Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 01 2012 8:23pm

MattyCiii wrote:I'm using the CAv3 with a Castle HV-160 ice2. This post might be helpful. The quoted e-mail conversation in that post should be read from the bottom - up. Hope it helps!
MCiii- I forgot about that post! I have linked it into the non-RC setup post. Thanks!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Dec 01 2012 9:36pm

Thanks guys.

Can anyone tell me where the "dedicated throttle input" is that i have seen emphasized in these posts several times.

Is it just the pod at the top of the board marked "throttle +5 volt" or am I missing something?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 01 2012 10:09pm

Green Machine wrote:Can anyone tell me where the "dedicated throttle input" is that i have seen emphasized in these posts several times.

Is it just the pod at the top of the board marked "throttle +5 volt" or am I missing something?
Yep - it is the Thi pad (see image here).

Previously on V2 the Vi pad could be used for either Thi or limit functions. The V3 splits this into separate dedicated Thi and POT pads - hence the terminology...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Dec 02 2012 4:20pm

THanks for all the help guys. So it seems i have all the wires connected properly...

And now it is just software programming to get the right settings with the throttle in and out....pretty frustrating.

Can anyone with a castle controller and astro motor give me a hint on what their throttle in and out settings are?


At this point i will use a magura resistor throttle or a hall throttle....whatever it takes to not spend the day trying to get the settings just right.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 02 2012 5:06pm

Green Machine wrote:So it seems i have all the wires connected properly...

And now it is just software programming to get the right settings with the throttle in and out....pretty frustrating.

Can anyone with a castle controller and astro motor give me a hint on what their throttle in and out settings are?

At this point i will use a magura resistor throttle or a hall throttle....whatever it takes to not spend the day trying to get the settings just right.
If your wiring is correct, the procedures in the post will definitely get throttle in set correctly - no guesswork required. The reference for adding the resistor for resistive throttles should be valid as well, regardless of controller type. I don't know about your controller and motor, but assuming they are working it seems like the procedure in the post will work for throttle out as well - again, no guesswork required. Have these procedures failed for you?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Dec 02 2012 5:32pm

Green Machine wrote:THanks for all the help guys. So it seems i have all the wires connected properly...

And now it is just software programming to get the right settings with the throttle in and out....pretty frustrating.

Can anyone with a castle controller and astro motor give me a hint on what their throttle in and out settings are?


At this point i will use a magura resistor throttle or a hall throttle....whatever it takes to not spend the day trying to get the settings just right.
I use a hall effect 1/2 grip throttle. I have a pair of them from MethTek, and their high and low values on Throttle In are nearly identical. I also have two CAv3's which get swapped back and forth from time to time. I use these settings, and however the throttles & CA's mix & match, it all works well.

The low value is 0.89 IIRC and the high 4.18, so I set Throttle In on the CA to be Min Input = 1.00 and Max Input = 4.00. I set throttle fault to 4.40. I set throttle control mode to Pass-thru.

For Throttle out: Output mode = RC, Min output = 0.90, max output = 2.00. This is for a stock wind Astro 3210. I dialed Up Ramp way down, to try to stop the spontaneous wheelies - but I found that I had to change parameters in the HV-160 to effectively "take the edge off" the acceleration. I don't recall the setting, but it's pretty intuitive.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Dec 02 2012 11:40pm

Thanks guys,

THanks to your help I got it to work.

The issue was i had it set to "current" instead of "pass through".

The issue I can't seem to solve now is that the castle controller is giving the 5 beep error code continuously now when the bike is turned on.

It wasn't doing this when i was using the bike with a servo tester.

As always any hints on how to solve this would be appreciated.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Dec 05 2012 8:14am

Green Machine wrote:...The issue I can't seem to solve now is that the castle controller is giving the 5 beep error code continuously now when the bike is turned on.
Funny you bring that up. I just noticed that at the end of my commute (either going in to work or home) my HV-160 is giving me the 5 beeps... Guess I gotta check the log. I haven't noticed an impact on bike performance though...
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Dec 06 2012 10:38am

Yeah the beeping on its own stopped...but comes back intermittently. I am not sure what it is but as you said it does not affect the performance of the bike so I am not too worried.

