Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 03 2018 5:42pm

This could be good to run quadrature (2-wire) mode - 'Case B' above - but we need to see these waveforms when pedaling in reverse as well to be sure the phase relationship changes for reverse. We want the signal value of PAS-SHIFTED to be different for the rising edge of PAS, so when the PAS edge comes up the CA can tell the direction by looking at the PAS-SHIFTED signal (e.g. hi = FWD, LO=REV)

pas-pasShifted.png
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Oops - I didn't read this carefully from an earlier post:
Daxxie wrote:
Sep 03 2018 2:46pm
Only the D arrow moves up and down if I turn the pedal by hand.
If I disconnect the PAS signal and connect Speed/Direction to the PAS solder pad,
then the P arrow goes up and down.
But that now seems consistent with this new observation:
Daxxie wrote:
Sep 03 2018 2:46pm
I tried connecting PAS to RPM and PAS-Phasesift to DIR on the CA but only DIR arrow goes up and down.
The waveforms look promising for the 'Case B' scheme above, but it's strange the CA can't see that PAS signal. Perhaps it just needs a pull-up or pull-down resistor. Can you scope the PAS signal when it's wired up to the RPM input? I'm guessing It's probably sitting high or low instead of being pulsed as when disconnected. Also which way is the P arrow pointing when PAS is hooked up to RPM?
Daxxie wrote:
Sep 03 2018 2:46pm
However if I connect the speed/direction on CA PAS and Phaseshift on DIR then both arrows move??
(I can't understand why! As we saw in the first video the Bafang PAS and Speed/Direction are almost identical.)
'Almost Identical' is not good enough. The frequencies are off by a factor of two and there is no phase shift so quad encoding cannot work.

Did you try 'Case A' above? That doesn't use the PAS signal and should work fine except for the backpedal-turns-PAS-OFF feature.
Daxxie wrote:
Sep 03 2018 2:46pm
If I turn the pedal by hand (motor is still on the bench) I expect the motor to engage because it should see a cadence, right?
Yep, but to take torque out of the pisture, just configure the PAS device and config for 'Basic PAS' and 'Basic(Pwr)'. Once the PAS cadence stuff is working you can enable the torque mode.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by electricwheels.de » Sep 04 2018 1:38am

Daxxie wrote:
Sep 03 2018 6:23am
In SETUP PAS SENSOR shouldn't the P and D arrows move up and down?
Only the D arrow moves up and down if I turn the pedal by hand.
If I disconnect the PAS signal and connect Speed/Direction to the PAS solder pad,
then the P arrow goes up and down.
already were there in this post on page 154 viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=1347365&hil ... e#p1347365
electricwheels.de wrote:
Dec 30 2017 5:07am
When I connect them to the appropiate pads of the CA3, only the DIR arrow moves (up and down) when I pedal. Now, when I swap the PAS and DIR wires, the same thing happens.
Both the sensors AND the CA3 are OK. There is a difference between PAS and DIR hardware on board level though.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Daxxie » Sep 04 2018 2:45am

electricwheels.de wrote:
Sep 04 2018 1:38am
already were there in this post on page 154 viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=1347365&hil ... e#p1347365
Thanks Reinhard :-)
teklektik wrote:
Sep 03 2018 5:42pm
This could be good to run quadrature (2-wire) mode - 'Case B' above - but we need to see these waveforms when pedaling in reverse as well to be sure the phase relationship changes for reverse. We want the signal value of PAS-SHIFTED to be different for the rising edge of PAS, so when the PAS edge comes up the CA can tell the direction by looking at the PAS-SHIFTED signal (e.g. hi = FWD, LO=REV)
In reverse there is a phaseshift, maybe wasnt obvious in the video but I pedaled forward, reverse and forward again.

