Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 10 2012 6:40am

teklektik wrote: As you point out, the necessary throttle signal is available on the CA DP connector, so it's a small matter to slip another JST pin into the mating shunt DP connector to pick up ThO and run this to a new JST connector to mate with the controller throttle connection - a small variation on Justin's HowTo Throttle post. It's perhaps a little unfortunate that the new shunt does not have such a throttle plug already installed
That's actually the idea. You'll notice that there is a plugged hole in the grommet on the side that doesn't have the CA-DP wire. The plan will be to include a wire coming out of this as well that has both the CA's throttle output and speedo lines. That way those with a Stand Alone shunt can much more easily interface to either the controller's throttle input or hall signals and make it a bit more like a controller with a CA-DP plug. It's just that we need to prepare a new batch of partial-stripped cable harnesses to do that and haven't got around to it yet.

In the meantime though, you can peel back the heatshrink on the shunt's 6-pin connector, and you'll see that there is a green wire already hooked up to a pin making contact with the throttle signal from the CA. Snip this green wire (it's just a dead end into the shunt) and then extend it to connect to the throttle input of your controller and you should be good to go.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Oct 10 2012 7:01am

teklektik wrote: I would just use a 5K pot with a linear taper and hook it up as shown towards the bottom of this post. This would give you the 0-100% limit adjustability that you wish without the steps. Again - no PAS-smarts in this quarter, but from a limit perspective, this should do the job.
perfect, the fully variable solution is exactly what i want.

thanks :)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Joe Perez » Oct 11 2012 3:13pm

A recent post reminded me of something I'd been wondering about for a little while:
teklektik wrote:In this Current Throttle example, if Plim->MaxCurrent is set to 50A then WOT is 50A. Assuming the rider throttle is more or less linear, adjusting the throttle to 10% rotation yields a predictable controller output of 10% of 50A or 5A.
One of the things which I have noticed about my throttle in particular (a thumb-style hall throttle) is that it is, in fact, massively non-linear. Seems that the first 10% of rotation takes you to about 40% of voltage output, the area between 20-80% of rotation gets you from maybe 40% of output to 60% of output, and then the last 10% of physical rotation takes you from 60% to 100% of output.

I'm not kidding- most of the control is at the extreme ends of the throttle, with a huge dead spot in the middle.

Being able to actually visualize this happening in the CA3 really helped me to understand why my throttle always seemed a tad strange, and with the closed-loop current mode, I've found it pretty easy to overcome that oddity.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 11 2012 4:57pm

Joe Perez wrote: One of the things which I have noticed about my throttle in particular (a thumb-style hall throttle) is that it is, in fact, massively non-linear. Seems that the first 10% of rotation takes you to about 40% of voltage output, the area between 20-80% of rotation gets you from maybe 40% of output to 60% of output, and then the last 10% of physical rotation takes you from 60% to 100% of output.

I'm not kidding- most of the control is at the extreme ends of the throttle, with a huge dead spot in the middle.

Being able to actually visualize this happening in the CA3 really helped me to understand why my throttle always seemed a tad strange, and with the closed-loop current mode, I've found it pretty easy to overcome that oddity.
Hey Joe, this is common with throttles that have two distinct magnets poles facing each other with the hall sensor chip located in between them. The field intensity coming off the pole of a permanent magnet is anything but linear, so you get a large dead band area in between the two magnets with it then changing dramatically near the pole faces.

On many of the newer throttles I've seen (such as from Wuxing), there is just a single arc shaped magnetic strip that is gradually polarized from N on one end to S on the other. The hall sensor is against the side of this curved magnet piece and the output voltage response is almost perfectly linear with throttle movement. So you might want to consider getting a new throttle. I could in principle add non-linear input throttle mapping to the V3 CA, but it could get a little tricky on the setup front.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 12 2012 11:55am

justin_le wrote:
Joe Perez wrote: One of the things which I have noticed about my throttle in particular (a thumb-style hall throttle) is that it is, in fact, massively non-linear.
Hey Joe, this is common with throttles that have two distinct magnets poles facing each other with the hall sensor chip located in between them. The field intensity coming off the pole of a permanent magnet is anything but linear, so you get a large dead band area in between the two magnets with it then changing dramatically near the pole faces.

