Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines/FW

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines/FW

Post by amberwolf » May 18 2012 4:34am

EDIT: Added pointers to various parts of the review:

Initial receipt and opening of kit:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 57#p583257
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 26#p583426

Installation and comments on various parts:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 73#p583873
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 52#p584352

Internal pics of controller and Fusin Display Unit during what turned out to be unnecessary troubleshooting:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 66#p584366

Initial test ride and comments:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 78#p584378

PAS setup and other comments and test ride:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 70#p585370

Diagnosis of how Fusin Display Unit (analyst) battery meter works:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 96#p585896

Work commute with power level 1:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 32#p585832
Includes various comments on issues with kit (mostly the Fusin Display unit).

Work commute with power level 2 (partial charge):
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 17#p586317

Work commute with power level 2:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 95#p586695

Work commute with power level 3:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 36#p587136

Work commute with power level 4:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 63#p587563

Work commute with power level 5:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 53#p588153

This is going to be a bit of a hybrid thread, in that it is both a build thread and a review thread for a motor/controller kti from Fusin (as described in this thread here:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =3&t=38825

The actual kit hasn't arrived yet (is at Customs in San Francisco as of noon PST on 5-17-12), but is expected by beginning of next week at the latest. Once it's here I'll have pictures of the actual parts; until then Louispower has pics posted in the above thread.

The only thing not included with the review kit is a battery pack; I have several kinds I can try with it, but I will probably use RC LiPo because it is small and light and modular, so I can add Ah as needed for range, and start with a small ammo-can 14s2p pack,
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 42#p536242
for 10Ah, 58.3V fully charged. I will likely also use a Methods' LVC/HVC monitoring system on the packs, and reviewing that here, too, as a secondary function.


The new motor is rated 1000W peak, and is capable of up to 40KPH in a 26" wheel. It has disc brake mounts on the left side, and most importantly it has a cassette spline with internal freewheel built in, instead of the old-style thread-on freewheel. AFAIK it should support up to a 9-speed cassette. Supposed to fit a 135mm dropout.

The controller is PAS capable, and there are several modes it can use the motor in. Per Louispower at Fusin:
We limit the controller current under 18A, with that when the intput power is 850w(17.71A), the measured output power is 675W, efficiency is about 80%. In the test video the battery's max discharge current is 14.9A, the analyst shows 720w at most, means the output power is 576w.
There is a handlebar display for speedo, battery level, power level (presumably how much current or wattage is being drawn by the motor), time (dunno yet if its' a clock or a trip-time counter, or what), error codes, etc. SHould be interesting to see this, as it would be a great improvement in information availability during a ride from what is supplied by most manufacturers. Probably not as much info as a Cycle Analyst can give, but it should be enough for most people's purposes.

Since Fusin used Shimano integrated brake/shifter levers in their testing, I am also going to do that, as I have a set I got a while back for a couple bucks at BuildABike off their used parts rack. Fusin has ebrake sensors intended to mount on existing brakes, rather than having to use their own brake levers. This should be a really nice feature, as it's been problematic on various people's builds when they have hydraulic brakes or whtnot and can't easily use the supplied ebrake levers form whatever kit they got.
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I have a number of possible bikes I coudl put it on. DayGlo Avenger (with the older style front Fusin) is one candidate, but I would have to take off the cargo pod and rack to do it, as I want access to the motor for various things during testing, including any possible roadside repairs I might need to make (unlikely, but hey, it's me and it happens a lot so I figure I should be prepared :lol:).

Nishik-E is also possible, but it is what I want to try a very light chain drive in so it will likely leave it alone for now.

The Velcro Eclipse doesnt' have anything on it right now, but it also is not fully together. Same for the Schwinn Sierra. If I have to put a bike together, I might as well do it with a full-suspension bike, which will be the first one I have ever had to ride. Should make the commute nicer on the roads around here. :)

So...I'll be starting out with this Diamondback Coil.
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The frame, cranks, and chain all came together from Mdd0127 a few months ago, and I have been pondering how I might use it. It's aluminum, but the rear swingarm is steel. It doesn't have disc brake mounts there yet, but being steel it's easy to add them. :) Plus I can also use rim brakes, if the rim the motor comes in is made for that (probably). Then I will have dual rear brakes--helpful since I won't have any regen braking with this motor, as it is a geared with internal freewheel. Placeholder wheel for figuring out settings and geometry is the rear from the Schwinn Sierra.
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The fork is an old 2005-ish Manitou Skareb I got on a mishmash-parts bike a while back, mostly made of worn-out junk but the frame was ok (it is now part of my newest bike-in-progress to repalce CrazyBike2 eventually), and the fork could use a rebuild but it does appear to operate almost normally. I need to re-air the shock up , as it has leaked since I last did so. It only has about 20-30mm travel left afer I get on the bike right now, but it shoudl be 100mm I think. I need to re-find my PDF manual I found for it and re-set it up. If I can't get it to work, I can use a Suntour M2000 fork I got for a few bucks at BuildABike aroudn the same time I got those shifter/brake controls--it is identical to one Mdd0127 gave me that is now on CrazyBike2, and that I welded a disc-brake mount to. But I'd rather try this one out first, as I have yet to use it on a bike, and am curious if I can make it work.

