Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by redline2097 » Jun 11 2018 12:40am

Thanks. I get it working but I think I like 2 button digital Aux more paired with 3-speed switch. Would this feature be hard to apply to CA software:

When holding aux up or down it would cycle through AuxD->Functions instead of going lowest or highest parameter of current function. When driving with my kids or when going to walkway or going serious offroad section it would be nice to control Speed Lim/ThrO Lim/Pas Level on the fly without touching actual Cycle Analyst display buttons (awkward when riding).

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 11 2018 12:58pm

redline2097 wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:40am
...I like 2 button digital Aux more paired with 3-speed switch.
Cycling through the Aux functions would have some pretty bizarre effects on operation because of the interpretation of the other releated settings that configure those different functions. Here the option would instead to allow it to be configured to control presets as does the 2 or 3 postion switch for AuxA.

This was considered, but it didn't seem an option many would find attractive so the Presets option for DigiAux didn't make the cut.
(EDIT: Incorrect - see below viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=1387241#p1387240)

I might suggest you switch out the pot for a 2 or 3-position switch to control presets and set up the DigiAux buttons with a bunch of levels to replace the pot functionality. You could try this to see if you like it by configuring the CA for a three position switch but just keep the pot installed. You can then switch presets by dialing the pot. Not really very nice in general, but it would give you an opportunity to try the buttons with 20 or so levels to replace the pot.

This won't allow you to apply the buttons to different max settings (ThO, PAS, etc) but you could control one setting by buttons (PAS) and just use the various presets to set some other different max limits in a general way.
Last edited by teklektik on Jun 13 2018 10:26am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by redline2097 » Jun 12 2018 12:46am

teklektik wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:58pm
redline2097 wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:40am
...I like 2 button digital Aux more paired with 3-speed switch.
Cycling through the Aux functions would have some pretty bizarre effects on operation because of the interpretation of the other releated settings that configure those different functions. Here the option would instead to allow it to be configured to control presets as does the 2 or 3 postion switch for AuxA.

This was considered, but it didn't seem an option many would find attractive so the Presets option for DigiAux didn't make the cut.

I might suggest you switch out the pot for a 2 or 3-postion switch to control presets and set up the DigiAux buttons with a bunch of levels to replace the pot functionality. You could try this to see if you like it by configuring the CA for a three position switch but just keep the pot installed. You can then switch presets by dialing the pot. Not really very nice in general, but it would give you an opportunity to try the buttons with 20 or so levels to replace the pot.

This won't allow you to apply the buttons to different max settings (ThO, PAS, etc) but you could control one setting by buttons (PAS) and just use the various presets to set some other different max limits in a general way.
Is it possible to enable the option to choose AuxD input function based on preset? That would be nice too. I could switch presets by 3-button switch and use AuxD for levels? Would this help for "bizarre effects on operation because of the interpretation of the other releated settings"?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by redline2097 » Jun 12 2018 9:01am

I had disaster day in our garage today. I connected the three speed switch to CA instead of potentiometer. Aux Digital and switch are original Grin technologies and are connected to y-plug. After setting up the correct values to analog output to switch between 25kmh, 40kmh and 80kmh speed limit. There was a message "Setup changed" or something and CA restarted. After that the bike didn't move, throttle signal were ok. I noticed that someway it had enabled PAS settings itself and pas level showed something like 265nm (I have not connected PAS and it has been always disabled in the settings). I tried to disable the PAS and when going to pas settings with long press bike hit full throttle with full power like one second. I tried again and it has same impact. This time I was ready and lifted rear up before touching anything. I was scared and I thought I would reset settings and update firmware to newest beta one. Disaster starts to build.

My bike was center of garage leaning on the chair. I connected CA to pc and opened programming software. Put CA on. After I pressed "Flash firmware" it shooted with max amps and max throttle to rear wall of the garage, climbed to the roof and landed over 1m tall shelf. I was able to turn ignition off then, cause bike was sideways and not moving anymore. Half of the garage tools was lying all over the place and room was filled with burned rubber. BIKE IS STILL OK and now properly set again.

WTF happened?

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by methods » Jun 12 2018 11:01am

lol.... RAD.

It is clearly documented that when using the CA in modes where it takes throttle control that it is possible for WOT to occur should settings be incorrect or inverted.

FIRST. . .
Secure the bike (any time you are working on it) in such a way that it can not "run away".

I too have had a bike run straight up the front door and leave skidmarks on the ceiling. This was not from a CA -but from an inadvertent throttle application, on a 100V 80A setup.

in other news...