teklektik wrote:
Sep 03 2018 5:42pm
Did you try 'Case A' above? That doesn't use the PAS signal and should work fine except for the backpedal-turns-PAS-OFF feature.
Just tried this.
If I hook up the Bafang's Speed/DIR signal to CA PAS and choose 1-wire mode: IT WORKS!
Image
If I stop pedaling or pedal reverse motor disengages (after ± 1 second)



teklektik wrote:
Sep 03 2018 5:42pm
The waveforms look promising for the 'Case B' scheme above, but it's strange the CA can't see that PAS signal. Perhaps it just needs a pull-up or pull-down resistor. Can you scope the PAS signal when it's wired up to the RPM input? I'm guessing It's probably sitting high or low instead of being pulsed as when disconnected. Also which way is the P arrow pointing when PAS is hooked up to RPM?
This really puzzled me.
The CA (the P arrow) only reacts to the Speed/DIR wire not to PASPhase or PAS. The arrow is pointing up when they are connected.
So you got me thinking. I pulled some old resistors out of a broken power supply and connecteded them as a pull-down resistor. Guess what??
The thirth one that I tried (15K) did the trick. I have a moving P arrow! Connected the PAS-Phasewire to Dir, PAS to PAS and after changing the settings to 2-wire and "5V reverse" it works great.
Image

I'm not sure about the 32-pulse setting.
I counted 32 P-arrow movements on 1 pedal rotation: 16x UP 16x DOWN
Is that correct?

Thanks for helping me solve the PAS issue.


I do have another question.

When I first set up the Phaserunner I used some BBSHD values I found on this forum.
4 polepairs and around 50rpm/V
The autotune did it's job and came up with this:
Image

Then I read this somewhere

I have got some basic info from Justin directly:
there are two ways of tuning the PR to a mid drive like the BBSHD system. Either you look at the total pole pair and gear ratio from the motor to the crank, and run autotune in reference to the crank RPM. Or you do it in reference to the motor itself and do everything in terms of the motor RPM.
From what I remember the BBSHD motor has 8 magnets, so 4 pole pairs, and then has a ~22:1 gear ratio to the cranks, with an effective crank RPM/V of 3.5
So you can use 88 pole pairs and initial KV guess of 3.5, or you can use 4 pole pairs with initial KV guess of 77 rpm/V or so. Either way will work fine.


The Ultra has a gear ratio of 18,26

So I tried 4 x 18.26 = 73

73 Polepairs
3RPM/V

Autotune came up with
Image

Also tried 8 poles and 28RPM/V.
They all work, they all get the motor spinning but there is a difference in RPM and Throttle behaviour.

4 pole setting is around 115rpm (2100 motor rpm) - throttle works like it should.
73 polepairs = 180rpm - when releasing the throttle (between 1.5 and 2.2V) rpm goes up a bit.

When I apply some field weakening (10A) it really gets scary.

4 pole roughly stays the same.
Image


But in the 73pole setting RPM shoots up (on releasing throttle) from 180 to 580rpm !!!
With a 18.26 ratio that is more then 10.000 rotor rpm
Image

Which polepair setting is advisable?
What can explain that weird throttle behaviour?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kimovitzh » Sep 04 2018 7:46am

teklektik wrote:
Sep 03 2018 12:16pm
Holiday weekend - so a quick answer...
Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 03 2018 7:50am
But when I engage preset #1 again it just presumes the Auto cruise.
Before the update it was reset so it didn't just engage when shifting back.

Does this make sense?
I need to look this up but I believe this may be a known issue. I'll get back.

Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 03 2018 7:50am
2: I've noticed that when I give it full throttle with all the settings at max, it goes to about 10kW and as it speeds up and hit ca. 70km/h the wattage goes down and lingers at 3-4kW and the speed just snails upwards.
Take a look at the Diagnostic Screen and examine the Limit Flags while this is happening. This will reveal what the CA thinks requires limiting power.

I'll look at the setup file tomorrow - thanks for attaching.

OK, when I give it full throttle the S flag gets big and when I return to main display the kph "sign" is flashing.
But as you can see in the file, when I'm preset #1 there is no speed limit. So what gives?

When "Input Throttle Mode" is set to bypass, it just revs and goes.
When it's on "Pass-thru" or "Current" and I crank the throttle, it is like it speeds up in steps all the way to the top.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 04 2018 9:42am

electricwheels.de wrote:
Sep 04 2018 1:38am
already were there in this post on page 154 viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&p=1347365&hil ... e#p1347365
Hey Reinhard!
Good memory jogger - I didn't remember that earlier post. Unfortunately, no clear resolution there, though...

