises... Here's a best effort answer:

My Analogger came (this month) with three data cables:
  1. an off-the-shelf USB-A to mini-USB-A cable that plugged into the matching jack on the Analogger proper,
  2. an off-the-shelf straight-thru 3.5mm to 3.5mm audio extender cable to interconnect the CA Tx/Gnd to the Analogger Rx/Gnd (the actual Tx/Rx crossover occurs on the Analogger board not in the cable), and
  3. a two wire female dongle cable (3.5mm audio jack) to be soldered to the CA board at Tx/Gnd.
By comparison, the CA v3 programming cable appears to have an embedded (USB)->(5v RS-232) converter chip. It has a male USB-A connector on one end and a 3.5mm stereo audio plug on the other. A matching three wire female dongle cable (3.5mm audio jack) is provided to be soldered to the CA board at Tx/Rx/Gnd. This is a compatible upgrade to the two wire dongle provided for CA->Analogger communication and affords the extra Rx connection for bidirectional comms with the downloader app.

So - the Analogger uses standard cables but the CA programming cable is not something you can easily cobble together and the supplied CA female 3.5mm dongles differ. The USB/RS232 converter cable and dongle can be sourced elsewhere, but supporting ebikes.ca seems appropriate. :)

EDIT - Authoritative answer from Justin can be found here.
Last edited by teklektik on Jun 19 2012 11:51am, edited 1 time in total.
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Build Thread: 2WD Yuba Mundo V4

Tench   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1033
Joined: Jul 13 2010 12:48pm
Location: Derby UK

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Jun 15 2012 2:47am

Thank you for that Teklektik, it confirms that there is adifference and i do need to order the specific V3 TTL cable from ebikes.ca
Project one http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ilit=tench
Project Two http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=37489
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