The wheel I want to use is a 24", whcih means it wont' work with the rim brakes
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so I will need to make a disc-caliper-mounting bracket. it has the rear-post holes for one, just not the bracket itself, and the regular ISO on'es require a side-facing mount hole tab this one doesn't have. Shouldn't be too tough, but I have to find the material to do it and then the time.
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There isn't much clearance for the disc, either.
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It's just a 160mm rotor, originaly from AussieJester's custom trike. :) I have a 180, too, but its' not ISO holes, so I'd have to drill/file them out like I did with the one on CrazyBike2. Already too much work to do on this bike, so I'll pass for now. I still have to find mounting bolts for the disc, too.
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The steerer is a little short for this headtube, but it might be ok. :? We'll see, after I actually get everything moutned tight and all. At least the clamping part of the stem is below the top edge of the tube. I have a cap to screw into it somewhere, but haven't found it yet. (it has taken several days of spare moments to get even this much stuff located and together!).
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Handlebars came off a Specialized bike with a cracked seatstay--an ex-coworker abandoned the bike here more than a couple of years ago, and I have not heard from him since then; so assuming I am never going to, and that he didnt' really care about the bike enough to even pick it up, it's getting parted out. I wanted to use the adjustable stem, too, but it is for a threaded headset. I may still be able to use it on here, but I have to get the little star-inset out of the steerer first; not entirely sure I can. Until then, I'll just use this regular stem from Goodwill. Can't remember the price; it's worn off the tag.

Cassette will come off an old Suntour hub, unless it doesn't fit the splines or lockring threads. It's a 7-speed.
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IF it won't fit I'l luse the 8 or 9 speed off the SPecialized
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I gotta find the right diameter seatpost, though, cuz all the ones I ran across so far are way too small or way too big.
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I also wanna change the crankset, partly cuz it's heavy steel, and I want to take as much weight off the bike as I can since I am adding the ebike stuff. Partly cuz I prefer the ovoid rings as they help my knees a little compared to round ones. One hope is to use this bike for light-rail trips down to Aerican Foods, out in Mesa, as well as a friend's house that is out that way. So it needs to be light enough for me to lift and stuff if necessary. Sure, I can just pedal-bike there, but it'd be nice to have the opton to ride further than my knees allow...or carry a little cargo back with me besides a single small backpack-on-a-rack.
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So I have these old aluminum cranks and chainrings, but I have to find mounting botls to put them together. They didnt' come with any, in a junk box from someone else.
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For the possibility of cargo, I have some old baskets for front and rear I used to use on what later became DayGlo Avenger. The rear ones will have to be modified to work on a full-suspension bike, so they mount to the frame and not hte dropouts, so those won't go on there at first. Dunno where they are so no poics yet.

That's all for now, until I get more done on the bike or the kit arrives.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by deVries » May 18 2012 6:17am

When you get the time, here are the questions I hope to get answered. I realize this will be awhile from now, since you don't even have the motor yet. :D
louispower wrote:
GrayKard wrote:Might be nice to have a faster "offroad" wind for the US market. Although two of the slow wind motors on my slow trail bike would be a nice replacement for my "Cute" motors when the gears finally give out.

Gary, the motor's peak speed could reaches 45kph with 26" wheel, the analyst has a function to adjust the wheel size setup and top speed limitation.
1) If someone wants to push your motor to the limits and not use your "analyst" controller, then can you sell just the motor with no "analyst" controller? :?:

2) Will this motor work well with another controller for higher voltage & amps? :?:

3) What would be the highest voltage & amps the motor could withstand for 10 minutes continuous? :?:

4) Same question (above) except for 5 minutes continuous? :?:

5) What is the internal gear ratio? :?: What material is the gears? Nylon or :?:

Thank you Louis and/or AmberWolf. :)