Daxxie wrote:
Sep 04 2018 2:45am
teklektik wrote:
Sep 03 2018 5:42pm
Can you scope the PAS signal when it's wired up to the RPM input? I'm guessing It's probably sitting high or low instead of being pulsed as when disconnected. Also which way is the P arrow pointing when PAS is hooked up to RPM?
This really puzzled me.
The CA (the P arrow) only reacts to the Speed/DIR wire not to PASPhase or PAS. The arrow is pointing up when they are connected.
So you got me thinking. I pulled some old resistors out of a broken power supply and connecteded them as a pull-down resistor. Guess what??
The thirth one that I tried (15K) did the trick. I have a moving P arrow! Connected the PAS-Phasewire to Dir, PAS to PAS and after changing the settings to 2-wire and "5V reverse" it works great.
Great news! Glad to see that resolved....

FWIW: Here's the thinking behind the request to look at the RPM arrow with the Bafang connected and why it might lead to the pull-down experiment:
  • Because you were able to capture a PAS waveform that output could not be a simple open collector driver - it needed to have at least a pull-up or be a different output stage. This was a little confusing since we knew there are only fairly large value pull-ups on the RPM and DIR inputs. This doesn't make sense for open collector or push-pull output stages. It kind of suggested that Bafang had perhaps thrown a few transistors onto the output of the PAS hall signal to get the phase-shifted and unshifted PAS signals and to save parts they might have chosen to pull the output up to 5V when ON and use a pull-down resistor for the OFF default (low) - essentially the opposite from a regular hall (i.e. ON = low OFF = high). In that case, if you tested and found the RPM arrow stayed pinned at 5V (arrow up) then we might think that the pull-up on the RPM input was simply overpowering the weak pull-down on the PAS output forcing it high to the ON state so when the PAS output stage actually turned ON (high) there was no change - no signal alternation would appear.

    When you added a sufficiently small pull-down, you overwhelmed the pull-up in the CA and restored the desired low OFF state. Now the output alternates properly as the output stage switches ON and OFF (high and low).
Daxxie wrote:
Sep 04 2018 2:45am
I'm not sure about the 32-pulse setting.
I counted 32 P-arrow movements on 1 pedal rotation: 16x UP 16x DOWN
This indicates 16 poles where each pole gives a transition and then returns to the original state.

Daxxie wrote:
Sep 04 2018 2:45am
I do have another question.
This appears to be entirely a Phaserunner issue. It's off topic here and to get the best readership and response, you want to post this up in the PR thread: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

If you don't get a good response, email Grin directly.

Thanks for the tests and detailed results to get this Bafang thing squared away. I put a link to your Bafang answer in the CA3 'Posts of Interest' index :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 04 2018 10:35am

Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 03 2018 7:50am
Iv'e got 2 presets, and on one of them I have Throttle Auto Cruise enabled (Preset #1).
When I'm the preset with Throttle Auto Cruise and it is engaged and I then shift to preset #2, the Throttle Auto Cruise stops, obviously. But when I engage preset #1 again it just presumes the Auto cruise.
Before the update it was reset so it didn't just engage when shifting back.

Does this make sense?
Autocruise should be disengaged when changing presets, but is not - at least in some circumstances. This issue was previously reported and there is a ticket written to look into it. I cannot speak to the details or whether this behavior changed from 3.0x to 3.1x, but I have added your incident to the ticket. This should be fixed in the first 3.2 beta release. Thanks for the post!

Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 03 2018 7:50am
2: I've noticed that when I give it full throttle with all the settings at max, it goes to about 10kW and as it speeds up and hit ca. 70km/h the wattage goes down and lingers at 3-4kW and the speed just snails upwards.
...
As far as I remember, before the update it just kept going until it hit a max speed at around 105km/h.
Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 03 2018 7:50am
When "Input Throttle Mode" is set to bypass, it just revs and goes.
When it's on "Pass-thru" or "Current" and I crank the throttle, it is like it speeds up in steps all the way to the top.
ByPass mode is a diagnostic mode where the throttle goes through the CA without change, it's essentially connected directly to the controller, so no surprise there - the CA is not controlling anything.

Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 03 2018 7:50am
OK, when I give it full throttle the S flag gets big and when I return to main display the kph "sign" is flashing.
But as you can see in the file, when I'm preset #1 there is no speed limit.
The file you send shows limits of 80kph and 70kph for presets 1 and 2 respectively, so this bike will never get to 105kph. You may have made a change when experimenting and forgotten... (happens to me all the time)

the Unofficial Guide wrote:e. display elements flash to indicate significant status conditions:
  • exceeding a limit causes the units to flash: 'kph/mph' flashes if over the configured speed limit,'V' flashes if below LVC,
  • the speed digits flash if the present speed is less than the configured Start Speed,...
The flashing speed units and the 'S' flag both indicate that you are being speed limited. I suspect you are either exceeding one of the preset limits or are accelerating hard towards a limit. In the latter case the DSGain setting can come into play causing the CA to throttle back so you won't overshoot and exceed the speed limit - even though you haven't actually done so yet. It's the nervous grandma riding with you that is freaked out by you tromping it off the line even though you're not really going fast (yet).