I came to this thread looking to see if anyone is producing a small PCB to adapt bi-directional, non-contact current sensing, to the CA current input (to avoid the shunt - as we run more like 500A)

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by methods » Jun 12 2018 11:11am

NOTICE:

Any HIGH POWER DIY ebike activity, which is responsible, involves a SAFETY INTERLOCK.
(low power activities... say under 1hp... are not as critical)

This may be as simple as a mechanical switch inline with the controller throttle input along with a "pull down resistor".

This is not mandated (of course...) but a wise option.

The idea is... that you should be able to "do anything you want to the system while powered" and have a single point at which you can block these changes from developing at the wheel.

Lots of options...
And we know that we often have to work on the system powered...

...

I have in my possession
A bike which will "randomly take off full throttle" (FYI it does not have a CA... but same theme)

The root cause is corrosion on the three throttle input pins.
The controller is not of the type sold by Grin - its an Ebay Special

I can lower the probability of full throttle run-away by spraying "terminal cleaner" into the contacts and cycling the connection 5 times. The bike then does not display the run-away behavior... but after a few months... it returns.

Its pretty much my favorite bike :mrgreen:
I have an "Anderson OH SHIT E-Stop on it"
I have pulled it many times... as my 12S battery is strong enough to overcome the mechanical disk brakes.
(hence why I spec hydraulic brakes on anything better than a hp)


-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Jun 12 2018 11:35am

methods wrote:
Jun 12 2018 11:11am
NOTICE:

Any HIGH POWER DIY ebike activity, which is responsible, involves a SAFETY INTERLOCK.
(low power activities... say under 1hp... are not as critical)

This may be as simple as a mechanical switch inline with the controller throttle input along with a "pull down resistor".

This is not mandated (of course...) but a wise option.

The idea is... that you should be able to "do anything you want to the system while powered" and have a single point at which you can block these changes from developing at the wheel.

Lots of options...
And we know that we often have to work on the system powered...

...

I have in my possession
A bike which will "randomly take off full throttle" (FYI it does not have a CA... but same theme)

The root cause is corrosion on the three throttle input pins.
The controller is not of the type sold by Grin - its an Ebay Special

I can lower the probability of full throttle run-away by spraying "terminal cleaner" into the contacts and cycling the connection 5 times. The bike then does not display the run-away behavior... but after a few months... it returns.

Its pretty much my favorite bike :mrgreen:
I have an "Anderson OH SHIT E-Stop on it"
I have pulled it many times... as my 12S battery is strong enough to overcome the mechanical disk brakes.
(hence why I spec hydraulic brakes on anything better than a hp)



-methods
These are all good ideas, but a simpler solution is to lift the bike's drive wheel(s) when parked or when it is being worked on and to keep the drive wheel clear of other objects.

I have experienced "runaway" wide-open throttle on occasions when making changes to the CA settings or firmware or when taking "shortcuts" while working on my bike. My default stand is a two-leg model that keeps the rear wheel off the ground when parked. So, if/when the wheel spins up suddenly and unexpectedly, the bike goes nowhere.

E.g.
BB-20160323-085118.jpg
Power Pursuit parked on two-legged stand
Bill Bushnell
http://mrbill.homeip.net/
Bike build thread can be seen here.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Jun 12 2018 2:48pm

methods wrote:
Jun 12 2018 11:01am
I came to this thread looking to see if anyone is producing a small PCB to adapt bi-directional, non-contact current sensing, to the CA current input (to avoid the shunt - as we run more like 500A)
It is a little different, but there's this, for low current. I'd guess there are versions of the sensor chip that can measure current from the field created by current thru the main battery wires (though the one linked below doesn't work that way):

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicy ... sense.html

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93482&p=1386620&hil ... t#p1386620

Or the phase current sensor that Lebowski uses on his controller design (which might have a version that can do the level of current you need).

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Jun 12 2018 2:57pm

methods wrote:
Jun 12 2018 11:11am


The root cause is corrosion on the three throttle input pins.
Personally, I'd fix that specific problem by removing the connector that is problematic and making a direct connection. ;) Or filling the connector with dielectric grease to keep the water out, at the least.

The switch to cut throttle power (or signal) wouldn't hurt either, but I'd still fix the other issue.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by brickwall » Jun 12 2018 7:27pm

I’ve decided on pass through throttle and unlimited power in my fun mode. It’s very scary but I hope I get used to it (or learn to program the controller). I can’t get seem to get the lag down to a respectable level for that, though it’s wanted in eco mode for easy riding.

