Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 19 2012 11:22am

justin_le wrote:
teklektik wrote:Justin-
One thing that my auto ECU offers for display that is absent on the CA is Instantaneous Mileage. In CA terms this would be Instantaneous Wh/mi.
Oddly that was the original plan in the first CA rather than showing the trip aggregate, but I found in practice it is less useful than I would have thought. Your instantaneous Wh/km moves around an order of magnitude between going up steep hills and accelerating vs. riding on the flat with a tail wind, and so seeing you briefly pull 100 Wh/km doesn't necessarily mean much (in terms of what your total usage will be) if it's getting you up to speed or up in elevation. ... you'd probably want it to be a longer time averaged version of the mileage. ... I think for user feedback something that is more like a 20-30 second rolling average of the mileage figure would be more meaningful that instant, which is pretty jumpy. ... Another possibility would be to have a stats reset counter that will refresh the Wh/km figure but not say your total distance or total Ah.
Justin-
Thanks for the quick response. I agree 100% with your assessments of the problems with an instantaneous value. I find the same issues with Instantaneous MPG in my auto and address them in a manner similar to what you have proposed - resetting the Avg MPG for a test run or repeatedly as a poor man's rolling average.

I really wanted to fly the basic idea and leave the details up to you since the biggest part of the problem is not the calculation but resource management - display area, top level button pushes, memory for rolling calculations, additional configuration, etc. Some of the solution could be tied to the configurable screen concept discussed in earlier posts, etc, so diving into supporting details seemed like it might muddy the concept presentation.

That said, a rolling mean with a configurable max period (sample lifetime) of 15-30 seconds would be terrific even if the granularity of the rolling sample period was only something like 5 seconds. Different levels of reset are somewhat attractive, but I don't believe the feature value warrants complicating the button press situation (particularly those that need to be accomplished while underway).
justin_le wrote:Thinking about how to implement it. Right now you can choose between watts or amps on the main screen, and there could easily be a 3rd choice to show Wh/km instead.
Since these are in the same general category of energy expenditure metrics, this could be a nice approach.
justin_le wrote:Other possibility would be to have it toggle with the Ah and Distance (and optional Temp) data. In that case though, you'd probably want it to be a longer time averaged version of the mileage.
This seems less attractive, but still workable. In this case, you might forego the rolling average in lieu of a running average that resets when the Wh/mi display value goes out of sight. It would then begin accumulating the new value and continue to average in new values until reset again in the next rotating display cycle. The advantage would be eliminating the configuration of a rolling period (driven instead by display period), and eliminating storage needed to maintain a rolling value (there would only be the current accumulated average since last reset). This seems slightly sub-optimal but still valuable as a compromise while we're saving resources for other goodies...

Anyhow - glad to have this on your memo list for consideration... :)
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 21 2012 3:03pm

I just tried to flash/configure the v3B18c firmware and found that a new Cal->Rshunt value can be entered but cannot be saved to alter the default 0.000 configuration value.

Justin is nailing down the final locations for critical calibration parameters and I believe this and other firmware versions moving forward should preserve select calibration values and so tried a couple of re-flashes of past builds to get different default data in eeprom. Re-flashing with v3B18c as the final flash always seems to suffer the same Rshunt-save problem.

I did not pursue test of other setup values or general firmware functionality.

Anyone else having this Rshunt-save issue? Justin may be tied up with business and personal matters for a bit, so any feedback from other beta testers would be welcome.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Sep 21 2012 6:16pm

teklektik wrote:Anyone else having this Rshunt-save issue?
Yes, on two "pre production" CAv3's
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 21 2012 11:29pm

MattyCiii wrote:
teklektik wrote:Anyone else having this Rshunt-save issue?
Yes, on two "pre production" CAv3's
Thanks! Justin emailed.
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naix   1 µW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by naix » Sep 22 2012 12:18pm

hi justin.

I have a problem about CAV3.
Can I do something to clear probrem?