Overall i am extremely impressed with this solution of using the CA as a throttle, and after going through installing it is extremely clean and nice looking. Not as easy as hooking up a servo tester but well worth the effort I would say. I like that the CA gives a graphic throttle in indicator which is nice for troubleshooting.

Next problem I am having is the astro motor on a jittery start up seems to trigger the battery BMS, shutting the bike down. Then i have to recycle the power.

IT would be nice if i could limit the amps only on start up....can you guys point me in the direction of which function to program, where in this thread to read up on that function etc. You guys have been a tremendous help and I thank you.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 06 2012 11:04am

Green Machine wrote:Next problem I am having is the astro motor on a jittery start up seems to trigger the battery BMS, shutting the bike down. Then i have to recycle the power.

IT would be nice if i could limit the amps only on start up....can you guys point me in the direction of which function to program, where in this thread to read up on that function etc.
This is described briefly in sections 11.1.2 and 13 of the post referenced earlier. Perhaps 13 deserves a lengthier description for clarity...

In short - reduce the ThrO->UpRamp setting (999=immediate, 001=super slow). This will damp increasing current changes (like on startup) so the bike will pull away smoothly with reduced then increasing power. For your situation, you want a relatively large value for ThrO->DownRamp so closing the throttle has a pretty immediate effect.

EDIT - Added some description to section 13 as noted above - a bit clearer now, I think.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Dec 06 2012 11:23am

Green Machine wrote:Yeah the beeping on its own stopped...but comes back intermittently. I am not sure what it is but as you said it does not affect the performance of the bike so I am not too worried.
This got me thinking, I really ought to try to get smart about that. I connected my laptop to the HV-160 last night, (upgraded the firmware.) and looked at the settings and the log. I couldn't make much sense of the log, so I cleared it out - I'll look again tonight and have only my am and pm commutes to focus on. Maybe the data will tell me what is triggering the "5 beeps".
Green Machine wrote:Not as easy as hooking up a servo tester but well worth the effort I would say. I like that the CA gives a graphic throttle in indicator which is nice for troubleshooting.
+1 to that!
Green Machine wrote:Next problem I am having is the astro motor on a jittery start up seems to trigger the battery BMS, shutting the bike down. Then i have to recycle the power.

IT would be nice if i could limit the amps only on start up....can you guys point me in the direction of which function to program, where in this thread to read up on that function etc. You guys have been a tremendous help and I thank you.
Use the Castle Link software to tweak parameters of the controller. I was running with a "Throttle Response" setting of 2 until yesterday, but dropped that to 1 because I can still wheelie the bike if I hit the throttle hard (as a commuter bike, I simply don't want wheelies!) There's also a setting under the "motor" tab I think that allows you to give the motor a "soft start". That might help. Their documentation is not very good, and diggicult to find: http://www.castlecreations.com/support/ ... _Guide.pdf
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 06 2012 12:17pm

MattyCiii wrote:I dialed Up Ramp way down, to try to stop the spontaneous wheelies - but I found that I had to change parameters in the HV-160 to effectively "take the edge off" the acceleration. I don't recall the setting, but it's pretty intuitive.
MattyCiii wrote:Use the Castle Link software to tweak parameters of the controller. I was running with a "Throttle Response" setting of 2 until yesterday, but dropped that to 1 because I can still wheelie the bike if I hit the throttle hard (as a commuter bike, I simply don't want wheelies!) There's also a setting under the "motor" tab I think that allows you to give the motor a "soft start".
MCiii- Hmmm - I located the earlier post where you mentioned that dialing down UpRamp was ineffective. With no RC motor experience, I'm trying to get a handle on the ESC/motor characteristics and needed/preferred settings. What was the lowest UpRamp setting you tried that didn't work well and what was the associated ESC Throttle Response setting? Were you unable to get a slow controlled pull-away or was the throttle response too sluggish by the time you achieved it? Also, what UpRamp are you using now with the Throttle Response setting of 1? Thanks!
(BTW - dazzling build you have going there! :D )
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Dec 06 2012 1:57pm

