Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Beta16 Firmware

Post by justin_le » Jul 11 2012 2:42pm

teklektik wrote: Now that we have these handy limit flags to call attention to internal state, I notice that even with the temp feature disabled, temp limiting is active if Temp->MaxTemp is incorrectly configured less than Temp->ThrshTemp (e.g. limiting is in effect with: 'disabled', apparent temp = 0.0 degrees with no attached sensor, MaxTemp=899 , and ThrshTemp=999 ).
Ha, indeed I haven't gone through and done proper boundary case checking, so if you set the threshold temperature higher than the max temp, or if you set the min throttle higher than the max throttle, or anything like that, the behavior at the moment will be pretty ill-defined. I'll make a note to address this in next firmware so that it will constrain input values that are outside of sensible range. So MaxTemp will always be forced higher than ThrshTemp when you try to change it, and then the above scenario could never manifest.
FWIW I vote for leading zeros. Since there is no shorthand available to skip entering them (e.g. enter '10' instead of '0010'), I find the blank space unhelpful for data entry. Mentally measuring the space to get the needed alignment seems less intuitive than simply using the leading zeros as visible place holders.
Thanks. I think if the leading zeros didn't have the diagonal cross through them they would be more palatable. Perhaps the best option might be to hide leading zeros when you are scrolling through the display to look at the values, but then have them appear the moment you hold the button to edit any of them?

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Beta16 Firmware

Post by teklektik » Jul 11 2012 3:15pm

justin_le wrote:I'll make a note to address this in next firmware so that it will constrain input values that are outside of sensible range. So MaxTemp will always be forced higher than ThrshTemp when you try to change it, and then the above scenario could never manifest.
excellent!
justin_le wrote: Perhaps the best option might be to hide leading zeros when you are scrolling through the display to look at the values, but then have them appear the moment you hold the button to edit any of them?
That would give the best aspects of both approaches...
+1!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillzofvalp » Jul 11 2012 5:48pm

I'm noticing more nd more relevance in having the aux input voltage constrained and/or modified to prevent bike from launching when throttle wire breaks. If you have implemented this Already, I'm that much more motivated to buy another CA, especially as I take the power up to 8kW.

Please revert any vAlue other than the range from minimum throttle input to max to the aux threshold value known to the controller as 0 throttle (ca corrected throttle output). I may have missed if you recognized he issue. All it takes is a flying tree branch or uninformed user doing sketchy soldering to send him flying into someone's bumper

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CA V3 Controller Compatibility

Post by justin_le » Jul 12 2012 8:17am

This will be a long post with some background to clarify how to connect the V3 CA devices to a controller via 6-pin direct plug. When the idea of using the original DrainBrain was being upgraded to not just monitor but also regulate a motor controller, we were using the analog Crystalyte controllers and those had an 'ebrake' input that was literally just a diode link to the throttle signal, so that when the brake levers were squeezed then the throttle signal got pulled to ground via D3, while the 5K resistor R29 limited the current pulled from the throttle in this scenario:
Clyte Throttle Schematic.jpg
Clyte Throttle Schematic.jpg (33.27 KiB) Viewed 6930 times
That made it very convenient to simply tell Crystalyte to connect the CA's throttle over-ride pin to the existing ebrake pad, and then the CA would have not just on/off but even linear regulating capabilities to the controller. And since the diode was already internal to the circuitboard, we could rely on that to prevent the CA from driving the controller directly, only allowing it to pull down or limit the existing throttle.
Clyte controller with 6-pin connector.jpg
Clyte controller with 6-pin connector.jpg (45.17 KiB) Viewed 6930 times
However, as the controllers evolved to digital designs, the ebrake input became a separate digital port to the onboard micro, and naively connecting the CA-DP plug to this would reduce the CA's limiting ability to jerky on/off control. So then we had to clarify with Crystalyte that the Throttle over-ride pin still needed to be attached via a diode to the throttle line, and since that diode wasn't already on board, a bit more 'hacking' was required. In most cases, the controllers had various other circuitry and pads wired to the throttle line, and replacing a resistor here with a diode allowed for the same functionality:
Ebrake Connector Details.jpg
Ebrake Connector Details.jpg (37.17 KiB) Viewed 6930 times
Ebrake Connector Modification for Crystalye Controller.jpg
Ebrake Connector Modification for Crystalye Controller.jpg (59.89 KiB) Viewed 6930 times
Thus, the "Direct Plug-in" controller standard always had this diode requirement, which in some cases was a bit complicated. With controllers that didn't have a convenient schematic hack, the diode was often wired inline with the wires and this was a source of some failure when the solder joint was weak
Green Wire through Diode.jpg
Green Wire through Diode.jpg (25.82 KiB) Viewed 6930 times
Since 2011 we decided to make the situation a bit easier by including the diode onboard the Cycle Analyst itself. So on any CA PCB Rev11 or later, you will notice that the green wire of the CA-DP is soldered to a pad labelled ThO, while the original Th pad (pre-diode) has moved up to the top. This way there is no longer a need for a diode inside the motor controller, though if there is a 2nd diode that's no problem either. However, if someone wants to use the CA as say a current throttle and not just as a limiting device, then they would need to ignore the ThO pad and wire their system up to Th.
Throttle Diode Details.jpg
Throttle Diode Details.jpg (46.56 KiB) Viewed 6930 times
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
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CA V3 Controller Compatibility (Cont.)

