Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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kudos   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by kudos » Aug 14 2012 9:59am

Is there an ETA on this new v3 unit? I'm only looking for a ballpark figure, this year, next three months etc

I'm just building my second bike and I'm putting off getting a V2 unit now that this is on the way.

Cheers,
Kudos
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Build 2 Mountain Cycle Fury FS : Mac 8T 40A 57V : Scrapped
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 14 2012 10:05am

cruzxia wrote:My CA hangs sometimes...
Can you please report the firmware verion? Thanks!
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cruzxia   100 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 14 2012 4:26pm

FW B17

and the throttle is setup as legacy. I will be changing the throttle to the through the CA when the connectors arrive, I am hoping that will give more control.

I also noticed maxS the decimal point is in the wrong spot. It says 513. and should be 51.3
I don't remember doing 513 kph on my ebike :D


Cruzxia
Last edited by cruzxia on Aug 14 2012 5:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 14 2012 5:22pm

cruzxia wrote:FW B17
I will be changing the throttle to the through the CA when the connectors arrive, I am hoping that will give more control.
Thanks!
Yep - like night and day... :)
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cruzxia   100 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 14 2012 7:05pm

I have been testing the limited power on startup again.

None of the limiter indicators show that it is restricted, and it runs restricted at the min throttle setting of thrO. I increased that value and it speeds up.

After using the throttle a few times, suddenly it goes back to unrestricted full power, and is fine until you restart the CA

cruzxia

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Aug 14 2012 11:36pm

The problem I reported previously about voltage change after reset still exists. it seems to only use the calibrated value sometimes. After booting I get one value and after reset another.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 15 2012 3:29am

If you disable functions (like the torque sensor) in the setup menu, you should remove the display screen from the displayed items. This would simplify the use of the CA by not displaying screens with no readings.

Cruzxia

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 15 2012 8:25pm

Hey guys, so it looks like there are 3 pretty significant bugs that people have observed which haven't shown up in our in-house testing.

1) CA doesn't Boot: Right after applying power, the CA backlight turns on but nothing shows up on the screen. Cycling the power off and on a couple times will allow it to boot up normally.

2) Throttle Cutouts: At some point generally early in the trip, the throttle output drops down to MinThrottle even though the input throttle is present. After depressing the throttle lever a few times it will resume working again, and then stay in this "well behaved" state for the remainder of the trip

3) CA Freezes: In this case, the CA itself appears to hang, with nothing going on on the screen and the throttle output voltage possibly latched in a high state. Teklektic mentioned that after 20-30 seconds his unit started running normal again, while Cruzxia mentioned cycling power to clear the issue.

For those who have observed any of the above 3 situations, it would really helpful if you could tell me what your setup is as far as the battery voltage, controller type, and your CA3 throttle/control modes. Similarly, if there are people who haven't seen any of these issues at all that is very useful to know too. Item #3 is quite disconcerting since it can result in a failure situation that powers the bike uncontrollably, and I'd like to get to the bottom of this one ASAP.

I'm working on a debugging version of the firmware that should spew out a lot more info no the datastream to help pinpoint where these issues are originating from so hopefully those with logging devices will be able to capture what is taking place.

It would also be prudent for anyone beta testing on a powerful ebike to make sure they have some rider accessible on/off switch to power down the system should something go haywire in the CA.

-Justin
cruzxia wrote:My CA hangs sometimes, the screen just freezes. I then have to turn it off and on to clear the problem. It did it today when I was checking the no load current, suddenly the motor sped up and the CA had stopped working.

Another Issue that occurs, when I first set off on the bike sometimes it is restricted, to minimum throttle. If I turn the throttle on and off a few time suddenly it works normally. I was wondering if it is the throttle fault voltage.

any Ideas.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 15 2012 8:34pm

lizardboy wrote:The problem I reported previously about voltage change after reset still exists. it seems to only use the calibrated value sometimes. After booting I get one value and after reset another.
Is this where it can sometimes differ by about 0.2V or are you seeing more than this? The 0.2V difference has been puzzling and might be a silicon issue with the microchip which has a pretty large errata page. You'll notice sometimes it will toggle not just from a reset but even after going in and out of the setup menu. It's always using the calibrated V/V value in the CA, but the actual analog conversion is giving slightly different ADC values, by about 1.5 bits, and I haven't yet figured out why. The error is much less than the 1% target accuracy, but it still shouldn't jump discretely between two values.

