Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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RC throttle problem... FIXED

Post by MattyCiii » Jul 31 2012 5:54am

MattyCiii wrote:Quick question for those who use the V3 with RC motors:
Is the amperage of my throttle output perhaps too low?

Last night I bench tested the setup with bare minimum: CA, throttle, HV-160, motor and one battery (6s1p, 5.8 AH). Worked perfectly.
Today I went to ride and it doesn't work. Everything lights up and I get the "turn on" beep from the HV-160 (but not the "throttle is connected" tweet noise). I rotate the throttle and see the CA is recognizing the input. Visual inspection of the connections - everything looks fine.

The only differences between the successful test last night and today are:
1) The bile was upside-down last night, right side up today :D
2) The battery. Today I'm using 8s1p, 5.0 AH. Could it be the lower AH rating (I think these batts have lower C rating too) that is causing my loss of function?

By the way, I'm getting +5v for the throttle from the throttle input pad in the CA, as shown in this picture. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 70#p573801
:oops:
It was a marginal crimp that worked on the bench but not on the bike.
Last edited by MattyCiii on Aug 02 2012 9:37pm, edited 1 time in total.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Jul 31 2012 6:04am

Hi there,

I don't run an ebike with an RC motor, but maybe I can ask the right questions:
  • An 8S1P 5ah lipo should still be able to deliver 25C aka 125A. So that should not be the problem with your ESC.
  • The ESC seems not to receive a throttle input. Can you measure a positive throttle signal at the ESC, after it got transmitted from the CAv3?
  • Did you program the ESC for a specific lipo input? I don't have experience with Castle ESCs, but most ESCs need to be programmed for the specific voltage input that you give. 8S may be too high for the specific settings.
Henk


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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 02 2012 7:15am

Thanks lizardboy I got it working, I had it wired correctly, It was the boot sequence that was the issue. Blank screen on the CA, is when the boot loader is active.

Cruzxia

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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Aug 04 2012 9:22pm

Way late in the game but...
I have a BionX Press Switch for Magura brakes. It's very close to the threshold for e-brake activation sensitivity for the CA. I actually have to wiggle the brake lever around a bit when I boot up the CA in order for the CA to consider the brake "open". Once in a while when I ride, I hit a bump and the CA thinks I've hit the brake.

I suppose I could wire a resistor in series to the connector and drop the sensitivity (though I'm probably way off on that. And I'd be hard press to guess a value, and whether to go series or parallel, etc.)

What would be great is if this could be parameterized, and set - just like the throttle. So, you would go into a setup menu and see what the CA senses in both the "brake at rest" and "brake activated", and you would set the point in the brake pull where the CA cuts the throttle.

Would such a thing be possible? I hope such a feature would apply to all types of throttle, not just the niche product I decided to buy...
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 05 2012 8:32am

MattyCiii wrote:Way late in the game but...
I have a BionX Press Switch for Magura brakes. It's very close to the threshold for e-brake activation sensitivity for the CA. I actually have to wiggle the brake lever around a bit when I boot up the CA in order for the CA to consider the brake "open". Once in a while when I ride, I hit a bump and the CA thinks I've hit the brake.

I suppose I could wire a resistor in series to the connector and drop the sensitivity (though I'm probably way off on that. And I'd be hard press to guess a value, and whether to go series or parallel, etc.)
From this thread about the Magura Brake Pressure Switch, this unit appears to provide a simple switch closure - which makes sense. It does not seem that CA parameterization is the answer.

The switch you are discussing uses a conventional barrel connector offering only two connections like the one in the thread - looks like the same unit...
BionixSwitch.jpg
BionixSwitch.jpg (9.94 KiB) Viewed 4095 times
Is this a new installation, or did it work previously when connected to your controller? If so, what controller do you have?
Try connecting a meter on the leads to determine what is happening there electrically.
Last edited by teklektik on Aug 06 2012 8:02am, edited 1 time in total.
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MattyCiii   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Aug 05 2012 10:48am

Thanks for the reply.

When I first installed my V3 CA it worked perfectly. But my CA installation has been on-again, off-again, as I tried changes to wire routing, etc., and now it's behaving as I said above. Originally I cut off the barrel connector and soldered on JSTs, to make the brake switch mate with the stock V3 CA. Since I've found other problems with my CA, I just now did some tests with a continuity tester.