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 19 2012 2:42pm

I don't have time to do anything with it till after work, but it showed up today around 11am. I opened the box and got pics of all the bits, but details will have to wait till tonight.
DSC06458.JPG (37.63 KiB) Viewed 16020 times
One major thing Fusin will need to fix is their packing. This motor's axle is too long for the box it was shipped in, and was poking out the side when it arrived. My guess is that a front motor would fit right in there fine wiht room to spare, but not a rear.
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There is some damage to the outer cable insulation jacket, but probably not thru into the wires. Can't tell for sure. No axle damage except scratches, at first glance.
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Sadly, even that could probably have been prevented even with the packing failure, but the little rubber cover Fusin has made for the axle ends was not over the axle, but rather simply slid on the cable partway down. It's possible it came loose in shipping, after the axle went thru the box side, but it fits pretty tightly when pressed on, so it might've stayed on if it had been fitted. The rubber cover for the other end of the axle was not installed either, and was in the headlight accessories compartment of the box.
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Some interesting things to note:

--they appear to be using thread-on covers, instead of bolt-on like previous versions. I am not sure but I think only the cassette-side cover comes off. That side is not tightened down, as it turned when I had my hand on the cover picking up the wheel. I haven't tried taking it off, but a little video showing the turning:

--They've gone to a tiny little plug that will fit thru the axle hardware for phase and data wires. (see pics below) Note that it has enough pins to carry both hall and phase wires, but I don't think they're using hall sensors in this motor, just an internal (probably hall) speed sensor for their handlebar display, which probably senses the outer casing speed, not motor speed.
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--one bad thing: They've added disc brake capability, but it does not use a standard ISO--they've got a funky slotted disc with clamping plate. Must be some internal-to-the-casing reason why they couldn't use a normal ISO mount ring. :( Means you can't replace the disc once you wear it out, unless you order one from them or wherever they got it from.
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Rest is just pics for now, with more pics to be uploaded when I come back:
(EDIT: am back now and have edited inline comments for pics)

Kit is fairly light, at 18lbs including the box it came in.
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It's fairly typical packing from what I have seen so far of others, with the accessories packed in compartments around the wheel. But note that the wheel is a lot smaller than the space allotted for it, so it was able to move around a lot. This probably contributed to the axle-thru-box-side problem, but there isn't more than half an inch (if even that much) between the end of the axle and the outside world anyway. Needs at least a couple of inches, realistically, given how stuff gets treated in shipping. Note the disk rotor is inserted between the spokes, which keeps it in place pretty well. With the motor/wheel rattling around in the box that's probably safer than having it installed, where it could get bent up from side-loading/impacts.
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This kit also has a PAS. Unfortunatley like all the others I've seen, you must take your crank off to install it. That requires a special tool, or a bike shop. I have the tool, but most people won't. This is the sensor, to slip over the BB shell:
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Then the magnet ring, to slip over the BB shaft. This one looks like it's been installed before (probably on the red test bike in Fusin's original thread), but I suppose those could be manufacturing marks. Doesn't matter to me, since a new kit anyone else would order would be all new parts, I'm sure.
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This is their new inline ebrake switch. The one thing I dislike about it is that the only way to install it is to undo your brake cable, and then pass it thru this sensor. The sensor will need to be placed on a section without housing, or at the end of a section of housing.
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This is their new controller, which appears to be fairly well-sealed against direct water entry, though like most things it probably isn't totally waterproof. Being in Phoenix AZ, that doesnt' much matter to me. ;) It's marked with the following ratings:
Rated Voltage: 48V
Maximum Current: 18A
Rated Current: 9A
Low Voltage Protection: 34V
Throttle Adjustment Voltage: 1.2v-4.4V
Nice to know it's actual LVC; that's not on most controllers I've seen. What would be nice, though, is to have the *actual* voltage range given, since a 48V pack can be anything up to or over 60V depending on what chemistry you use.
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The connectors are fairly typical: JST-types for small-signal wires, and automotive-appearing bullets for phase wires, which go into a cable that has that special tiny connector on the end of it for the motor end. Same connectors for the battery, too. I'm replacing those with Andersons, though, as that's what I have on my packs, and I don't have any of those bullets laying around in usable condition (just stuff off old car wiring harnesses). All other connectors I will leave as they are for testing/review.
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Throttle is different from what I've seen on Fusins before. This one is contoured,, full-length twist throttle with integrated 3-speed switch.
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But 3 of the wires are cut at the controller end of the cable, but I don't know whether the throttle or the 3-speed switch is the one left unconnected. Guess I'll find out when I get it on the bike. :)
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One thing it comes with that Iv'e never seen with a kit before is a physical lock, presumably for the disc rotor. The plastic clamps are what is used to mount the headlight.
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Same key fits the power switch in the headlight/power meter:
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The kit also comes with a taillight; IIRC in previous kits this also lit brighter for a brake light. In previous kits the reflector behind the red lens is a YELLOW one, apparently the same kind usually used in a pedal reflector. Being yellow behind a red filter means not much of the light coming in will actually be reflected out, which makes it much less useful than you'd think. A red reflector would be a much better idea. We'll see what they actually used on this kit later. Same for the LEDs--on previous kits they were white LEDs, which means only a small portion of the light they produce will ever make it out of the red cover. Using red LEDs would be much smarter, especially since very very bright red ones would probably be cheaper than white ones that arent' even as bright *before* the red cover is over them.