teklektik wrote:
MattyCiii wrote:I dialed Up Ramp way down, to try to stop the spontaneous wheelies - but I found that I had to change parameters in the HV-160 to effectively "take the edge off" the acceleration. I don't recall the setting, but it's pretty intuitive.
MattyCiii wrote:Use the Castle Link software to tweak parameters of the controller. I was running with a "Throttle Response" setting of 2 until yesterday, but dropped that to 1 because I can still wheelie the bike if I hit the throttle hard (as a commuter bike, I simply don't want wheelies!) There's also a setting under the "motor" tab I think that allows you to give the motor a "soft start".
MCiii- Hmmm - I located the earlier post where you mentioned that dialing down UpRamp was ineffective. With no RC motor experience, I'm trying to get a handle on the ESC/motor characteristics and needed/preferred settings. What was the lowest UpRamp setting you tried that didn't work well and what was the associated ESC Throttle Response setting? Were you unable to get a slow controlled pull-away or was the throttle response too sluggish by the time you achieved it? Also, what UpRamp are you using now with the Throttle Response setting of 1? Thanks!
Yes I should clarify. IIRC, I did get the CAv3 up ramp to take the edge off once I got it down to about 30. Sadly I can't check/experiment presently, the left button on my main CA died last week and my spare CAv3 is tied up on the other project (I have a replacement button on order...).

But more on point: Like LVC protection, it's a good idea to have layers of protection. If I were to go about this methodically (which I will, some day...), I'd dial the CAv3 UpRamp up to 999 & experiment with HV-160 Throttle Response setting to the acceleration is comfortable. Then, I'd temporarily bump the HV-160 response up awhile and figure out the best CAv3 UpRamp setting. With these settings in hand, I'd lock them in to the devices...
teklektik wrote:(BTW - dazzling build you have going there! )
Thanks very much! The quality & loving care you put into your bike is one of the things that inspires me to build my A-Line to such high standards. I specifically plan to plagiarize from you on rear lighting/signals.
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 06 2012 3:12pm

Thanks MCiii - very helpful!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bartimaeus » Dec 08 2012 1:05am

Just to let you guys know I've posted a windows program for displaying and datalogging the telemetry for the cycle analyst. you can find it here:
https://github.com/Bartimaeus-/Cycle_Dash_for_Windows

To run the program you just have to download the .zip file and extract it anywhere and run the Cycle_Dash.exe file.

There should be more discussion for it here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 4&start=15

Feedback would be stupendous.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Dec 08 2012 4:31pm

Hi Bartimeus,

I downloaded and looked at the dashboard. Looks nice. However, at this moment it is of little use to me, because it needs my computer. I rather use the cycle analogger, which also captures all other parameters, and adds some nice NMEA GPS data plus 2 thermistor inputs.

I think that at this moment, it is nice for people without analogger to do some bench testing. I do not think any one is going to bring a laptop on the trails. As soon as your endeavors include wireless telemetry with multiple temp sensors, I think most ES hotrodders will be all over you.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Bartimaeus » Dec 08 2012 5:10pm

Well, I haven't done anything with *multiple* temp sensors, and I wasn't going to post this because I didn't think anyone would be interested, but I made a simple temperature logger based on the code for the Cycle Dash as extra credit for one of my college classes:
Image

It wouldn't be too difficult to add a feature to support as many additional inputs as you wanted for the program. The user would simply be directed to "add another data element", and assign their own labels/units. And from there support for saving templates would follow. Then you could have any type of sensor you wanted working with the program.

At this point I'm going to focus on the software side of things and make it so it can be compatible with whatever hardware you want to come up with. There's definitely limits to a computer based program like this, which is why I'm also working on an Android app. And for people like me who would ride their ebike for commuting and need to bring their laptop anyway this could be a nice way to save ~$150.

It would also be possible to retrieve the data live from the Cycle Analogger if Justin wanted to have it print out the data over TTL when it goes to store to the micro SD card. Obviously you could just use the micro sd card slot, but that doesn't really help much for wireless telemetry ;)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Dec 09 2012 3:59am

Just managed to get my CAv3 working. Long story short, it is a great piece of work. Thanks very much to Justin and his team for creating and improving the CA, and to Teklektik for the great guidance. These two have become so intertwined with each other, because I couldn't have done it without either.