I think this is firm bug. because From the thro terminal, default voltage is outputted correctly.
(I have sent "info@ebikes.ca",But your mail server judged my mail to be a junk mail. :cry: :cry: :cry: so, it contributed here.)

Naix
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 22 2012 1:49pm

naix wrote:hi justin.
I have a problem about CAV3.
Can I do something to clear probrem?
I think this is firm bug.
As mentioned above, Justin may be tied up for a bit, but maybe forum folks here can help until he can get back to reviewing the posts. The functionality you are describing is very basic and has been well exercised, so I think a little Setup tweaking may address the problem...

First, as noted in a recent post, the v3b16 firmware file is known to be corrupted and the v3B18 appears to have difficulties. I would recommend upgrading to v3B17 to get onto the newest firmware base that is known to be uncompromised.

Next, please verify that you have configured according to the unoffical setup instructions in this post and as noted there, have not configured any other CTRL, limit, or gain settings. (Verifying the setup procedure eliminates many potential debug questions... :) )

And last, although you provided some values by photo, it would be helpful if you could provide all the settings for ThI and ThO setup parameters as well as the throttle type (hall/resistive) - (just type the values - no need for photos)...
  • Setup Throt In
    1. ThrI -> Cntrl Mode
    2. ThrI -> Min Input
    3. ThrI -> Max Input
    4. ThrI -> Fault Volt
  • Setup Throt Out
    1. ThrO -> Output Mode
    2. ThrO -> Min Output
    3. ThrO -> Max Output
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naix   1 µW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by naix » Sep 23 2012 12:18am

Hi teklektik.
Thanks for kindly responce :) :)

I have tried upgrade firm 16B->17 to clear configuration.
Its very ok. Clear my probrem now :D :D :D
thanks very much.

below is my setting
It is same when 16B.
so 、The cause is unknown. I would like to expect justin :) :) :) .
  • Setup Throt In
    1. ThrI -> Cntrl Mode : pass through
    2. ThrI -> Min Input :0.9V
    3. ThrI -> Max Input :3.8V
    4. ThrI -> Fault Volt : 4.5V
  • Setup Throt Out
    1. ThrO -> Output Mode :voltage
    2. ThrO -> Min Output :0.9V
    3. ThrO -> Max Output:3.8V
Naix

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Sep 23 2012 12:49am

naix- This is great news! I'm very happy all went well. Enjoy your V3! :D
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naix   1 µW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by naix » Sep 23 2012 9:49am

teklektik wrote:naix- This is great news! I'm very happy all went well. Enjoy your V3! :D
thx too much your helping :D :D :D
I will enjoy much :D

by the way . I want to ride without throttle. because of the law of the country .
but pas mode have start delay.so i will try torque mode mainly.
What is a recommended setup for giving a quick response to start dash?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Oct 03 2012 1:02am

My 'human power' graph has just started showing up on the display for some reason. It fluctuates from full to nothing every few seconds.

What could be causing this?

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Bugs a FIXED

Post by justin_le » Oct 04 2012 3:49am

Well just to say that over the past few weeks we have finally got to the bottom of some of the issues that have been holding back release and further code development. The first and biggest one was the occasional 20-30 second freezup of the CA display that a few people like Tekletik and Cruzxia have mentioned, usually preceded immediately by very high glitch in the human watts number.

For some reason I had convinced myself that this was some mysterious and deep bug in the firmware, but it turns out to have been a hardware issue. At some point while testing different PAS sensors the internal pull-up resistor on the RPM input line was disabled, allowing this voltage to float. If someone didn't have a PAS sensor connected, then the floating voltage could gradually drift pass the logic threshold, and in a noisy environment it would then trigger a crazy large number of PAS sensor events to the CA, first resulting in large RPM and HWatts figures and in extreme cases eventually tying up the CA in an almost infinite sequence of interrupts.