Note that Fusin doesn't actually make the lighting stuff for the bike--that's all made by Wuxing. Still, whoever designed them and decided which parts to use in there needs to do a little research. ;)
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There's also a mult-function control cluster, which has the horn button (the horn on previous ones was just a quiet buzzer inside the headlight, perhaps useful on a quiet pedestrian/bike/multiuse path away from roads, assuming no one is wearing headphones...bike bells are usually much louder. We'll see if this is the same.). There is also a headlight switch, which has a little magnified "on" "off" indication, shown in the two positions below (off top, on bottom). There is what is likely meant to be a turn signal switch, too, but I don't know if it's used in this kit. I haven't traced any of the wiring yet. If it isn't being used, I will use it to activate my own turn signals when I get those built and installed on the bike.
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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 20 2012 1:30am

Back home now, so here's the rest of the pics from earlier, with comments, and I have also gone back to the previous post and added comments to those pictures as well. Still working on the bike itself, so not sure when I will get to test it's first power-up.

Fusin disc brake rotor with it's capture plate and screws sitting on it about how they will go on the wheel.
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Note the shiny edge of the rotor? Well, it looks an awful lot like the one actually used on their test bike here, although it is possible that all these rotors already have the outer edge polished like that. Doesn't bother me if it *is* the same one; it's just funny if it is.
motor installed on the bike5.jpg
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Here's my 160mm ISO standard rotor, sitting between the Fusin clamp plate and the Fusin rotor. You can see the BCD is pretty different between the two--even more different than the other non-ISO rotors I have and have seen. The bolt hole diameter is still the same, just the diameter of the circle they're arranged in is much larger on the Fusin rotor (and motor).
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The ISO rotor easily fits over the bearing cup/etc on that end of the motor; it just doesn't have any holes it could be bolted to. I suppose a "top hat" adapter could be made between the Fusin motor bolt holes and the ISO rotor ones, should I ever need a new rotor. It *might* even be possible to take an old disc-mountable regular bike hub, and cut the entire spoke flange/disc mount off the end, then drill out the spoke flange in six places to bolt it to the Fusin motor's mounts. The center would probably have to be drilled out, unless taking all the bearing stuff out of the hub leaves enough room for the axle and whatnot to stick thru. Then you'd have a place to bolt a normal ISO rotor.
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The mounting face of the motor for the disc rotor--the rotor sits flush against the motor face, and there are six risers about as thick as the rotor, with a bolt hole in the center of each.
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There is one thing I'll have to work out when I get to assembling the kit to the bike--the disc clamping plate does not appear to fit correctly into the slots in the rotor. It may require some vise-clamping to get it to pop in, or even some filing. It's definitely not quite plug-and-play for the non-mechanically-inclined.
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The lacing is like most of the ones I've seen so far: not as good as it could be, probably done on a machine with no one checking the results. :( None of it is that big a deal, and all easily fixed by anyone that can lace a wheel. If you were having this installed by your bike shop, they could redo the lacing in a jiffy.

The spokes are not laced under-over, so they have nothing to tension them during side-loads. They just go straight from spoke flange to rim nipple. Cheaper and easier to lace, but not as strong a wheel.
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The typical mistake of lacing the valve hole in the wrong spot, too:
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The nipples vs the eyelets are so large (as usual, for 12G) plus the angle caused by the size of the hub that they end up forcing the typical bend at the exit of the nipple.
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Using smaller spokes/nipples would help this a little bit, or using rims with holes/eyelets that "dome" inward toward the hub, allowing the nipple to seat at whatever angle is needed.