On many of the newer throttles .. there is just a single arc shaped magnetic strip that is gradually polarized from N on one end to S on the other. The hall sensor is against the side of this curved magnet piece and the output voltage response is almost perfectly linear with throttle movement.
Here's a thread that discusses remedies for hall throttle issues. Much of the discussion is in regard to matching the throttle and CA voltage ranges which the V3 already does via Setup, but the rest outlines an add-a-magnet hack to fiddle the magnetic field that can improve linearity while relocating much of the dead zone to one end of the range of motion. I'm sure the result is nowhere near as effective as the cool arc-shaped linear magnet Justin describes, but it might be worth a try on a rainy day.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lollandster » Oct 13 2012 2:23am

Hi, I have just connected and tested out the CA3 with the Thun torque sensor and it works very good. I received the CA3 with the Beta19 already installed so I haven't touched that.

The only problem I have is that when I'm in high speed (relative to max speed, my bike isn't fast) and I stop pedaling there is a delay when I start pedaling again before the motor kicks in. I noticed the same delay when using the throttle. I know there is some ramp up delay in the controller I'm using too, but it looks like the output (according to the display at least) from the CA3 ramps up slowly too. I tried changing the Up Ramp to 999 (from standard 500) but that didn't do anything.

I tried attaching a small gif video of what I see:
Attachments
CA3_Rampup_delay.gif
Also, the A in awsvt is constantly changing between upper and lower case A.
CA3_Rampup_delay.gif (221.69 KiB) Viewed 6092 times
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Oct 13 2012 2:32am

that's what i am worried about when i set up my CA V3 with the thun sensor.
(i have ordered most of the parts i require to set it up)

i think i will need to replace my controller with one that has minimal delay.
my current one is horribly slow to respond to throttle input.

you might find that you will need a better controller ?

Jason.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lollandster » Oct 13 2012 2:41am

Diamondback wrote:you might find that you will need a better controller ?
Yes, well that is easier said than done since I went for the SmartPie which has a built in controller. But it might be a good excuse to install a 72 volt controller/battery...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Oct 13 2012 2:48am

yes, i see. having a built in controller kind of limits your choices.....

mine is the 20A Ezee controller.it has about a 2 sec delay before much happens when you open the throttle.

as you said, good excuse to upgrade to a better external controller.... :D


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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Oct 15 2012 8:38pm

Just upgraded to 3.19 from 3.17... despite using the new flash tool and the nocal version of the hex it erased all my distance,cycles and amp/hr data and erased all the calibration and changed from km's to mph. I can't tell you how frustrating that is the one time I didn't write it all down first. I guess it was wrong to just assume it would have been tested and working properly before I tried it. One more free lesson for me I guess. Too bad I don't have any of my battery pack data now. Just a warning to any who try.
Last edited by lizardboy on Oct 16 2012 7:24pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Oct 16 2012 2:21am

lizardboy wrote:Just upgraded to 3.19 ... despite using the new flash tool and the nocal version of the hex it erased all my distance,cycles and amp/hr data and erased all the calibration....
Ouch, thanks for the warning. That must be really frustrating. I will start writing down my stuff.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Oct 16 2012 3:52am

I had the same thing, it remembered some things like RShunt but erased other things.

Luckily I had written most of the info down... except the long term data.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 16 2012 11:28pm

Shoot sorry Lizardboy, by calibration data I meant the RShunt, current offset, V/V setting and some internal variables not directly user accessible. Life cycle totals or any of the user settings isn't part of "calibration" and I should have been more clear about that. Do you still have handy where you wrote down the totals data at the previous reflashings? If so it should be possible to do a reasonable estimate on where it would be at now given your weekly usage since then.

There are very few pending changes to the eeprom mapping at the moment so once that is locked in in preparation for release then it will be easy to flash the firmware without any settings getting changed, and you won't have to reinput that stuff.

-Justin
lizardboy wrote:Just upgraded to 3.19 from 3.17... despite using the new flash tool and the nocal version of the hex it erased all my distance,cycles and amp/hr data and erased all the calibration and changed from km's to mph. I can't tell you how frustrating that is the one time I didn't write it all down first. I guess it was wrong to just assume it would have been tested and working properly before I tried it. One more free lesson for me I guess. Too bad I don't have any of my battery pack data now. Just a warning to any who try.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 17 2012 12:56am

lollandster wrote:Hi, I have just connected and tested out the CA3 with the Thun torque sensor and it works very good. I received the CA3 with the Beta19 already installed so I haven't touched that.
Super! It'll be great to hear more of your experience and thoughts on the Thun. One thing I'm not sure if we included was adhesive shrink-wrap to cover up the tiny molex connectors between the thun sensor and the cable harness that goes to the CA. Since this bit is exposed to water spray from the front wheel, it will be important to properly seal the connector itself from any water exposure or else the pins will probably corrode away.