If you short the PAS RPM input to Gnd then this never happens. In the current Beta19 firmware the internal pull-up to 5V is enabled so you can leave it disconnected without any worry.
My 'human power' graph has just started showing up on the display for some reason. It fluctuates from full to nothing every few seconds.
This is the same issue above. In a pinch you can put a jumper between pins 2 and 4 of the 5-pin PAS connector and will stay at 0, but best to reflash with the B19.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Oct 04 2012 4:08am

Can wait to get my hands on the CA V3 and Thun BB !

Great news that you are almost ready for the public FW.

Many thanks to everyone here who has contributed towards ironing out these bugs.

Jason
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Voltage Display Glitch

Post by justin_le » Oct 04 2012 4:14am

The 2nd item was that after resetting or power cycling the CA, the voltage display would sometimes jump between two different readings that were about 0.2V apart. It turns out that the trace with the scaled battery voltage weaves very close to the crystal oscillator and was picking up oscillator noise. The internal CPU clock runs at 4 times the oscillator frequency thanks to a phase locked loop, so depending on the exact crystal startup sequence the beginning of each ADC sample could alias with a different part of the clock noise, which explains why the display would be steady but would randomly change state after a power cycle, reset, or other event that interrupts and restarts the oscillator and phase locked loop.

Unfortunately the only way to remedy this is with a hardware modification to the board. The easiest is to solder a 10-100nF capacitor to the signal line, as depicted in the picture here:
100nF_CA3_Cap.jpg
Picture showing where to solder capacitor on CA3
100nF_CA3_Cap.jpg (55.09 KiB) Viewed 3781 times
The capacitor can solder between the top of C11 (gnd) and the bottom of the solder jumper which has the scaled pack voltage signal. It's important to be sure that the solder on the jumper still bridges the lower and middle pads. We can send a handful of 100nF 0805 surface mount caps to anyone with a V3 CA who would like to eliminate this issue, just contact by email with your mailing address and we'll have them fired off.

All of our existing supply of boards will be modified with this capacitor add-on, and we will change the board layout for the next batch to avoid this issue. That said, in practice, the 0.2V variation in voltage isn't of any material consequence, since it's less than 0.5% of the typical ebike battery voltage and within the 1% expected CA accuracy. So if you have a V3 CA beta device, I wouldn't generally worry about this unless you have a situation where a difference of 0.2V on the overall pack is important.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 04 2012 4:19am

naix wrote: What is a recommended setup for giving a quick response to start dash?
For that, you will want to set the "Start Delay" to a high number, like 60 or so. You should also choose a PAS sensor that has many poles. I've seen PAS rings with just 4-5 magnets, and others that have more like 12. The more magnets or pulses per wheel rotation, the faster the CA can react to your start of pedaling. The torque assist mode also still requires that you are pedaling before the proportional assist will kick in (otherwise for instance, you could just stand on the pedals and generate a very large torque signal without doing any work).

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Beta19 CA V3 Firmware

Post by justin_le » Oct 04 2012 4:46am

Diamondback wrote:Can wait to get my hands on the CA V3 and Thun BB !
Great news that you are almost ready for the public FW.
So it's actually getting very very close now and I would like repeat Jason's thank you to all the beta users who have helped to identify and sort a number of glitches so far. Having a lot of hands and eyes really helps immensely.

I've finally got around to publishing a decent amount of documentation of the V3 CA on our website too, including all the connector pinout and wiring info as well as an explanation of every item in the setup menu.

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_CAV3.php

On that website is also a link to the Beta19 firmware that solves the crazy Human Watts and occasional crashing bug. Also, be sure to download the latest firmware utility program from there too, as the earlier one I had posted here did not support firmware updates that left the calibration data alone.