Post by justin_le » Jul 12 2012 9:04am

With the V3 CA devices, the functionality of the CA now includes not just throttle limiting, but actually driving the controller's throttle signal directly, and this is NOT possible if there is a diode inline with the throttle signal. So, if you have a CA-DP compatible controller and want to use the CA-V3 device as your new throttle, you will need to do a bit of modification. Here are 3 approaches:

#1) Swap pins around so that the green wire from the CA-DP goes into the controller's regular throttle input. You can either do this at the CA-DP plug end as shown below, or you could do it on the controller end:
Plug Rewiring.jpg
Plug Rewiring.jpg (43.37 KiB) Viewed 6923 times
#2) Insert a short between 5V and your throttle signal. This way the throttle signal is being pulled high by the short circuit, and so the CA only needs to pull the signal down from there which it can do via the diode. This method is easiest for sure, however, it is crucial that you only do it if your controller has a proper over-throttle voltage fault. Otherwise, if you unplug the CA then the controller will take off full tilt as the throttle input is at 5V. You want to be sure that the controller treats this situation as a fault and shuts down.
Throttle Short.jpg
Throttle Short.jpg (16.53 KiB) Viewed 6923 times
#3) Open up the controller and replace the diode with a ~500-1000 ohm resistor. Depending on where your controller is from, the diode may be a surface mount device on the PCB or a clearly obvious inline diode to the green CA wiring. While you could in principle completely short out or bypass the diode, this isn't recommended as then the CA will usually be directly connected to the microchip which can be an issue if your ground connection fails. A 500 to 1000 ohm resistor will provide some protection.

For all controllers going forward, we are working on a formal spec document for a CA V3 compatible plug standard, which is similar to the #3 modification above. Basically, both the CA plug and the Throttle are connected to the controller's throttle input, but via resistors so that the CA has a closer connection to the signal going to the microcontroller. For instance, with our current 12 mosfet infineon boards the original CA wiring used to be as follows:
Original CA-DP Plug.jpg
Original CA-DP Plug.jpg (31.41 KiB) Viewed 6923 times
We have now spec'd it like this, where the regular throttle signal needs to go through a 10K resistor to reach the microchip, while the CA's throttle signal only has 1K in it's path.
New CA-DP Plug.jpg
New CA-DP Plug.jpg (23.83 KiB) Viewed 6923 times
So the resulting pinout is simply
CA V3 Wiring.jpg
CA V3 Wiring.jpg (34.18 KiB) Viewed 6923 times
This scheme has the following benefits:
  • Controller still works with no CA attached, just plug a throttle and away you go
  • Controller is compatible with a throttle + V2 CA for limiting, provided that it is a CA2 with Rev11 or later PCB.
  • Controller is plug-in compatible with a V3 CA device acting as the throttle.
The only drawback is that if someone attaches a pre-2011 Cycle Analyst device that doesn't have the diode built in (Rev10 PCB or earlier), then it could potentially cause the ebike to take off when the CA is plugged in.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hillzofvalp » Jul 12 2012 9:20am