What does the new bypass, WOT, etc throttle modes do?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 13 2018 10:22am

teklektik wrote:
Jun 11 2018 12:58pm
This was considered, but it didn't seem an option many would find attractive so the Presets option for DigiAux didn't make the cut. (EDIT: NO!)
Oops - been away from that code for too long and 'misremembered' the final outcome.
The statement above is incorrect - Presets are supported by the DigiAux buttons. My Bad :oops:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 13 2018 10:24am

brickwall wrote:
Jun 12 2018 7:27pm
What does the new bypass, WOT, etc throttle modes do?
Both the Setup Utility Help File and Tool Tips explain these modes.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by brickwall » Jun 13 2018 11:32am

teklektik wrote:
Jun 13 2018 10:24am
brickwall wrote:
Jun 12 2018 7:27pm
What does the new bypass, WOT, etc throttle modes do?
Both the Setup Utility Help File and Tool Tips explain these modes.
Exactly what I needed. Didn't know one existed!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Marc S. » Jun 14 2018 10:08am

Hi tek!

I think I found some bugs in FW v3.11b2 ;)

battery:
-if I switch between battery A and B, the voltages are shown as 0V (Ah value are correct, battery set-up is correct, ect)

pedal cadence:
-average RPM is to low (checked the set-up several times)
I'm using a Patterson Metropolis with 12 magnets on the chain ring and mostly ride in 'overdrive' gear (rpm x 1.6).
Usually the average cadence shown by the CA is between 115 and 125 rpm. Now, after the FW update to v3.11b2 its between 90 and 100 rpm.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 14 2018 10:44am

Marc S. wrote:
Jun 14 2018 10:08am
I think I found some bugs in FW v3.11b2 ;)
Hey Marc!
This is good stuff (not that I'm happy to see bugs, but...)

battery:
-if I switch between battery A and B, the voltages are shown as 0V (Ah value are correct, battery set-up is correct, ect)
I can't seem to duplicate the battery issue.
-How are you swapping batteries (hot swap with buttons or in Console Setup)?
-Is it the main screen display that has the wrong voltage or the next (Electrical Stats) screen to the right?
-Can you PM me a setup file? (No worries if not)

pedal cadence:
-average RPM is to low (checked the set-up several times)
I'm using a Patterson Metropolis with 12 magnets on the chain ring and mostly ride in 'overdrive' gear (rpm x 1.6).
Usually the average cadence shown by the CA is between 115 and 125 rpm. Now, after the FW update to v3.11b2 its between 90 and 100 rpm.
Hmmm - not so good. The rpm logic was revised somewhat in this release and was checked for accuracy on the scope early on. It may be that a subsequent tinker fouled it up...

Thanks for the post - appreciated!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Marc S. » Jun 14 2018 12:43pm

teklektik wrote:
Jun 14 2018 10:44am
I can't seem to duplicate the battery issue.
-How are you swapping batteries (hot swap with buttons or in Console Setup)?
-Is it the main screen display that has the wrong voltage or the next (Electrical Stats) screen to the right?
Battery voltage in the main screen and 'Electrical Stats' is correct (anywhere else its correct as well).

Only if I switch between battery's with the two main buttons, the 'Battery choice pop-up screen' (in my case it should read: 'Battery A, 36V/36Ah' or 'Battery B, 72V/18Ah') displays 'Battery A, 0V/36Ah' or 'Battery B, 0V/18Ah'.


An other thing:
Any news on the 'cell voltage only' feature for the main screen? Still undecided if (or if not) it gets implemented?
Having '70 odd volts' on the main screen is kind of a dead giveaway at first glance, if any uniformed official might take interest in my trikes.


This is the CA set-up file:
Last edited by Marc S. on Jun 14 2018 10:40pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 14 2018 5:27pm

Marc S. wrote:
Jun 14 2018 12:43pm
Battery voltage in the main screen and 'Electrical Stats' is correct (anywhere else its correct as well).

Only if I switch between battery's with the two main buttons, the 'Battery choice pop-up screen' ..."
Ratz - missed that one.
Ok, I have PMed you an alpha test version that should correct the display issues. Let me know how it goes.

Marc S. wrote:
Jun 14 2018 12:43pm
Any news on the 'cell voltage only' feature for the main screen? Still undecided if (or if not) it gets implemented?
Frankly, we've been swamped with Justin's Sun Trip efforts and four different CA firmware products in the last months. The battery thing just never had a chance to see the light of day. Sucks, but...

Anyhow - thanks for the setup file. Looking at that PDQ.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by gronph » Jun 15 2018 5:47am

are there any news with the Bluetooth/Android thig?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Jun 17 2018 2:02pm

tek, i got two questions:

.) after riding with b9 for quite some month i decided to upgrade to latest firmware. read something about a 3.1 RELEASE version, but couldn't find any. is b22 the latest version?