One of the other additions to the B19 code is that I now have a 'preview' display on every screen in the setup menu. For instance, in the "Setup Spdometer" display, you can see your unit selection, the number of poles, and a real-time display of whether the speedo signal is currently high or low. That way it's easy to diagnose if a speedometer sensor is picking up and it simplifies figuring out the number of poles in a motor by rotating one full revolution and counting the number of Hi-Lo transitions.
Setp_Spdometer.jpg
Setp_Spdometer.jpg (19.15 KiB) Viewed 3776 times
Similarly, you can see what your auxiliary potentiometer voltage is at and whether it is set up for amps limiting, speed limiting, watts limiting etc.
Setup_CntrlMode.jpg
Setup_CntrlMode.jpg (18.14 KiB) Viewed 3776 times
And the "Setup Battery" preview shows whether you have pack 'A' or 'B' selected and displays it as a chemistry and nominal voltage (inferred from the series cell count):
Setup_battery.jpg
Setup_battery.jpg (18.92 KiB) Viewed 3776 times
There are a few more display refinements being worked on in the Beta20 code. But if a week runs by with nobody reporting any issues in the B19 firmware then I think we'd be basically ready to go live. Then it will be time to open the champagne bottle and celebrate!
Attachments
CA3_Connectors.gif
CA V3 Connector Explanation
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Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 04 2012 5:54pm

Setup Summary for CA v3B19

The setting summary for the newer v3B20 release is available here.
The setting summary for the previous v3B16/v3B17 releases are available here.
Unofficial basic setup notes are available here.

Please see the Grin Tech Site for a detailed explanation of Setup Parameters.

Printable version:
CA_v3B19_ConfigSettings.zip
(1.62 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
Last edited by teklektik on Nov 11 2012 1:02pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bjorntsc » Oct 05 2012 4:52pm

The thread is extremely long.
Is there a way to use the cycle analyst V3 to turn a rc controller system into a current based throttle instead of speed based?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by amberwolf » Oct 05 2012 5:31pm

You may wish to look at the RC-CA version thread linked in the very first post of this thread. here is the link again:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=29846

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 05 2012 7:20pm

I know there are some readers who have been sitting on the fence about the V3, so here's a quick knee-jerk evaluation of v3B19 (short form: the wait is over! :D )

Using the new Firmware Flash Utility from the CAV3 page of the Grin Tech site, I flashed v3B19, trying both the plain vanilla and NoCal versions. As Justin promised, the NoCal version preserved the settings in the Setup 'Calibration' section. Nice.

My bike is as described in my signature below and has no PAS or temp measurement equipment so I cannot speak to those features. The CA is configured according to the Unofficial Setup Notes - here's my exact settings:
CA_v3B19_ConfigSettings_teklektik_20121004.zip
(1.4 KiB) Downloaded 102 times
In broad strokes my CA is set up for Power Throttle (new feature!), power limiting on CNTL input driven by LMH switch, and Plim->MaxPower=3300W. Because I have BMC gear motors, I'm running a slow ThrO->UpRamp=32 to save the clutches and no down ramp at all (ThrO->DownRamp=999).

Setup works very nicely with no glitches or display artifacts at all - not much to say - it's final production quality. The live data voltage and speedometer displays make a review of equipment health quick and effortless.

I took the bike on a no-pedal 30 mile run today and the CA worked flawlessly. There is no surging or cutouts and the Human Power display behaved itself (I have no PAS so 'behaved' means it stayed at zero :) ). There were absolutely no issues - everything was smooth as silk at all LMH settings from 450W to 3300W. The closed loop Power Throttle (similar to Current Throttle) worked smoothly with nicely refined control from barely rolling to WOT both on the flat and up hills.

You can use either Current or Power limiting for throttle and CNTL features, but since I have voltage to burn at 66v, I use the Power settings. The result is that the bike runs the same at the end of ride at 60v with 80% DOD as it does hot off the charger at 73v. Very nice. (There is also a closed loop Speed Limiting option for throttle/CNTL but I have not tried that mode under v3B19.)

Justin has promised some refinements/features for v3B20, but I find v3B19 to be bike-ready. I haven't flogged the daylights out of it, but the anomalous behaviors of the past appear to have been addressed and the current state of the firmware is nicely polished.