So - try fixing up preset #1 with a huge limit. If that doesn't work and you want the speed limit of preset #2, then you will need to tune up the speed PID to better accommodate you more powerful bike. There's notes on that in the Guide. If that doesn't go well or you can live without speed limiting altogether, you disable it by setting SLim->MaxSpeed to the maximum value, IntSGain = 100, PSGain = 0, DSGain = 0.
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Kimovitzh   10 mW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kimovitzh » Sep 04 2018 10:50am

teklektik wrote:
Sep 04 2018 10:35am

The file you send shows limits of 80kph and 70kph for presets 1 and 2 respectively, so this bike will never get to 105kph. You may have made a change when experimenting and forgotten... (happens to me all the time)
Are you sure that it's my file that you looked in?

I've just opened the one that I send you and this is what it says.

Image

Am I looking the wrong place?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 04 2018 1:33pm

Kimovitzh wrote:
Sep 04 2018 10:50am
Are you sure that it's my file that you looked in?
Oops - (too many saved customer files in that directory) + (bad click) = (your post) :oops:

So - (now) looking at the proper file:
Your setup looks as you posted above and in general the file looks fine.

I loaded up your config and ran it on the bench and it does demonstrate speed limiting under hard acceleration and shows some UpRate limiting as well. Loading 3.04 over your setup causes different behavior as you described - in particular, it shows much reduced effects due to hard acceleration. 3.0x firmware does not have the rate flags and so it's not immediately obvious what role that feature is playing.

Speed calculation underwent some changes for 3.1, but there were some sweeping changes to the ThrOUT calculations as well. I would need to drill into this more, but your observations are correct. I am writing a ticket to look into this, but it's unclear that the present behavior is actually incorrect.

To address your problem immediately, I would recommend backing down DSGain to make the CA more tolerant of acceleration. The Speed PID should really be tuned instead of changing speed gain parameters willy-nilly, but the DSGain setting might be viewed as the last tuning step anyway so you could try a quick test by reducing DSGain to 0 or a small value like 10 or so (see section "Appendix F. Speed Gain Adjustment Procedure" of the Guide for some hints).

Thanks for pointing this out... :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scotty T » Sep 12 2018 11:52pm

I finally updated my firmware from 3 prelim 9 to the latest last night. The new PAS settings are great and I'm getting a really smooth takeoff now. Note sure why I waited years to do it, probably didn't want to mess things up but I took pictures of all the screens on the CA then put the values into the software after I had to do a reset.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by kevinscargobike » Sep 13 2018 12:05am

I just thought I’d update on my surgy Sempu behavior. I’d solved it well enough, but since I’d changed lots of settings, I didn’t really know what had really fixed it.

While riding around a lot with passengers in the front of my bike (toddler, adult, adult+toddler), I decided that I’d really like a bit more accelleration when crossing busy streets, so I upped my A-Gain from 10 incrementally up. I would up at 120 or so, which was a lot of fun, but I noticed that the unwanted acceleration came back with a vengeance. I think I ended up compromising somewhere around 30 or 40.

(Am I way out in left field? It seems like the W-gain would affect PAS output, but it sure feels like A-gain does. More generally, when should I tweak A-gain, W-gain and when should I tweak up and down rates?)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 13 2018 11:52am