Rim itself appears to be identical to both of the older Fusins I have here, and it's an ok double-wall wider rim by Champion. But I can tell you from experience with the older Fusin laced the same way in the same rim--if you somehow ever end up with the wheel sideways skidding to a stop and it bumps on something giving it a high side-load, it's probably gonna severely bend the rim. This is probably true for most actual rims, but I expect a good lace job would help prevent it or at least minimize the damage.
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THis is the new Fusin handle bar display, which has clamps that slide over the bars.
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I have not yet checked to see if they open up far enough to put on the bars without taking everything else off. Hopefully they do, because there are some handelbar shapes you couldn't put them on otherwise.
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Axle-mounting hardware is the same on both ends; this is the stuff off the brake side (left). Torque washer, standard washer, and a fairly normal-looking nut.
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All of them except the torque washer will easily slide over the connector plug, and even that could be fixed with just a *little* sanding of the plug housing, if that was ever an issue.
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Rubber endcap to put over the brake-side axle hardware.
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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 20 2012 2:15am

Now for the bike it's to go on: I got it to the point of being able to take it on a quick pedal test ride, but only in the street around my house, as I still have no front brake. OTOH, the rear brake I can nicely modulate or lock it up and leave ugly skid marks on the pavement, if I like, even from low speeds. That's just using the Tektro arms and pads I got for a couple bucks at BuildABike off their junk shelf a while back, along with those Shimano Vbrake/trigger-shifter levers, and an old cable and housing off of some other junk bike. If I could put those on the front, I'd be pretty happy with that kind of performance--but unless I could make adapters to extend the mounting points for the pads downward an inch, to work with the 24" rim vs the 26" fork-brake-studs, it ain't gonna happen.
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I also found only one kickstand that will work, as this frame has no place to mount one near the cranks. But it probably won't fit with the motor installed, especially with the disc rotor:
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So I'll likley have to weld a mounting plate for a kickstand to the swingarm, forward of the wheel but behind the cranks.

I also found out why this wheel (from my Schwinn Sierra) was in my "needs repair" closet stack. I'd forgotten that a problem with brake pad alignment or something like that when it was on the Sierra ripped thru the tire.
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So I need to patch and/or sew the sidewall of the tire itself in order to use it, or else the tube is gonna finish herniating out of it and either just burst, or will get cut by the brake pads if i keep the rim brakes (which I probably will since they work so well).

I also got the heavier steel cranks/chainrings changed out for the alloy ovoid ones that help my knees, after I managed to find all the necessary special screws to put them together with. Of course, now that it is nicely installed, I have to take it completely off again to install the PAS sensor. I think I am going to install that on the left side instead, since I do still have to take that crank off and swap it out. It took some doing to get this one off and on, and then to adjust the derailer correctly. I used cable and housings original to this bike to set it up with the trigger shifter.
DSC06450.JPG (61.33 KiB) Viewed 15999 times

Speaking of derailers, I took the one off the Specialized, and hooked it up using it's original cable to the trigger shifter. I did use the housings from this bike, though, as they were already the right lengths. It is a 7-speed shifter, and an 8-speed derailer, and a 6-speed freewheel cluster, so it doesn't exactly shift perfectly. It should work fine once the motor is installed, though, as it will then have the correct cassette with the right chainring spacing.
DSC06451.JPG (56.79 KiB) Viewed 15999 times

The seat...man, I cannot find the right seatpost for this frame, which should be impossible as I have about 3 or 4 DOZEN seatposts here somewhere, of all different sizes and kinds. For the test ride I just shimmed it with some aluminum flashing saved from the re-roofing last year. It isn't perfect but at least the seat doesnt' flop around by itself or fall out, but it won't secure it tight enough to not rotate when I'm on it, or to hold it up at a height above gravity's default. I put a reflector on there so it's clamp raises the seat a little, but it will need the right seatpost to actually be able to adjust it properly.
DSC06452.JPG (44.44 KiB) Viewed 15999 times

Now, for batteyr mounts, I am probably gonna have to put it in front of the frame, either mounted to the headtube or to the fork/handlebars. Headtube would be better, so it isn't swivelling with the fork, but I'll take either one to sticking it on a rack. :lol:

For headtube mounting, I happen to have *one* U-bolt that is the right diameter to go perfectly round the headtube.
DSC06453.JPG (49.57 KiB) Viewed 15999 times
But it's threaded part is not long enough to allow bolting thru much of a thickness of metal for the bracket itself--certainly not enough for a washer or plate to spread the loading.
DSC06454.JPG (43.13 KiB) Viewed 15999 times
The U-bolt I have with long enough threads (saved from the unfinished ReCycle lowracer 'bent a few years back) is too narrow to fit over the headtube. I *might* be able to bend it out enough to fix that, but I'm not sure I'm strong enough. Either way, I need two U-bolts, one at top and one at bottom, so I will just ahve to try it and see.

Biggest problem with this mounting is that the ammo can is too tall to fit between any bracket that clears the fork crown, and the bottom of the handlebar stem. :( I would need to use a different stem (like the insert-type I actually want to use for it's adjustability) to be able to clear the box. Or move the packs to a different box, but I'd rather use the ammo can as it's tough, and already built as a pack. I'd have to build or modify something else as a solution if I can't make the ammo can fit there.