What I've found is if I adjust the brake handle throw/wear adjust knob to full open, the brake switch operates as expected. So, this is definitely just a case of an over sensitive switch. :(
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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I want "torque + pas ctrl" mode

Post by naix » Aug 06 2012 10:03am

hi justin.

I am testing your product CA V3 now . it's fun :D

By the way. I want "torque + pas ctrl "mode too.
ex)
when starting , use torque sensor mainly,
when cruising , use pas sensor mainly.

<<I want to start safety with a high response pedaling like a japanese ebike>>
In the composition of only PAS, the motor drive with a high response without delay is very dangerous.
because It malfunctions by Pedal position adjusting.
But in Pas+Torque sensor with speed mapping , I think that we can ride safety.

The torque sensor can realize a high response for starting dash without rotating pedal.
(of course, need torque threshold setting and reduce power with speed mapping)

The Pas sensor can't realize a high response. because it need delay or need to rotate pedal when starting.
But the Pas sensor can realize easy riding when cruising.

so , it use torque sensor mainly when starting and use pas sensor mainly when cruising.
It's good solution ,Don't you think?

naix

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Aug 10 2012 7:19am

Hi Justin, I have just installed the CAv3, and think it's a great piece of equipment.

The perfect position and angle for mine mean the screen and button are upside down. How hard would it be to program an 'upside down' mode?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Aug 10 2012 2:22pm

IIRC there should be enough wire length and whatnot for everything except maybe the button connector to install the CA/display PCBs upside down, then just make a little jumper cable to the buttons. In the jumper, just swap the two button wires and now they are reversed, too.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 10 2012 4:11pm

Joe Perez wrote:Justin, I have some further data which may explain the problem I'm having, and also seems curiously related to what lizardboy has described regarding his current readings being doubled.
Now, I just did a Zero Cal in the 16 code, and I see the following:

Image

What's up with that?
Hey Joe, that is very observant and indicates that somethings has gone funky at the hardware level. When there is no current through the shunt, then both amplifier circuits inside the CA should be outputting 2.5V which is what gets displayed on the screen. If you are seeing a value of 1.18V when you hit "zero amps" then either one of the op-amps is damaged, there is a bad connection in one of the sense leads to the shunt (white or blue wires), or you actually had a substantial amount of current flowing when you hit the zero amps routine. Is there a chance you can try reflashing with the B15 firmware and confirm that with that as well, you also get 1.18 and 2.4V?
lizardboy wrote: I have similar voltage offsets with 1.18 and 2.43
OK very interesting, this is almost for sure the source of all your issues too. The first reading (1.18V) is from the low x10 gain amplifier, while the 2nd voltage (2.43V) is from the high x100 gain amp. Normally if the 10x amp is at 1.18V, then the 100x amps should be saturated at 0V. While if the 100x amp is at 2.43V, we'd expect the 10x amp to be at 2.493V We'll probably need to have you ship these back for us to look at and try to figure out what caused this. It might be related to the beta PCB's having exposed via's and hence being more likely to have incidental shorts form on the board.

Is anyone else seeing something other than 2.48-2.50V after doing a current zero?

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 10 2012 4:15pm

Degull wrote:Not sure if this has been discussed but I was wondering if it would possible to control the ebrakes with CA V3 but using a legacy throttle. I have my throttle wired directly to controller at the moment and I was wondering if it is possible to wire the ebrakes into the CA V3 instead of the controller. This would save some wires going to controller and a cleaner install. I'm not sure if the CA V3 can handle this since I have the throttle features disabled. I tested my legacy throttle and the ebrakes by hooking up an ebrake lever to the CA V3 and it did cut power to the motor. Is there something I could do other than wiring both the throttle and ebrakes directly to the CA V3?
Hi Degull, you can certainly have your throttle go directly to the controller and have the ebrake cutoff go just to the CA, and then use the CA's throttle over-ride line either to activate the ebrake input of your controller or pull the throttle signal of your controller down. No issues there, and no need for the CA to have a throttle attached in order to take advantage of the new ebrake input.

Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 10 2012 4:21pm

mrbill wrote: Is there any plan to offer a constant-current cruise control capability when running a current throttle through the CA, one that allows the operator to "dial in" a fixed power level of assist?
I haven't played with cruise control yet but on the agenda is to do the same style of "auto-cruise" that exists on some motor controllers. So if you hold the throttle steady for a fixed amount of time, then you can release the throttle and the CA would preserve that input until you either engaged the ebrakes or touched the throttle again. In that way if you had the CA setup as speed throttle, you would have proper cruise control, if you had it setup as a pass-thru throttle, you would have voltage cruise control, and if you had it setup as a current throttle you would have a power cruise control.

Is that more or less what you are asking?

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Ebrake and Regen

Post by justin_le » Aug 10 2012 4:41pm

teklektik wrote: It seems that when the ebrake is attached to the CA and is applied, To (Throttle Out) is forced to ThrO->MinOutput.
It was originally like that, but in the more recent firmwares I've changed it so that when the ebrakes are pressed, the throttle output goes all the way down to 0V rather than just to MinOutput. That way, in principle you can tell from the controller end if the user has simply released the throttle / exceeded a limit (Throttle Out = MinOutput), or if they've engaged the ebrakes (Throttle Out = 0V).
As a possible downside, if your controller is programmed/jumpered for regen when ebraking, that functionality will be lost if the ebrake is fed to the CA.
Correct, but with the update above you could wire up a comparator circuit that compares the throttle line with about a 0.5V threshold, and send the output of that to the ebrake line. Then whenever the throttle signal drops below 0.5V, it will engage the regen. We haven't tested this out yet on a bike yet but in principle it should work OK.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Aug 10 2012 4:43pm

justin_le wrote:
mrbill wrote: Is there any plan to offer a constant-current cruise control capability when running a current throttle through the CA, one that allows the operator to "dial in" a fixed power level of assist?
I haven't played with cruise control yet but on the agenda is to do the same style of "auto-cruise" that exists on some motor controllers. So if you hold the throttle steady for a fixed amount of time, then you can release the throttle and the CA would preserve that input until you either engaged the ebrakes or touched the throttle again. In that way if you had the CA setup as speed throttle, you would have proper cruise control, if you had it setup as a pass-thru throttle, you would have voltage cruise control, and if you had it setup as a current throttle you would have a power cruise control.

Is that more or less what you are asking?
-Justin
Yes. Excellent. Will you be adding this to the the CA V3, or is it on the agenda for some future version?

Other related features are:

1) A "Resume" capability. It would be nice to return to the same cruise setting after, say, tapping the brakes. Sort of like the "resume" feature on an automobile cruise control.
2) A way to incrementally adjust the current cruise setting up or down, again, as seen in automobiles. Lyen's version of Infineon controllers are available with a separate cruise control that functions much like those in an automobile, minus the "resume" capability.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/70 ... ntrol.jpg/

Unfortunately, the Infineon controller throttle and cruise control cannot be used in current mode, just voltage/speed mode.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 10 2012 4:47pm

shorza wrote:Hi Justin, I have just installed the CAv3, and think it's a great piece of equipment.

The perfect position and angle for mine mean the screen and button are upside down. How hard would it be to program an 'upside down' mode?
There is no way to flip the orientation of the character LCD screens in software, so you would have to remove the circuitboard and rotate it 180 degrees as Amberwolf suggested. Unfortunately though the LCD bezel is not symmetric so it doesn't fit very well in the enclosure this way.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 10 2012 5:11pm

justin_le wrote:
teklektik wrote:As a possible downside, if your controller is programmed/jumpered for regen when ebraking, that functionality will be lost if the ebrake is fed to the CA.
Correct, but with the update above you could wire up a comparator circuit that compares the throttle line with about a 0.5V threshold, and send the output of that to the ebrake line. Then whenever the throttle signal drops below 0.5V, it will engage the regen. We haven't tested this out yet on a bike yet but in principle it should work OK.
Just out of curiosity, what is the threshold voltage on the CA EBK line and the pull-up resistance?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 11 2012 3:03am

I am having a problem with the current sensing. It reads correctly up to 10A, and then jumps to about 80A as you slowly increase the throttle. When you get to max throttle it shows around 160A (AMAX)

I have A leyn infineon controller limited to 25A 66v with a 2000mohm shunt, Legacy throttle control

When I zero the amps I am getting 1.18v 2.47v

I am thinking that it is not switching from high to low readings correctly.