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 12 2018 11:52pm
Note sure why I waited years to do it, probably didn't want to mess things up
Well, I'm a big believer in "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" myself, so.... :D
Scotty T wrote:
Sep 12 2018 11:52pm
I took pictures of all the screens on the CA then put the values into the software after I had to do a reset.
Although the new Setup Utility copies over compatible settings itself, when I need to do a reset, I save the old settings and open them in a second Setup Utility for side-by-side comparison to manually copy stuff over. Goes pretty quick...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 13 2018 12:14pm

kevinscargobike wrote:
Sep 13 2018 12:05am
(Am I way out in left field? It seems like the W-gain would affect PAS output, but it sure feels like A-gain does. More generally, when should I tweak A-gain, W-gain and when should I tweak up and down rates?)
Well - the Gain settings are both in play and control the feedback of the Current and Power PID controllers respectively. The lower of the two PID controllers wins as the most 'limiting' which depends on how your system is configured. These are really designed to be tuned to minimize surging or oscillations due to overshoot. Large values give quicker response at the cost of a greater likelyhood for oscillations - which may be a couple of corrective swings or an ongoing pulsing. These only indirectly affect acceleration and aren't primarily intended for that. Acceleration is the business of the MaxCurrent and MaxPower settings which set the limits for the amount of current you can pour in for acceleration and hill-climbing. The Gain/Rate settings affect that power application, but are normally tuned for rapid responsive application so the throttle isn't mushy.

There is interaction between the Rate settings and the Gain settings since they both can dampen power application and so discourage overshoot or smooth out getaways, etc. There are different schemes for doing this. The easiest to tune is to set the UpRate as you wish then dampen any overshoot with Gain. The most flexible is to minimize UpRate, tune away any overshoot, then increase the UpRate however you want - the Gain setting will always work. This second one is more annoying to tune because the aggressive UpRate makes overshoot more likely and so the Gain setting takes a more careful tweaking. In either case, the final step is to adjust PasRate to smooth out PAS getaways.
  • BTW - we just found a problem with PAS rpm errors at very low cadence levels (below 13 rpm)- the problem was introduced back in 3.1 but was pretty elusive to replicate. Anyhow, that's fixed and will be out before too long in 3.13 beta.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ebike11 » Sep 16 2018 7:55am

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 12 2018 11:52pm
I finally updated my firmware from 3 prelim 9 to the latest last night. The new PAS settings are great and I'm getting a really smooth takeoff now. Note sure why I waited years to do it, probably didn't want to mess things up but I took pictures of all the screens on the CA then put the values into the software after I had to do a reset.
Is this the firmware you updated to CA3-1b2 ? Not sure if this is the most up to date firmware though

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 16 2018 10:21am

ebike11 wrote:
Sep 16 2018 7:55am
Is this the firmware you updated to CA3-1b2 ? Not sure if this is the most up to date firmware though

GetNewFirmware.png
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scotty T » Sep 16 2018 8:42pm

teklektik wrote:
Sep 16 2018 10:21am
ebike11 wrote:
Sep 16 2018 7:55am
Is this the firmware you updated to CA3-1b2 ? Not sure if this is the most up to date firmware though
GetNewFirmware.png
^^ That's exactly what I did.

Last night I went to make a small tweak and wiped everything because I wrote the new default file instead of loading my existing one, then saved over my original one thinking it was already open. Rookie mistake.

I rode to work this morning and things are pretty wacky with PAS not giving much power up hills, so I think I've missed something in the PAS settings that got reset. I'll double check the settings and post up my hex if I have no joy.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 16 2018 9:30pm

Don't forget Misc->Defaults that allows you to save/restore settings within the CA itself. This is handy if you like what you have but want to tinker a bit. If the experiment doesn't pan out, just restore the settings locally.

FWIW: When saving setup files, I suffix the setup with the ISO date and time so setup files with same non-date prefix name get displayed in date order by Windows. For example:

paratrooper-Mac10T_3.2a2_20180912_1330.hex and
paratrooper-Mac10T_3.2a2_20180912_1350.hex twenty minutes later.

By never updating a setup file, accidents are rare - although there can be a bit of file clutter... :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scotty T » Sep 16 2018 11:26pm

I had a look and everything is as expected on the settings so maybe I misunderstood them a bit for the PAS.

I have set the PAS to Basic (Pwr) and Strt Level to 200w, ScaleFactr 3w/rpm. This gives a nice smooth takeoff, but it only ever gets to about 300w, even though the PLim>Max Power is set to 550w.

The result is when I hit a hill and my pedaling slows down the watts reduce, and I'm riding a 21kg bike up hills with only about 240w coming from the motor, there really was no point having the motor on this morning's commute, it was harder to ride than my normal bike except for stopping and starting, which happens 1-2 times on my 14km commute, the rest is non stop pedaling, I generally keep my cadence about the same at all times.