Thanks for the timely response and advice. I will look into it further during the next rebuild.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bartimaeus » Jul 13 2012 1:50pm

Will the v3 still have the 5mA limit for powering external circuits via the 5v pin? Trying to run Sparkfun's OpenLog from the CA, and it just barely works at the 1Hz data rate. Every time it goes to write the screen flickers, and since the peak current draw is listed as 6mA for the OpenLog I was going to look into re-programming it so the indicator LEDs wouldn't flash when writing to the microSD or as a last resort breaking/desoldering the LEDs. But if the new one has more leeway it won't be an issue anymore.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Jul 14 2012 3:53am

Bartimaeus wrote:Will the v3 still have the 5mA limit for powering external circuits via the 5v pin?
Yes, the basic regulator topology is the same.
Trying to run Sparkfun's OpenLog from the CA, and it just barely works at the 1Hz data rate. Every time it goes to write the screen flickers, and since the peak current draw is listed as 6mA for the OpenLog I was going to look into re-programming it so the indicator LEDs wouldn't flash when writing to the microSD or as a last resort breaking/desoldering the LEDs. But if the new one has more leeway it won't be an issue anymore.
If it is indeed just 6mA even during the flash writes to the card then you should be fine. The 'flicker' that you see is just the result of changing current through the backlight resistor which happens when the current draw on the 5V line is changing, it's not a sign that the CA is suffering. You can eliminate the changing backlight brightness by tapping off power from the 10V rather than the 5V bus, which you can access from the 2nd pin of the LCD header under the "+" from "-LED+". Only downside is that the CA might not save data completely when you power it down, but if you have the logger attached then that shouldn't be much of an issue.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by jonescg » Jul 14 2012 4:34am

Hey Justin!

Just double checking, 650 V is the absolute maximum voltage detectable through the CA, even with a voltage divider?

Damn. I'm going to be running 700 V top of charge on the race bike. I guess I could scale it by a factor of 10, but that would also mean the Wh used will be out of whack too... Hmm :? Any chance of an increase in the range of Vsense?

Cheers,
Chris

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bartimaeus » Jul 14 2012 11:16am

Thanks Justin! That helps a ton!

Farfle just suggested using a capacitor as a buffer to eliminate the flickering, and the OpenLog is small enough that it won't be too difficult to fit it inside the CA case with a small cutout to access the card. Will post pics when it's done :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview -- lithium chemistries

Post by overbyte » Jul 14 2012 7:04pm

I notice that your list of chemistry selections doesn't include Li-NMC batteries (also known as NCM), which are new. They have higher energy density than LiFePO4, a little less cycle lifespan, but good safety. They are lighter weight for the same energy capacity. The all-electric car industry is moving to NCM for the next generation of electric (not hybrid) cars because they can increase the range in the same volume or weight compared with current technology.

Will V.3 include a selection for NMC?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview -- lithium chemistries

Post by justin_le » Jul 14 2012 8:48pm

overbyte wrote: Will V.3 include a selection for NMC?
If there is a new battery chemistry that is both materially different in discharge curve to one of the existing lithium chemistries and is also readily available for ebike / EV enthusiasts, then for sure we'd do a characterization and eventually include it as a new option in one of the firmware updates. If someone can post here or send a link to an actual discharge curve of a Li-NMC pack of known internal resistance then I'd be able to at least point out which of the other chemistries is the closest match.