.) my magnetic speed sensor is somehow broken. maybe. i don't get any speed reading anymore. what's the best way to diagnose? could be anything from a broken sensor to a a broken wire or connector.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 17 2018 3:08pm

Hey izeman!
izeman wrote:
Jun 17 2018 2:02pm
uite some month i decided to upgrade to latest firmware. read something about a 3.1 RELEASE version, but couldn't find any. is b22 the latest version?
The latest release is 3.11b2 but a b3 is about to be released to fix up a display glitch discovered by Marc S. (thanks Marc!).

So - what you need to do is go to the CA3 web page and download the newest Setup Utility (1.54). It has a button on it to fetch new firmware - we don't post FW anymore - it comes through the app. Since you're about to load up anew. I'll PM you the new b3 and you can be the first beta tester. I'm expecting it to go live in a few days anyhow.

Also - check out the Help File for explanations for the settings and to get the Release Notes (see Nav Bar at top of page). The help info also appears as Tool Tips if you hover on a setting in Setup Utility.
izeman wrote:
Jun 17 2018 2:02pm
.) my magnetic speed sensor is somehow broken. maybe. i don't get any speed reading anymore. what's the best way to diagnose? could be anything from a broken sensor to a a broken wire or connector.
No magic there, just fiddle around. Be sure the magnet lines up with the indented ring on the reed body. I would go to Console Setup at the Speedometer category preview screen where you can see the 'P' with little arrow. Then give the wheel a good spin and mess around with the magnet position and connectors while watching for the arrow to start flipping. Not much, but all I've got on that one. :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Jun 18 2018 12:08am

Thanks. Received your pm.
My question about the speed sensor was on the electric side: Can i test it? Do i test resistance of it? Or apply voltage? Is this a hall sensor?
If i open the 2 pin connector between the CA and the sensor what can i measure on the CA side and what on the sensor side? This would help me narrow down the problem.
Edit: it's a reed switch?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 18 2018 8:17am

izeman wrote:
Jun 18 2018 12:08am
My question about the speed sensor was on the electric side: Can i test it? Do i test resistance of it? Or apply voltage? Is this a hall sensor?
If i open the 2 pin connector between the CA and the sensor what can i measure on the CA side and what on the sensor side? This would help me narrow down the problem.
Edit: it's a reed switch?
Sorry 'bout that - misunderstood the question...

Yep, it's a simple reed switch - no internal electronics. Test it for continuity - it should close with a magnet nearby. It's wired between the sense input and Gnd. The sense input has a weak pull-up resistor to +5V so it should normally read 5V. Closing the reed switch drags the sense input to GND. So - basically it looks like an ebrake input.

If you don't want to take the hit on shipping, you can replace it with a pickup from any cheapie bike computer - a direct replacement. You can also use a hall there if you wish - one of those encapsulated ones or even a regular motor hall - just steal 5V for the hall from the Aux connector or Aux PCB pad. I tried a hall on one of my bikes, but actually went back to the Grin reed - the darn things are small and in my experience seem to last forever.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Jun 18 2018 9:18am

thanks tek. this makes finding the problem easier. i will open the connector in the middle and see if i can test gnd/5v on one side, and a open/close circuit on the other. that helps a lot! i got spare parts at home, but starting with a straight forward diagnosis makes it easier.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Jun 18 2018 11:28am

Tek, next question : what voltage would i expect on the SP pad? I'm measuring 0.6V against GND. Is that ok? And if not what could cause that?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jun 18 2018 12:30pm

izeman wrote:
Jun 18 2018 11:28am
Tek, next question : what voltage would i expect on the SP pad? I'm measuring 0.6V against GND. Is that ok? And if not what could cause that?
Oops. I just checked the schematic - I had forgotten about the Schottky diode there with the cathode on the the Sp pad. So - electrically dissimilar from the ebrake input after all. This is arranged as a current-sinking input - only works by sinking current to GND.

Anyhow, you should see about 4.7V-4.8V.

That 0.6V reading is odd. I would guess the reed switch contacts may be stuck together or the cable shorted. I would disconnect/unsolder the Sp connection and try manually shorting Sp to Gnd while watching the Setup preview screen arrow. Should flip down/up, etc. This is really the definitive test of whether the CA can see a signal.

And/Or - With the cable unsoldered you can measure Sp vs Gnd again. If you still get the same low voltage, you probably should email Grin. Except for C12 which is a tiny cap to Gnd, there is only that single diode between Sp and the processor - not a lot of ways for things to go awry.
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