Installation
Went smooth. I checked the color code for the CA's throttle in, and it was the same as my single hall sensor half grip twist throttle. I checked that the green Tho wire from the CA was indeed green at the CA's DP connector. Then I moved it to a separate throttle connector, connected to the controller. I checked that the red and black wires were indeed battery+ and ground, and then connected the CA DP connector to the controller. Also connected the cromotor's thermistor to the CA. I left my ebrakes connected directly to the controller.

I also took a transparent plastic bag, put the CA in it completely, and taped it in place. This should provide for an extra shield when used in heavy rain. We will see if it holds the water/moisture out.

Flashing
My CAv3 still had B13. I used the old flashtool to get up to B19. All was well. Then I flashed to B21, and immediately voltage was all over the place (350V etc). I flashed back to B20, same issue. Flashed back to B19 and all was well again (80V). Downloaded the newest flashtool, and flashed to B21. All was well. I don't know what the differences are, but for B20 and B21 I would sure recommend the newest flashtool. It is anyway the most convenient flashtool. Thanks for that!

Configuration
It is still a bit of a pain to map the throttle correctly. Even with Teklektik guidance, it is very easy to make a mistake. In my view it is obligatory to put the bike on a stand so that the motor can freewheel, preventing the bike from taking off when you make a mistake. I made mistakes, and only because the motor could freewheel no harm was done. I now have everything setup for power-throttle.

At 72V LVC and a maximum current of 100A, I reckoned that my maximum power at LVC would be 7kW. Therefore, I put 7kW as power limit. Throttle ramp up and down are both at 999. Wgain is at 5, and I will gradually increase it while testing in real life when longing for more punch. Under no-load conditions, my cromotor now reaches Vmax (86.6kmh) within 8 seconds, and the CA shows maximum power of 5kW while accelerating.

I love the multiple presets. I have only one battery, so at this moment don't need the multiple batteries. Can't wait to try it out in real life commuting after the weekend.

Conclusions
I love it. I love the power throttle, I love the temperature limits, I love the ramp up / wgain features, I love the datalogging using the analogger, I love the multiple presets, and I love being able to switch between them during a ride. Thanks Justing and team for creating such a wonderful piece of bike computer, and thanks again to Teklektik for providing the guidance that actually enabled me to use it.

Recommendations
I would love to see a GUI on a computer that enables one to quickly change the CA configuration while having the bike on a test bench connected using the TTL-USB cable. The button-pressing exercise is appropriate for the little machine, but it gets old very quickly.

If there would be a sort of test routine, where the CA would automatically recognize the throttle-controller-motor relationship under predefined conditions, it would make it much more user friendly. I would imagine that under no-load conditions, given a gentle slow turning of the throttle over the full range, the measured full range throttle input in pass-through mode, and the measured motor velocity over the full range of throttle input, there are enough parameters to adjust the CA output accordingly.

I still long for more configurable points on the throttle curve. At this moment, there are about 4 modifiable points:
1 - zero throttle input with zero CA output (no action)
2 - near minimum throttle input with minimum CA output (start motor)
3 - near maximum throttle input with maximum CA output (maximum power to the motor)
4 - maximum throttle input with maximum CA output (prevent throttle wire break)

I think it would be great to have either an exponential curve between points 2 and 3 going either way to make the throttle curve more or less sensitive,
or have an additional 2 or 3 adjustable points between point 2 and 3, to change the curve at will.

This would allow for an almost fully adjustable throttle curve, compensating for both single hall effect, dual hall effect and other throttles.
Henk


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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Dec 09 2012 10:44am

hjns- Congrats on the install! Thanks for the generous words - but I'm just trying to lend a bit of support for Justin's amazing product until the official doc catches up.

Also - great feedback! Thanks for all the thought and details. I will make additions to the setup notes to reflect your observations.