The reality is that even among the same nominal chemistry, every manufacturer's cells have a slightly different look to their discharge curve, so just selecting the chemistry isn't an exact thing. But so long as the look up table is within ~10% the battery fuel gauge indicator behaves perfectly fine and you'd never notice the difference between that at 1%.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Jul 14 2012 9:29pm

At least for the EIG cells, there is a spec that should help:
http://www.eigbattery.com/eng/product/C020.pdf
I think it has all the info you need for their versino of NMC.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Alan B » Jul 14 2012 9:48pm

I didn't overlay the curves, but it looks pretty similar to common Cobalt Oxide Lipo.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by overbyte » Jul 14 2012 11:49pm

Here's another NCM battery curve: https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www ... agTivzIKaA. See Fig 4 on page 10.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Architectonic » Jul 15 2012 1:03am

Before I place my order for the beta v3, will the USB-TTL cable for Infineon controllers with the 6 pin connector (from Cellman) work for reflashing or do I have to buy another cable as well?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Alan B » Jul 15 2012 8:21am

Architectonic wrote:Before I place my order for the beta v3, will the USB-TTL cable for Infineon controllers with the 6 pin connector (from Cellman) work for reflashing or do I have to buy another cable as well?
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 85#p564885

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Jul 15 2012 9:48pm

Hi Justin;

I installed the new software. There seems to be an issue with the current readings being twice as high as expected. I use a 5.0 mohm shunt and only by setting the value to 9+ do I get close to the proper value. Rshunt is set correctly..

If your taking votes mines for putting the leading zeros back in. Too confusing and it seemed like you could have a blank spot if you dont set a number something like 12_45 etc. maybe left justified or something but for now confusing to know what column your in and how many places there are. I also like having a zero in front of the decimal.

I also noticed that in the real time screen the lowercase a becomes upper case, momentarily when you release the throttle while in current mode. Sort of seems logical. I have all limiting disabled currently.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Ratking » Jul 16 2012 2:56pm

Hello Justin

Just want to tell you that this is a piece of art. I just let my little brother( 12 years old) try my bike with two turnigy 80-100 motors. Within a few seconds the bike was limited to 50A and the bike was easy to handle. I love the way it works, and all of its options. Thank you for making this gadget for us. The bike would be uncontrollable without it.

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Re: Beta16 Firmware

Post by teklektik » Jul 16 2012 10:40pm

teklektik wrote:Although space had to be released to implement this cool screen, I do miss the displaced Vaux display (which admittedly does not have a huge audience). I much prefer the new version with limit flags but if you can find a way to squeeze in Vaux somewhere in the future, it would be good :)
Justin-
I would like to suggest that the real time Vaux display be resurrected as part of the Setup section title as "Setup Cntrl Mode < 0.00V >" in a manner similar to the "Setup Throt In < 0.00V >" section title. This would retain the most of the utility of this less frequently used display without intruding on the real estate of the primary non-Setup screens. Since the bike (throttle) is inoperative in Setup mode, the display would be usable only for adjusting or verifying control voltages with a standing bike - but that would fulfill the primary need, making it a very minor downside. :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » Jul 17 2012 10:49am

Justin, sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you regarding build 16.

The speedo issue at poweron would appear from casual inspection to be solved, although I still have a very high value being stored in MaxS (390 at the moment.) I also noticed with some curiosity that after the reflash, Mi was the default unit in Speedo Setup rather than Km as it has been before.

A new issue has arisen which I'm at a loss to solve. When I run the throttle up to full and allow it to hit the current limit (set at 25A) I am experiencing a very prominent surging, accompanied by the displayed current oscillating wildly back and forth across the limit point.

I've heard of others having to trim the various gains to reduce this sort of behavior. I have never had to do this before, as the system has always been stable, and thus I have always left my gains at the default setting. As a result, I don't have a good grasp of how these variables work or how to optimize them. I tried turning Again down to 50 (from 150) and it didn't seem to make any difference.