Optionally I have some really small U-bolts from AllElectronics, which would fit easily over the fork crown arms, and that is low enough to clear the stem enough to be able to mount it to the stem itself with another U-bolt from above, thru the handle of the box, or with another L-bracket that then lets me strap the ammo can to it. Definitely prefer mounting to the frame, but will live with this if I have to. Mostly just want to get something done so I can test ride with the motor on there. :)
DSC06456.JPG (45.65 KiB) Viewed 15999 times
DSC06457.JPG (47.29 KiB) Viewed 15999 times

Now back to your irregularly unscheduled pondering, while I see a dog about a nap.... Zzzzzz

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 21 2012 4:45am

I am wiped out right now, so no pics till tomorrow after work; I'm too tired to remember where I left the camera when I got done. :(

Some random thoughts, as I wait to doze off though:

--Kit needs an instruction manual for sure. I got it all on the bike, leaving all the connectors plugged in the way they were when shipped to me (only the battery connector and the motor/cotnroller connectors were not hooked up already, and these were kind of impossible to mess up. ). Plugged the ammocan pack into the controller, turned on the keyswitch on the lighting unit (just like all the other Fusin kits I've seen so far). The lighting unit lit up, and headlight/taillight turned on, but the "analyst" display (simply called display from here out, to avoid confusion with Grin's Cycle Analyst) did not, nor did it have any on/off switch I could find.

I pressed each of the 3 buttons on it's little attached keypad, to no effect. LIfted the rear wheel off the ground, and just slightly turned the throttle--nothing. Flipped the littel turn-signal siwtch, and even pressed the horn--got a much louder beep-tone than expected, but that's all.

Started checking connectors, and found one pin on the taillight and one pin on the keyswitch/headlight unit powerline, the one that feeds battery power back to the controller when you turn the key on, to be not seated. Fixed both of them, no change.

Started checking voltages, and found 56V (full pack voltage) going to the controller, from the controller to keyswitch, back to controller, and also out of controller to the display. No 5V to anything, though. So, figuring the problem is likely in the cotnroller, I opened it up to see. Probed around and found no pack voltage to any of the low-voltage regulator stuff, so they couldn't power anything on. Has two pads marked "switch" (SW) on the PCB, but only one is occupied, and that by a wire from the display....

So tracing the rest of the wires I find the keyswitch does not feed back to the controller PCB, instead it feeds directly back out to the display's power input. This means the display must actualy be a secondary "power switch" somehow, as it would have to be switching the power to the controller itself, after it's passed the keyswitch.

Eventually I accidentally held the Mode button on the display's keypad just a little longer than the quick presses I had tried before, and the bike turned on. :roll: Now it responds to throttle, too.

Simply labelling that Mode switch as "press here for a second to turn on", even with just a removable sticker, would help a lot. I imagine a noob never having had an ebike before would already have been so frustrated as to either take the kit back, or complain about it's failure to turn on either at a forum like ES or with the vendor. With Fusin I expect they would quickly solve the problem and the noob would now be able to ride...but turning on the bike ought not to be something you do only by accident. :(

Then I played with the buttons to see what I could do with the display, and found that the up arrow increases the power levels from 1 thru 9. The down arrow decreases, and can go down to 0, though 1 is the power-up default. 0 means disabled--the throttle doesnt' do anything. This is useful, so you can leave the bike on to move it or test things, but disable the throttle for safety, to prevent wall-climbers. :)

The mode switch when just pressed simply changes from Trip Odomoeter to Main Odometer. If held for a second when the system is off, it turns it on. If held for a couple of seconds when the system is on, it turns it off. I don't see a way to reset the trip odometer without power cycling the display. The main odometer appears to only stay as long as the main keyswitch is not turned, so battery power remains hooked to the display. I have to verify that.

If you hold the mode switch and the up arrow for a second after the system is on, it turns on the very bright white backlight of the display. This is so bright that it is blinding at night, as it is many times brighter than the back-reflection of the headlight from the road and whatnot. One must either turn the light off to ride, in which case you can't see the display at all, or turn the display so it faces another direction than towards you, in which case you have to turn it back to read it (but this is probably faster than turning the light on and off--certainly easier as the buttons are quite finicky).

The power level lights on the headlight/keyswitch unit are also very bright, just like on my original FUsin kit. To fix this on that kit, I installed two or three layers of "Limo Dark" nonadhesive window tinting inside the plastic display cover, so that I could still just see the LEDs in daylight, but was not blinded by them at night.