We got some very nice 4:1 adhesive shrink from Waytex which completely seals around the cable sheath and keeps the connector dry:
http://www.waytekwire.com/products/1381 ... -Ratio=4-1

The only problem I have is that when I'm in high speed (relative to max speed, my bike isn't fast) and I stop pedaling there is a delay when I start pedaling again before the motor kicks in. I noticed the same delay when using the throttle. I know there is some ramp up delay in the controller I'm using too, but it looks like the output (according to the display at least) from the CA3 ramps up slowly too. I tried changing the Up Ramp to 999 (from standard 500) but that didn't do anything.
This can be the result of integral feedback gains being on the low side. Try increasing the value of the various IntSGain, AGain, WGain to see if that makes the ramping faster. I will be tweaking the code a bit in next release so that even with low integral gains there won't be this resulting rampup period, but as it is now if you drop off the throttle and then re-apply it, some of the other terms can result in a ramp limit slower than your "up ramp" value even though you aren't exceeding the limits. This is a minor consequence of another optimization designed to greatly reduce overshoot when you do exceed a limit.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 17 2012 1:04am

lizardboy wrote:Just upgraded to 3.19 from 3.17... despite using the new flash tool and the nocal version of the hex it erased all my distance,cycles and amp/hr data and erased all the calibration and changed from km's to mph.
I ran a suite of trials this evening attempting reflash of v3B19_NoCal on top of V3B17 and V3B19 Setups and looking only at the Calibration data for resultant data corruption.

Code: Select all

1. Setup Calibrtion     Data< 1.00 mohm >
    1. Cal -> Range = { [Lo (W)] | Hi (kW) } 
    2. Cal -> RShunt = [1.000] mOhm 
    3. Cal -> V Scale = [31.05] V/V
    4. Cal -> Zero Amps (aka Amps Offset)
It appears that the v3B19_NoCal version does not preserve Cal->Range but rather causes it to be set to Lo. Other Calibration parameters appear to be preserved properly.
  • In the case where Cal->Range is initially set to Hi and is then improperly set to Lo by V3B19_NoCal then the Cal->RShunt value appears corrupted since the stored value is interpreted incorrectly. However, manually restoring Cal->RShunt to Hi in this situation causes the Cal->RShunt value to reappear with the proper preserved value.
  • In the case where Cal->Range is initially set to Lo, then that value (erroneously) appears to be preserved when V3B19_NoCal overwrites the value with Lo and all the Calibration data appears to be preserved correctly. This Lo value was part of my original test scenario as reported in this post.
    teklektik wrote:Using the new Firmware Flash Utility from the CAV3 page of the Grin Tech site, I flashed v3B19, trying both the plain vanilla and NoCal versions. ... the NoCal version preserved the settings in the Setup 'Calibration' section.
Except for this issue, the Cal->RShunt and Cal->VScale values were consistently preserved by V3B19_NoCal when re-flashing from either V3B17 or V3B19. Since there was no handy display of the current Amps Offset, that last value was not verified.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 17 2012 1:11am

Man are you ever on top of this. The range mode indeed is not in the part of memory reserved for 'calibration' and hence would get overwritten with the default 'low' value, which would result in the RShunt being displayed decimal shifted after the reflash. Thanks for pointing that out!

Again I agree that it's annoying to have to go through and re-input this and all the other customization settings after each flash upgrade, so will do what I can to make it so that future releases can change the code only and leave all the settings memory alone.

-Justin
teklektik wrote: It appears that the v3B19_NoCal version does not preserve Cal->Range but rather causes it to be set to Lo. Other Calibration parameters appear to be preserved properly.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Oct 17 2012 1:59am

Hey Justin, I am using the 'Throttle thru' method and occasionally when powering on my controller, I get a split second of full throttle causing the bike's front wheel to lift. Although it happens rarely, it's not ideal.
It probably has something to do with the controller's throttle pin's being joined to let the CA control the throttle.

Is there any way around this?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Oct 17 2012 2:34am

shorza wrote:Hey Justin, I am using the 'Throttle thru' method and occasionally when powering on my controller, I get a split second of full throttle causing the bike's front wheel to lift. Although it happens rarely, it's not ideal.
It probably has something to do with the controller's throttle pin's being joined to let the CA control the throttle.