Please advise on how to fix this issue.



Firmware B16

Cruzxia

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Aug 11 2012 6:03am

justin_le wrote:
Joe Perez wrote:Justin, I have some further data which may explain the problem I'm having, and also seems curiously related to what lizardboy has described regarding his current readings being doubled.
Now, I just did a Zero Cal in the 16 code, and I see the following:

Image

What's up with that?
lizardboy wrote: I have similar voltage offsets with 1.18 and 2.43
Is anyone else seeing something other than 2.48-2.50V after doing a current zero?

-Justin
Hi Justin, I am also getting this since flashing v3B16, but I wasn't before. I am not sure what version I was on previously.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 11 2012 4:13pm

cruzxia wrote: When I zero the amps I am getting 1.18v 2.47v
OK wow, this is all starting to make sense. I have three V3 CA's locally programmed with the B16 firmware, and all show the 2.48-2.50 range when zeroing amps. However, if I download the .zip file from ES, uncompress it, and then flash the CA's with that, I get the same behavior of ~1.18V and all the associated problems. So somewhere this file became corrupted, and then everyone who reflashed it and then did the "zero amps" would have had this situation. I really should have double-checked the uploaded file, and am sorry for the wasted time that this caused everyone.

I've attached here the B17 firmware here, and am going to go delete the corrupted B16 code from the previous post. The only significant difference from the B16 is that the leading zero's in the setup menu are implemented in a way that they are hidden when showing the value, but all show up the moment you go to edit a number. Hopefully that does make it the best of both worlds.
Attachments
CA3B17_ES.zip
Cycle Analyst V3 Beta Firmware, B17
(39.8 KiB) Downloaded 76 times
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 11 2012 4:28pm

teklektik wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is the threshold voltage on the CA EBK line and the pull-up resistance?
It's a digital input to the PIC using the internal pull-ups. From the datasheet typical internal pull-up current is about 150uA, so equivalent to about 30K, but with a wide tolerance (15K-200K min to max). There is a 1K resistor in series between this and the actual pad for protection, and the threshold voltage seems to be about 1.5V to activate and 2.1V to release.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 11 2012 6:20pm

justin_le wrote:From the datasheet typical internal pull-up current is about 150uA, so equivalent to about 30K, but with a wide tolerance (15K-200K min to max). There is a 1K resistor in series between this and the actual pad for protection, and the threshold voltage seems to be about 1.5V to activate and 2.1V to release.
Good stuff. Thanks!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 12 2012 4:03am

Thanks the B17 FW fixed the current issue.

One other thing for the next update, can you add some hysteresis or a delay to the temperature display, the point X figure fluctuates like crazy.

thanks
cruzxia

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Aug 12 2012 6:11am

Hi Justin.

when do you expect the full production versions will be going "live" ?

i have my new trike now, and i am hanging to put a V3 on and the tq sensor.....

Image

it has since this photo. be fitted with the motor...

Image

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 13 2012 12:04am

Diamondback wrote:Hi Justin.
when do you expect the full production versions will be going "live" ?
The answer is that the first full production batch of V3 CA hardware is actually finished and is going through QC and testing, but as you can see there are still a glitches and improvements in the firmware that we've got to iron out before it will go out of beta. So the holdup at this point is on the firmware front. That will be ready when it is ready, it's a bit hard to predict.
i have my new trike now, and i am hanging to put a V3 on and the tq sensor.....
I am very keen to have more people beta testing the new CA with the Thun torque sensors and have been a bit disappointed by how few have been using this. This is by FAR the most fun aspect of the V3 CA's, so if you are OK needing to periodically update the firmware and running into possible glitches there then there is no reason not to get one now. We have all the parts listed in stock and listed here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_CAV3.php

The only thing to note is that you can only power the THUN sensors from the CA if you are running a 36V or at most a 48V pack. At any higher voltage than this, the CA's linear regulator will overheat, so you would have to run a separate 12V DC-DC converter in order to supply the 18mA current that the THUN device needs.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Aug 13 2012 12:18am

Thanks for the info.

I'm running 12S lipo (50.4v fresh off the charger)
Would that be ok ?

Jason.
Ignorance can be solved, stupid is forever

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