So both of these displays badly need a brightness adjustment. However, I can find no such function using those three buttons.

I did find that *sometimes*, if you press the Mode and up arrow just right (whatever that is), you can change the MPH display from realtime to Average or Max. But I have only managed to do it twice, despite spending several minutes retrying different ways of pressing the buttons to see what activated that. :(

Mode plus down arrow does nothing (well, it turns the bike off if you hold it long enough).

Despite coming with a PAS sensor, and the display having PAS displayed on it right next to the power level number, the system doesn't actualy respond to the PAS sensor. I set it up first with the actual magnet ring and sensor, but on a different bike mostly-stripped frame sitting next to this one, so I wouldn't have to take the cranks off of it. I just put it on there and turned the crankshaft by hand, and experimented with various "levels" on the display, and with placement of magnet ring to sensor, pedal speed, and so on. Nothing made any differnece.

So either the controller is programmed to ignore PAS, or the display thingy is not telling the controller that it should respond to it, and there are no ways to change any settings on the display unit that I can find, other than the power level 0-9 for assist. Or possibly the PAS sesnor is bad; I haven't checked if it gets any output as magnets pass it.

The brake sensor has a little LED on it to tell you when it is working, which is helpful. But it doesn't activate until you've squeezed the brakes pretty hard, so it isn't useful for setups that you'd want regen braking to happen before any mechanical braking. Irrelevant with the FUsin, as it is a freewheeling geared motor, and thus has no regen capability anyway. But these sensors are neat, and would be nice to have on other bikes with DD motors that *could* do regen, if it werent' for the point at which they start working. :(

I had a bunch of other thoughts, but can't remmeber them now, so will come back and post those when I do.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by deVries » May 21 2012 5:23am

Wholly Crap AmberWolf this is an awesome documentary diary! :twisted:

Keep-up the fantastic work with all the pics, details, and commentary. I'm loving it. :D


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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by Herrsprocket » May 21 2012 12:51pm

Yes, very cool report! Hopefully, Louis is taking note of all the things that need some subtle help on.

You were metioning that the cover plate was loose,( and you don't happen to have the multi slotted tool that tightens the plate do you?), so will you take a gander on the inside before you button it all up? Curious as to what you see for the gearing ratios and the material itself, dimensions too (wide, narrowish?). Also what are your impressions of the coils, windings, magnets, phase wire connections and thickness, just general construction of guts? How well does the freewheel "freewheel" , the internal one that is? And for that matter, how about the quality and freewheeling capability of the cassette freewheel too?

Looking forward to more news!

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 21 2012 1:19pm

Herrsprocket wrote:You were metioning that the cover plate was loose,( and you don't happen to have the multi slotted tool that tightens the plate do you?), so will you take a gander on the inside before you button it all up?
I plan to, now that I have test-ridden it and know that it works (that way I know that if it stops working after I open it up, it's probably something I did and thus easier for me to figure out and fix).

I don't have the tool, but I can probably make one out of a pipe. It would end up looking kinda like a typical freewheel removal tool, only like 2" or more across. Rather than using splines, though, I would just notch the end in a castle-type pattern to match the slots in the cover. Then weld a bar to the other end, or the sides of the pipe for handles to turn it with and press down, like a giant drill-chuck key.

How well does the freewheel "freewheel" , the internal one that is?
That works very well. I have a little video to show that, to be uploaded as soon as I can (probably tonight).

And for that matter, how about the quality and freewheeling capability of the cassette freewheel too?
It's probably average. It is very loud clickety ratcheting. The two actual bike hubs I have with built in cassette FWs are silent in operation. One is a Shimano, and one a Suntour, both old and worn, though, so it's hard to make a direct comparison--I have never had a new one so can't say if they are normally quiet when new--probably they are, though.

It does fit the cassettes perfectly though, including the threading of the lockring. No slop and no tightness.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 22 2012 1:26am

Ok, now back to pics and instalation steps:

Installing the cassette was the next thing after previous pic set. Easy to slide the cassette itself over the axle cap and hardware, but the lockring won't fit over either rubber cap or torque washer:
DSC06517.JPG (56.5 KiB) Viewed 15880 times
DSC06518.JPG (51.68 KiB) Viewed 15880 times
Simple enough to take them off, although in the process I found that the torque washer on this side has a larger hole than on the brake (left) side. I haven't measured to see whether the axle is larger on the wire side vs brake side, or just the torque washer's hole. I suspect it's the axle itself, because the "rocking" I can do of the washer on the axle is the same on both sides from what I can see.
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I would prefer torque washers that were a PERFECT fit over the axle, even to the point of having to be lightly tapped into place. But I expect that with the actual kit's controller, as long as I ensure the nuts are tight, it won't be a problem. A higher-amp controller would be more likely to cause problems, though without regen rocking the axle back and forth it probably still be ok.