-Justin
Last edited by justin_le on Aug 16 2012 2:15am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Architectonic » Aug 15 2012 11:00pm

I have observed #1 and #2. My CA was shipped out at the end of July (haven't checked firmware/boot loader yet).

16S LiFe, EB312 from Cell Man, I've wired a switch (it might actually be a 120/240v AC switch...) on the power switch wire as per:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/downlo ... p?id=87471

#2 was on legacy mode and it only tripped the fault mode 95% of the time, I ended up just disconnecting the throttle wire (and setting to disabled) from the DP plug since I'm not using the limiting at the moment and haven't had time to set the throttle up properly.

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cruzxia   100 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 16 2012 2:12am

Justin

My setup is as follows:
Battery's - 18s lipo 75-61 volt Low voltage cutout is at 61v on the controller and 61.5v on the CA
Controller - 6 fet Lyen/Infineion direct plug in CA , shunt 2.000mohm
Throttle - Legacy (I plan to change this once the hang is resolved)
Motor - BPM Code 12

Problem 1 I have not had occur

Problem 2
The throttle dose this on every startup. I cant pinpoint what corrects the issue, I just wind the throttle on and off several times and suddenly it goes. I was wandering if it was time related, but I don't think so.
note:You do not have to go full throttle, to clear this, I just tested 0-1/4 throttle and it cleared.

Problem 3
This occurred yesterday again, as I was nearly home so I did not stop. after about 20 seconds it started working again.
What I noticed though was that after the event, the human power input was jumping up and down on the left of the main screen, I dont use the torque input. I then flicked through the screens, and the RPM was rolling numbers.

I think that there is the possibility that with no inputs on the torque throttle in and aux connectors, that spikes may be induced to these inputs. If the function is not being used (disabled in settings) you should disable the inputs and tie the ports high or low, so that there is no chance of induced voltages causing issues.
Once this issue is resolved, you should enable the brownout and watchdog functions in the PIC if you haven't already done so.

There is also the possibility of glitches through the main input, I have not studded the CA PCB, If you need help with this issue, you can PM me and I can try to help you out. I have been programing PIC Micros and designing PCB's for the auto and other industries for over 20 years.

cruzxia
Last edited by cruzxia on Aug 16 2012 2:43am, edited 1 time in total.

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 16 2012 2:30am

cruzxia wrote: Problem 3
This occurred yesterday again, as I was nearly home so I did not stop. after about 20 seconds it started working again.
What I noticed though was that after the event, the human power input was jumping up and down on the left of the main screen, I dont use the torque input. I then flicked through the screens, and the RPM was rolling numbers.
cruzxia
Thanks, that's exactly what Teklektik observed as well when he had the same thing happen. If it's possible for you to ground the "RPM" input from the 5-pin connector and see if it still occurs or not that could go a long way towards cluing in on the origins. We definitely had issues in earlier board revisions where noise generated during regenerative braking would cause signals to show up on the RPM line for false pedal cadence readings, and had a cap added to solve that. But the pattern of it showing up here after a freeze seems unrelated.
Once this issue is resolved, you should enable the brownout and watchdog functions in the PIC if you haven't already done so.
Indeed another great point. The B17 firmware attempted to use the watchdog so these dangerous hang situations would cause a chip reset right away, but unfortunately the bootloader can't change the configuration words in the PIC to actually enable the watchdog function at the hardware level. So for the beta units on the field it won't be easy to get this protection unless flashed with an in circuit programmer.
There is also the possibility of glitches through the main input, I have not studded the CA PCB, If you need help with this issue, you can PM me and I can try to help you out. I have been programing PIC Micros and designing PCB's for the auto and other industries for over 20 years.
Thanks, we'll see what I can sort over the next couple days and may take you up on that! -Justin
Last edited by justin_le on Aug 16 2012 2:33am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: better english
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Diamondback   10 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Aug 16 2012 3:14am

Hi Justin

Can you please confirm if the CA can power the torque sensor if I am running 12s lipo ?
That's 50.4v hot off the charger.