I think you will benefit from a much lower UpRamp setting - I use 032 to protect my gear motors from startup WOT and MCiii reported having success with 030 for a certain HV-160 RC setup. It would be very interesting to see what settings work with monster DDs like yours. It's not possible to put 'best' settings out there for ramping, but hints for different situations might be useful as starting points for tweaking.

BTW - I updated the ramping config notes yesterday; I actually did this the first time a few days ago in response to GM's config questions, but seem to have neglected to press SUBMIT after proofing the edits :oops:.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by MattyCiii » Dec 09 2012 12:39pm

teklektik wrote:I use 032 to protect my gear motors from startup WOT and MCiii reported having success with 030 for a certain HV-160 RC setup.
Yeah in testing my new bike I had up ramp set to 010 (being very conservative, exploring the quirks of the new ride). By the end of testing I bumped it up to 020. Gave me a nice feel of acceleration pull. Nice that I can slowly dial in more liveliness going to 021, 022...
1st build: Dahon Jetstream folding bike. Quick, reliable, capable of 32mph. Light enough to lift, folds for easy transport by car/bus/train.
2nd build: RC powered 2009 Norco A-Line. Top speed 39mph. Built like a tank, it's resistant to Boston potholes, can stop on a dime, easily goes up/down curbs when necessary.
3rd build (just started): Scratch build ultimate utility bike. Based on a common power module using a NuVinci left side freewheel.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Dec 09 2012 3:04pm

Hi both,

Yeah, I have been thinking about the ramp up and Wgain values a lot. However, I am not sure that lowering the ramp up would help me here. The whole idea of the power-throttle is to have the actual power under direct control. Lowering the ramp up values would give me a delay in response, resulting in lower power initially, and I would rather just turn the throttle less to achieve lower power. If I want high power, I turn the throttle wide open, and I expect then an immediate reaction. If I want lower power, that still gives me a nice acceleration, I just turn the throttle less.

Anyway, I will play with the settings, and do some GPS assisted data logging as well. I will do a couple of rides on the same 20% hill, and take note of the results. Hopefully this week.
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Dec 10 2012 2:17pm

I use a cheap 10k thermistor. Bought 20 of them on Ebay for almost nothing.


OK, so here is the reality check.

What I wrote in the previous post is old. Doing my commute today indeed initiated me to lower the ramp up value from 999 to 700. Have not tried lower, but the slower ramp up of power is indeed very nice. Especially in traffic, I don't have to be so careful with the throttle. The throttle now behaves even more like a gas pedal in the car, with a delayed response from the motor.

On my way back from the office to home, I spent 30Wh/km, Vmax 72kmh with an average of 35kmh, Amax 70A, Amin -27A, over a total distance of 18km that took 28 minutes. This is the normal commute without any real hills. Over the week, I will gently try some more settings. You could say I am still in the CAv3 honeymoon phase...... :mrgreen:

edit: I could have sworn someone put a post asking what kind of thermistor to use....
Henk


All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Dec 13 2012 3:56am

I am having a sudden problem with my v3 running an rc set up. After working well for 3 days its giving me a problem. Its now giving me a 2700 watt reading when standing still....i think this is reading as a negative 2700 watt reading because the bike is showing a negative amp hour reading.

I checked the shunt resistor value and it is still set for 1.0 mohm

I have reset the cycle analyst and unplugged and then plugged back in power.

Still is acting up.

Anybody have any ideas?

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Alan B » Dec 13 2012 9:40am

Sounds like the shunt zero offset setting has been corrupted, so perhaps redoing the zero function would clear that up.

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Green Machine   100 kW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Green Machine » Dec 13 2012 1:17pm

Alan B wrote:Sounds like the shunt zero offset setting has been corrupted, so perhaps redoing the zero function would clear that up.
I think i tried this...do you mean playing with the shunt calibration setting? I played with the shunt mohm setting.

Now the mohm shunt value is going haywire.

I reset it to 0, and when i leave set up I still get faulty watt reading again, go back into set up and somehow the shunt number has been reset to 20.0. Reset it to 0 or 1.0 and error repeats.

I dont know what to do now..should i reflash the cycle analyst?

Will I lose all my settings for the throttle in throttle out?

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