Previously I only had Auto PAS and had Start Thrsh at 10 and PAS Watts at 650. The effect was that there would be a lag taking off then full boost which was a bit abrupt, it would pull hard up hills and power along to my max speed on the flat.

What I want it to do is to start at 200w with no lag for a nice low speed initial takeoff and then ramp up smoothly all the way to my Max Power setting, I can't figure out how to do it.

I am at work and can't load up my hex file, and I have to ride the thing home, so I'm thinking to get home I will need to up my PAS->Strt Level back to 550w and ScaleFctr to 0 which will return to what I had before, and maybe make the Strt Thrsh a bit lower to return the lag so it doesn't just blast off.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Dumsterdave » Sep 17 2018 7:03am

Is it possible to enable regen without an ebrake or button? Like maybe just rolling off the throttle?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scotty T » Sep 17 2018 7:16am

I made the adjustment mentioned in my post above. It still felt quite slow compared to the 550 PAS watts previously on AutoPAS. It seemed to be surging and not delivering constant power, even though the readout said ~550w and now and then would go to a bit over 600, sporadically though, sometimes up hills was still staying on ~550w but felt like much less. It might have been surging on the lower setting but not as noticeable. Attached is my hex file as it was this morning.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/124A-1s ... sp=sharing

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 17 2018 9:22am

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 16 2018 11:26pm
I have set the PAS to Basic (Pwr) and Strt Level to 200w, ScaleFactr 3w/rpm. This gives a nice smooth takeoff, but it only ever gets to about 300w, even though the PLim>Max Power is set to 550w.
If you are getting 300W with a base assist of 200, then your cadence is (300W-200W)/(3W/rpm) + 50 rpm = 80rpm

This is around average and the CA appears to be performing as expected. To reach 550W with these settings you would need to be pedaling at:
(550w-200W)/(3W/rev) +50rpm = 166rpm (unlikely)...

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 16 2018 11:26pm
The result is when I hit a hill and my pedaling slows down the watts reduce, ...
This is where you downshift which increases the rpm and hence the power output.

In the end, the rpm scaling is not a substitute for a torque sensor. Rpm Scaling can be helpful to expand the range of riding speeds on the flat or modest terrain before you need to adjust the PAS assist, but cannot reasonably address widely varying terrains where you simply need fairly divergent amounts of assist. If you don't downshift as you normally would on hills, it will clearly have a negative effect as power will certainly fall off with reduced cadence.

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 16 2018 11:26pm
Previously I only had Auto PAS and had Start Thrsh at 10 and PAS Watts at 650. The effect was that there would be a lag taking off then full boost which was a bit abrupt, it would pull hard up hills and power along to my max speed on the flat.
I sounds rather like you are trying to use rpm scaling to soften your getaway which it really wasn't primarily designed to do. By reducing the start assist so dramatically, you have smoothed the getaway, but in conjunction with your scaling, the CA simply cannot develop the same power as your previous configuration.

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 16 2018 11:26pm
What I want it to do is to start at 200w with no lag for a nice low speed initial takeoff and then ramp up smoothly all the way to my Max Power setting, I can't figure out how to do it.
Stepping back a moment and looking at your hex file, you seem to have the AUX POT set up to control speed, not PAS Assist. This is generally only done if you want to set the speed and just allow the PAS Assist to be what it may to achieve that. Although this scheme works well, it is not a conventional PAS setup and so things like rpm scaling serve little purpose and only complicate things. Similarly, getting the Power PID controller involved to limit your max watts under PAS isn't really necessary. Having both the Power and Speed PID controllers in play will make tuning more difficult. At least to start I would just set the MaxPower to a large value, say 1000W to get it out of the PAS picture - you can bring this back into the mix later if you need that limit for some other reason.

There are two ways to go after the getaway power the first is recommended, but use the second if you feel you need to control the actual wattage of the starting power:
  • Set your Start power to 650W as the most power you want to expend from PAS. Set the RPM Scaling to 0. Control your getaway using the PasRate setting - try something like 0.5 volt/sec which will make PAS WOT power application take (4.00V-1.00V)/(0.5V/sec) = 6 seconds - that should be pretty mushy.
  • Set your Start power to 200W and the RPM Scaling to at least (650W-200W)/(80rpm-50rpm) = 15W/rpm. This will give you 200W up to 50rpm then ramp to 650W at your 80rpm cadence. If you don't want to downshift on hills, make this value bigger - maybe 25.
    Control your getaway using the PasRate setting - try something like 1.0V volt/sec.
With the first configuration the PA will try to go to full power (650W) all the time. The second will go to 650W at 80rpm but will go higher if your cadence goes up. In both cases the speed is limited by the pot so these setups do not behave like normal PAS systems. It's more like pedal-activated cruise control.