I think I'll wait until the final versions of the CA are finished.
I don't really like the idea of having a glitchy unit until the final FW
Is released. Last thing I need is a WOT situation !

I have really liked the two previous CA incarnations I've owned.
Looking forward to getting my hands on V3 !

I think I'll need to swap out my controller when I get the V3 and tq
Sensor though. My controller seems to have a delay in ramping up.
I'm sure this would not play nice with the way I intend to run it.

Thanks again for all the work you and the team have put into
Making this awesome device.

Jason.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 16 2012 3:24am

Diamondback wrote:Hi Justin

Can you please confirm if the CA can power the torque sensor if I am running 12s lipo ?
That's 50.4v hot off the charger.
We've been running them off 13S LiMn without issue yet, which is about 54V off the charger, but the climate isn't as hot here as other parts of the world. It's better if you don't also have a hall throttle attached at the same time (which draws another 5mA).
I think I'll wait until the final versions of the CA are finished.
I don't really like the idea of having a glitchy unit until the final FW
Is released. Last thing I need is a WOT situation !
That's smart for sure, it's Beta for a reason and may be for a while yet.
I think I'll need to swap out my controller when I get the V3 and tq
Sensor though. My controller seems to have a delay in ramping up.
I'm sure this would not play nice with the way I intend to run it.
Our experience is that if the controller's ramp delay time is more than 1 second it can be really problematic to control, but less than 0.5 sec tends to regulate no problem. So if you pick the wheel off the ground and time how long it takes to reach full RPM after you apply full throttle, you should get a good idea. You can always try with your existing controller first, and only if it seems impossible to tune it switch to another model.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Aug 16 2012 3:34am

Thanks for the info.

My current ezee controller seems like its about 2 sec.
If you nail the throttle, it seems to be about 2 sec before anything happens.

I won't be running any other throttle. I want it set up solely as a human / electric
Hybrid. So the motor actively rewards you for pedalling. No pedal = no go.

Yeah, temps here can soar into the low 40's (c) here in summer.
In fact where I work it got up to 47c last summer one day.


I can wait as long as it takes to get this done.

I'll just keep watching this thread with great interest.

Jason.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by crusoe » Aug 16 2012 4:31pm

Not sure if it's already been covered, but any chance of a digital clock on the CA?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Architectonic » Aug 16 2012 9:10pm

crusoe wrote:Not sure if it's already been covered, but any chance of a digital clock on the CA?
Or a stopwatch? :wink:

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 17 2012 12:26am

Justin

More on the throttle issue. I removed the throttle diode from my controller and replaced it with a 1K resistor, in preparation for moving to pass through throttle. As there is a diode in the CA, all should be ok.

Still connected as legacy, when I turned the power on, the motor started up for a few seconds and then turned off, then a few seconds later it did it again. It went on and off about 3 times and then it stayed on.

I turned down the throttle out max to 1 volt and it stopped. Increased to 2 volts and it started up again.

I think that the slow running at startup is linked to the output on the TH0 for pass through mode. like wise I think that the pass through is still outputting when in legacy mode. I have disabled the throttle in and set the values as 0.00 and 0.02 as instructed.

This should help you with this issue, to try and pinpoint the problem.

I put the diode back for now.

Cruzxia

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Aug 17 2012 2:44am

crusoe wrote:Not sure if it's already been covered, but any chance of a digital clock on the CA?
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ck#p564552
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ck#p564862

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 17 2012 4:07am

Summary of Throttle (Diode) Pad Connections by PCB Revision
cruzxia wrote:I removed the throttle diode from my controller and replaced it with a 1K resistor, in preparation for moving to pass through throttle. As there is a diode in the CA, all should be ok.

Still connected as legacy, when I turned the power on, the motor started up for a few seconds and then turned off, then a few seconds later it did it again. It went on and off about 3 times and then it stayed on.