Is there any way around this?
Hey Shroza, can you tell me if this short burst happens:
a) Immediately after power on, before the splash screen even appears
b) While you see the text "Cycle Anlayst..." or
c) Just as the CA switches from the splash screen to the normal display ?

Also, some controllers internally pull the throttle to 5V rather than pulling to ground, so if you could measure the voltage on your throttle signal line when there is no CA or throttle attached to it that would be useful too. If that's the case installing like a 5K resistor between the throttle signal and ground pin would solve things.

-Justin
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by shorza » Oct 17 2012 2:39am

It seems to happen as soon as I either turn the controller on, or when I connect the battery, if the controller's already switched on.

It happens about once a month, so I can't replicate it easily. If i remember correctly, my throttle read just under 5 volts. I will try installing a resister next time i work on it.

Cheers.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lollandster » Oct 18 2012 3:53am

Is there a way to easily turn off the throttle so I can only use the Thun? I have soldered my throttle to the CA3 so It's not easily disconnected. I guess I can change the minimum input voltage to 5v, but that isn't ideal.
justin_le wrote:One thing I'm not sure if we included was adhesive shrink-wrap to cover up the tiny molex connectors between the thun sensor and the cable harness that goes to the CA. Since this bit is exposed to water spray from the front wheel, it will be important to properly seal the connector itself from any water exposure or else the pins will probably corrode away.
Shrink tube was not included, but that isn't a problem because I put the cable inside the frame so it shouldn't be exposed to any water.
Thun_cable_3.jpg
Thun_cable_3.jpg (46.38 KiB) Viewed 3100 times
I had a maximum speed of 634kph yesterday according to the CA. Have you thought about implementing a filter that eliminates those kind of spikes?
634kph.png
634kph
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Diamondback » Oct 18 2012 4:37am

lollandster wrote:Is there a way to easily turn off the throttle so I can only use the Thun? I have soldered my throttle to the CA3 so It's not easily disconnected. I guess I can change the minimum input voltage to 5v, but that isn't ideal.

Set the start speed to some nominal figure of 4-5kph / mph ?

That way the throttle will do nothing unless the bike is already moving ?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lollandster » Oct 18 2012 4:44am

Diamondback wrote:Set the start speed to some nominal figure of 4-5kph / mph ?

That way the throttle will do nothing unless the bike is already moving ?
I want the throttle to be completely disconnected so it's only the torque sensor that drives the motor.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ashwright » Oct 18 2012 4:57am

lollandster wrote:
Diamondback wrote:Set the start speed to some nominal figure of 4-5kph / mph ?

That way the throttle will do nothing unless the bike is already moving ?
I want the throttle to be completely disconnected so it's only the torque sensor that drives the motor.
Just curious as to why you need it different to the throttle being in the off position.

You could always solder a switch into the throttle single line, to disconnect it.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lollandster » Oct 18 2012 5:16am

ashwright wrote:Just curious as to why you need it different to the throttle being in the off position.
Partly it's because of legal reasons, to legally use the bike here the throttle can't drive the bike without also pedaling. But the main reason is just to force myself to actually pedal instead of using the throttle, it is very hard not to turn the throttle when it is there and ready to use. I don't want to remove the throttle completely because I'm sure I'll regret it if I do.
ashwright wrote:You could always solder a switch into the throttle single line, to disconnect it.
That isn't a dumb idea. If the same switch also gives the correct input on the aux connector to limit the max speed to 25kpm I'll have a legalize button. I think I'll start on that now.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Oct 18 2012 10:05am

lollandster wrote:
ashwright wrote:You could always solder a switch into the throttle single line, to disconnect it.
That isn't a dumb idea. If the same switch also gives the correct input on the aux connector to limit the max speed to 25kpm I'll have a legalize button.
Simply disconnecting the throttle may not be the best plan because of the floating CA throttle input. I might recommend instead that you mimic the CA throttle override concept that Justin describes in the first paragraph of this post. Here you might tie a 5K resistor in-line with your throttle signal and use the switch to bring the CA side of the resistor to Gnd.

Using a DPST switch, the throttle override approach, and discarding R2 in the first LHM switch circuit in a recent post should get you the desired 'Legal/WooHoo!' switch that you wish. :)
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