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 17 2018 7:16am
I made the adjustment mentioned in my post above. It seemed to be surging and not delivering constant power, even though the readout said ~550w and now and then would go to a bit over 600, sporadically though, sometimes up hills was still staying on ~550w but felt like much less.
The surging is arising from the speed limiting from the AUXPot. You can see this on the Diagnostics screen as the 'S' Limit Flag comes and goes with the surging. You need to tune your speed PID. There is a section in the Guide on this. Properly tuned for your bike, the speed will track the pot setting with minimum overshoot and no surging. That said, if you don't want to take the time, you can switch AUXPOT to control ThrO instead of speed. This works okay for the flat but will require adjustment when you encounter hills.

If this speed-based setup is not what you intended then I'm confused by the pot controlling speed. For a normal PAS setup you would just set the Start Assist to 650W, the RPM scaling to 0 (this is then just like the old AutoPAS), and configure AUXPot to control PAS. Set the getaway aggressiveness with PASRate. Done.

I encourage you to read the Help File or the ToolTips for the settings.
Last edited by teklektik on Sep 17 2018 10:59am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 17 2018 9:24am

Dumsterdave wrote:
Sep 17 2018 7:03am
Is it possible to enable regen without an ebrake or button? Like maybe just rolling off the throttle?
No.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by madnut » Sep 17 2018 10:35pm

Noticed a strange issue in software ver 1.54
If I change the calibration from low to high Pas stops working, it doesn't apply power but i can see the peddling symbols moving up. (This is a basic two wire 12 pole PAS). This happens even if I reset from scratch and calibration is the first thing i change. It behaves this way on 3.11 - 3.12 I haven't tried lower firmware since i like the new features.

Workaround: Finally I found that editing calibration on the CA itself works fine and afterwords everything else can be modified by software, and PAS works even after the change

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 18 2018 9:59am

madnut wrote:
Sep 17 2018 10:35pm
Noticed a strange issue in software ver 1.54
If I change the calibration from low to high...
Odd.
No time to drill into this just now, but I wrote a ticket to get this investigated.

Thanks for the heads-up. Much appreciated! :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Scotty T » Sep 18 2018 6:55pm

teklektik wrote:
Sep 17 2018 9:22am
A whole lot of very well explained stuff about how it all works :)
Thanks, I have a deeper understanding now.

On the Strt Level and PAS rate, yes I was trying to use to to smooth takeoff/acceleration, incorrectly.

On the pot, I was trying to have a limit so I could be "legal" or just to cruise around at slower speeds or with people on slower e-bikes. Here I've misunderstood the relationship between power limits and PAS limits and attempted to use both, with your explanation I can achieve the same speed limiting by limiting the PAS power.
teklektik wrote:
Sep 17 2018 9:22am
If this speed-based setup is not what you intended then I'm confused by the pot controlling speed. For a normal PAS setup you would just set the Start Assist to 650W, the RPM scaling to 0 (this is then just like the old AutoPAS), and configure AUXPot to control PAS. Set the getaway aggressiveness with PASRate. Done.

I encourage you to read the Help File or the ToolTips for the settings.
Yep, and in another previous mistake I was using the RPM threshold to delay the power cutting in rather than PASRate to smooth it. I definitely read what those settings do but didn't understand properly the relationships between them.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 19 2018 9:47am

Scotty T wrote:
Sep 18 2018 6:55pm
I definitely read what those settings do but didn't understand properly the relationships between them.
Yep - that's not an uncommon situation. It's been mentioned before that an outline of some common configurations or Use Cases might be useful so that settings could be seen in play to address typical applications. But, a work in progress.... :D

Anyhow, I think you can easily address your legal vs WooHoo! operating modes with a couple of different presets that can be Hot Swapped with a couple of console button pushes. If you start off with the simple no-rpm-scaling mode outlined above, you should be able to recreate your old setup and then you can see if the rpm feature will be useful. Maybe not. In any case, I'm pretty sure you will find the pot-adjustable PAS level will materially improve the experience letting you tweak PAS appropriately for different terrains.
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