I turned down the throttle out max to 1 volt and it stopped. Increased to 2 volts and it started up again.
There is a fine point in Justin's explanation here that relates to the differences in throttle output pin labeling between the various CA PCB revisions. Here is a table that may help clarify the situation:
CA-Throttle-Output-By-Rev.gif
CA-Throttle-Output-By-Rev.gif (4.63 KiB) Viewed 3416 times
The labeling change between v2 and v3 is a bit confusing and seems to be what derailed your efforts. In your case since neither the controller nor the CA had a diode and your CA had no throttle input (legacy mode), when you raised ThrO->MaxOutput to 2v, ThO exceeded the controller minimum throttle voltage causing the motor to run.

The v3 Thd output in the 2nd photo in this post was not discussed in Justin's post but allows operation in legacy mode with controllers that lack an internal diode. Relocating the CA V3 DP throttle connection (green) from ThO to Thd would have introduced a diode as you expected and made your modifications operate properly.
Last edited by teklektik on Jan 27 2013 1:54pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cruzxia   100 W

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 17 2012 5:15am

Thanks for clarifying that, I did scan through, and all I could find on THd was that it was for future use.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 17 2012 9:28am

cruzxia wrote:Thanks for clarifying that, I did scan through, and all I could find on THd was that it was for future use.
Thd was explained to me in the context of the new CA DP interface that Grin Tech will be proposing and that Justin described in his post. By removing the diode in the controller, you created a situation similar to the coming interface standard where that 'future use' scenario would be in play to allow use of a legacy throttle.

Your point is a good one - my annotation on that photo should probably omit the 'future use' phrase as unhelpful and perhaps misleading. Thanks!

EDIT - Photo revised. Also added note about ThO w/o diode to help minimize confusion.

cruzxia - Your phased implementation strategy was a good one and it's unfortunate the information to support your efforts was not clear. But thanks for the detailed post - maybe the doc is a little more squared away now so others won't have the same difficulties.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Aug 21 2012 11:16am

justin_le wrote:I've attached here the B17 firmware here, ... The only significant difference from the B16 is that the leading zero's in the setup menu are implemented in a way that they are hidden when showing the value, but all show up the moment you go to edit a number. Hopefully that does make it the best of both worlds.
This is a somewhat belated post, but the numeric reformatting worked out great. It also fixed the invisible zero values that displayed with just a decimal point ('_._') and added a leading zero before fractional values so '.99' becomes the more familiar '0.99'.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Aug 21 2012 2:59pm

cruzxia wrote:I have been testing the limited power on startup again.

After using the throttle a few times, suddenly it goes back to unrestricted full power, and is fine until you restart the CA

cruzxia
Hey guys, just so you know know Beta18 version of the firmware is being field tested a bit and will go live soon. The issue with it sometimes failing to boot with noisy on/off switches has been fixed. However, for the above problem people have had with the throttle initially cutting low a few times during starting, can those who've experienced this try setting the differential gain term to zero? So in setup->Speed Limes-> DSGain, change it to 0 rather than the default of 2. I'd like to see for sure if this was the source.

What I think was happening is that the moment that the CA first started to detect an actual speed after the 2nd magnet pass, its calculated vehicle acceleration could be very high or ill-defined. Even if the current speed is well below the speed limit, if the CA thinks it is accellerating fast enough towards that limit then the throttle output could drop low without triggering the overspeed flag.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by cruzxia » Aug 21 2012 7:35pm

Hi Justin

Yes that was the problem, I set the DSGain to 0 and it starts up unrestricted. To confirm I returned the setting to 2 and it restricted again. I did notice that the DSGain when set to 0 does not show any number on the display.

I have not had the unit cut out on me during the last few rides, however I did drop the current settings in my controller from peaks of 49A down to 34A. So it is possible that the high current was causing enough noise to affect the CA. It also could be the crystal falling over from the noise and then restarting, You can monitor the crystal in the firmware, and if it stops for any reason, you can switch to the internal oscillator to keep the micro running until the crystal reboots. I implement this feature in most designs and it works well, it switches over in ms.

Re Watchdog - I have a programmer, so I can reflash the whole unit including the config data, to allow use of the watchdog and brownout features, if you decide to enable them as part of your firmware.

I will be connecting the through CA throttle as soon as the JST connectors arrive in the mail. I will advise if i run into any issues.

Cruzxia

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