When I am operating in Current Throttle mode (my normal mode of operation), this phenomenon occurs only when I have the throttle at maximum. If I operate at mid-throttle, the system is stable. I tried switching to Pass-Through Throttle mode, and this made the problem worse. At very low speeds, even moderate throttle settings drive the system to maximum current (this is typical behavior for this bike) and the same oscillation occurs.

None of the Limit Flags are set when this occurs, at least in Current Throttle mode (I didn't observe the Limit Flags when in Pass-Through mode.) I do see the A limit flicker when I am operating in Current Throttle at part-throttle and a point below the 25A limit, however I assume this to be normal as the system appears to be stable at that point.



I'll add that I do not seem to be experiencing the problem which lizardboy noted concerning incorrect current display. With Rshunt set at 1.00 (the correct value for my controller), my displayed realtime current readings seem correct, and at the end of my morning commute, my total Ah and computed Wh/mile values also match expected values based on past experience.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » Jul 17 2012 8:09pm

Justin, I have some further data which may explain the problem I'm having, and also seems curiously related to what lizardboy has described regarding his current readings being doubled.

Normally, when I do a Zero Calibration, I see something like the following:

Image

That screenshot was taken on the 15b code. I don't know exactly what the two different numbers signify, but they're always close to one another, and somewhere in the general vicinity of 2.5 - 2.4V.


Now, I just did a Zero Cal in the 16 code, and I see the following:

Image

What's up with that?

I'll bet you €1 that our problem lies in this neighborhood.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Carzy » Jul 21 2012 5:18pm

Just a note guys - Justin is on vacation right now so for the next week or two replies may be a little slower than usual.

We've also received our full order of Thun sensors now so for those looking to get up and running with one you can purchase through the CA3 page: http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_CAV3.php
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Jul 21 2012 9:41pm

Joe Perez wrote:Normally, when I do a Zero Calibration, I see something like the following: ...
I don't know exactly what the two different numbers signify, but they're always close to one another, and somewhere in the general vicinity of 2.5 - 2.4V.
Since Justin is away - I will hazard a guess that these are scaled shunt voltages. The one on the left should be the working 'Zero Amps' offset voltage (stored in eeprom) and the one on the right is the present 'live' shunt voltage. When you press 'Zero Amps', the stored value on the left is updated with the value on the right, setting the working offset to make the present shunt voltage equivalent to 0.00 Amps. This is the same mechanism used to normalize Trq -> Trq Offset.
Setup Trq Sensor ........ Live Data = < 4.46V >
  • Trq -> Trq Offset {2.49V 4.46}
    (Press/Hold to update eeprom offset voltage on left with current voltage on right - similar to Zero Amps)
However, it appears that only 1/2 the present 'live' shunt voltage was stored as the working offset voltage.

EDIT - Well - not the best guess :wink: - proper answer by Justin here.

Justin-
It seems a bit inconsistent that these voltages are only displayed after doing a Zero Amps (at least I assume that's when they pop up - I've never actually done one since my CA reads zero properly without coersion). I would expect them to be always be displayed as they are with Trq->TrqOffset .
Last edited by teklektik on Aug 11 2012 7:24am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Jul 22 2012 12:38pm

This latest release adds some useful features. Thanks for improving the product over the years.

The cruise control on the Infineon controllers is a constant-voltage cruise control. This works fine when I'm riding alone, but when I'm riding with others it tries to maintain constant speed regardless of grade, applying more power as the grade gets steeper, and less power as the grade lessens. This creates a situation where I pull ahead on steeper up-grades and fall behind as the grade lessens (unless I increase the throttle setting).

It would be easier to ride with un-assisted riders if the cruise control could fix the power level of assist rather than attempt to fix the speed (by fixing the effective voltage).

I believe that the current-based throttle offered through the CycleAnalyst (CA) is a solution since for a given throttle setting it would maintain constant current (power) regardless of grade. This behavior emulates the human engine that is power limited. But if I ran my throttle through the CA I would still be using the controller's constant-voltage cruise control.

Is there any plan to offer a constant-current cruise control capability when running a current throttle through the CA, one that allows the operator to "dial in" a fixed power level of assist?
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