My bike has two torquey gear motors running above the recommended max of 60v which gives the bike a twitchy and unmanageable throttle curve and too much torque for the clutches to endure. Adding the V3 gives me smooth getaways, refined throttle at all speeds, and provides an LHM switch not available on my controllers - it completely transforms the riding experience - hard to believe it's the same bike. This is not the purchase for someone who just wants an Ah meter, it's for folks who want their unruly throttle, controller, and motor to make nice and play together. If you have a MAC or BMC, buy a V3 instead of a replacement gear cluster...

I'm sure this post sounds gushy and some small issues may turn up, but v3B19 is a giant step forward and really delivers. :mrgreen:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by rscamp » Oct 05 2012 7:49pm

Don't mince words. Do you like it or not?

:)
Rob
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Oct 05 2012 10:12pm

teklektik wrote:In broad strokes my CA is set up for Power Throttle (new feature!), power limiting on CNTL input driven by LMH switch, and Plim->MaxPower=3300W. Because I have BMC gear motors, I'm running a slow ThrO->UpRamp=32 to save the clutches and no down ramp at all (ThrO->DownRamp=999).
Power Throttle sounds like a great new feature. Can you tell us if there is a cruise control capability when using the CA throttle in each of its modes (power, current, or voltage)?

What is an "LMH switch"?

Thanks.
Bill Bushnell
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » Oct 05 2012 11:22pm

justin_le wrote: Also, be sure to download the latest firmware utility program from there too, as the earlier one I had posted here did not support firmware updates that left the calibration data alone.
This makes me exceedingly happy. :mrgreen:


rscamp wrote:Don't mince words. Do you like it or not?
I'll provide a non-minced summary.

I've been using the CA3 for a few months now, and it's just a great box, period. The closed-loop current throttle mode alone is worth the purchase price. I can't imagine a better device to have hanging on my handlebars.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bjorntsc » Oct 06 2012 12:08am

Yet again this amazing site and people come through in helping anyone doing anything EV and them some... :mrgreen:

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 06 2012 2:02am

mrbill wrote:Can you tell us if there is a cruise control capability when using the CA throttle in each of its modes (power, current, or voltage)?
Presently no. See this post for planned cruise control capability.
mrbill wrote:What is an "LMH switch"?
This is a (handlebar) 'Low/Medium/High' switch typically supported by controllers to scale the max throttle on-the-fly to selectable percentages of the maximum configured Amps (e.g. 20%, 50%, 100%). This makes higher powered bikes more controllable for protracted lower speed operation like diddling along on a bike path. Here I was using the term generically to indicate similar functionality that can be obtained using the V3.
LHM-switch.png
Commercially available LHM switch for a Crystalyte controller
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 06 2012 4:26am

teklektik wrote: I'm sure this post sounds gushy and some small issues may turn up, but v3B19 is a giant step forward and really delivers. :mrgreen:
I swear that I don't pay teklektik to say that! But I would like to hear back especially from other people who have had some issues or glitches with their beta device so far, as to how it behaves with the B19 firmware. So if you can get a chance to install and try it out in the coming week that'd be great. The speed limiting really can be dialed in to work well, so those with a bit of familiarity with PID controllers I'd encourage playing around to find the gain values that best stabilize your setup in speed limit mode and post them here.

Attached as well is an even more refined firmware updater utility. There are still a few more tweaks before we make it official but it's now just a single button press to reflash a unit and gives better status updates on the progress. It will default to selecting the highest value COM port which is normally what gets assigned to the USB->TTL adapter when it is plugged in, and if you move the firmware .hex files to the same directory where the program is unpacked then it will automatically list them in the drop-down.
Flash_Updater.gif
Flash_Updater.gif (20.56 KiB) Viewed 5460 times
-Justin
Attachments
CAFUT-SE.zip
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Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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