The 7-speed Suntour cassette is too narrow unless I find or make some spacer rings to fill the gap:
DSC06520.JPG (52.03 KiB) Viewed 15880 times
That's ok, since I wanted an excuse to use the 8-speed Shimano, simply because it has a larger first gear (though I can't access that with my current 7-speed shifter, without messing with the derailer and shifter adjustments, which would leave me without the highest gear, and I prefer to keep that so i can attempt to pedal along at top speed just to see what wattage reduction that coudl potentially give.
DSC06521.JPG (74.18 KiB) Viewed 15880 times
So I used the 8-speed, and it fits perfectly, just like on the hub it came from.
DSC06523.JPG (51.52 KiB) Viewed 15880 times
Not that it matters, since it won't fit over the axle, but my standard freewheel tool (which also fits cassette lockrings) fits over the motor connector:
DSC06522.JPG (40.54 KiB) Viewed 15880 times

Now, test fitting the motor on the bike. It fits perfectly in the dropouts, no wiggle, no filing needed. There is actually a few mm gap left between dropouts and axle inner nuts, so it is very easy to get the wheel in and out. Wire side first, then brake side:
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The kickstand easily clears the hubmotor itself, but not the disc rotor, as expected:
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Axle sits deep enough in the dropouts to not worry about any filing to make it fit. SHould be secure. Torque washer on at least the brake side will engage with the sides of the dropout, but not really on the wire side for some reason. Maybe the dropouts are not the same; I didn't measure them.
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Brake disc clears the frame by quite a lot--I could probably use a much larger diameter disc if I wished.
DSC06538.JPG (39.27 KiB) Viewed 15880 times

The rim is not centered side-to-side, though, so I used some washers (next pic) to fix that issue temporarily, so I don't have to mess with retruing it yet.
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This is a short video of the freewheeling action, after I manually spun the motor up with the pedals (bike upside down) to as fast as I could get it. You can hear the loud click of the cassette freewheel, but the motor freewheel is silent, and very low drag. I have had bicycle wheels that drag to a stop faster than this does, so this is a pretty good one. :) It also shows the rim is fairly out of true (roundness), though it is pretty good side-to-side.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 22 2012 2:18am

Here's the pics of the guts of some things, taken when I was troubleshooting the problem that didn't exist. :oops:

Controller, from the non-wire end:
DSC06547.JPG (38.72 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

Uses STMicroelectronics FETs, the STP80NF70
http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICA ... 276203.pdf
68 V
0.0082 Ω
98 A

So no overvolting *this* controller. ;) Besides, the caps are rated at 63V (and have bicycles on them, with a 9999 below the bicycle logo).

Seen below are those caps, and the top of the controller PCB:
DSC06552.JPG (75.44 KiB) Viewed 15875 times
This is the bottom of the PCB. Note that like previous Fusin controllers, it has wires soldered to the FET supplies, so it doesn't depend on thin traces to carry the current, and is probably less susceptible to various FET failures or other issues because of that.
DSC06562.JPG (55.4 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

It does not use any heatsink paste between the FET mounting bar and the case, though. If it is applied correctly, it would probably help move heat out of the case more efficiently--but if it is not applied thinly enough or evenly, it could actually hinder heat transfer, especially after it dries out. So maybe that's why they don't use it on this one.
DSC06563.JPG (46.01 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

The FETs are mounted using Kapton tape, which is much better than the more typical gray rubbery pads at transferring heat while insulating electrically.
DSC06564.JPG (59.32 KiB) Viewed 15875 times
I am unsure why these washers were used on the screws that hold the mounting bar to the case, though. As they age, or with moisture and heat and dryness and cold and whatnot, they'll stop pushing against the screw/case, and the FET mounting bar will be held less tightly against the case, and heat will not transfer out to the case and thus out of the controller as well as it should. I'm going to leave it with them on there, just to see how it behaves over time for this review.
DSC06566.JPG (46.72 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

This controller is more efficient than older types, as it uses a small SMPS to generate 12V from the pack voltage (though it does still use a 78M05 linear regulator for the 5V).
DSC06553.JPG (69.66 KiB) Viewed 15875 times
DSC06554.JPG (44.35 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

It also has a little hall-sensor-emulator board, with SMT resistors and caps on one side, and a chip I can't read the numbers on on the other:
DSC06555.JPG (70.01 KiB) Viewed 15875 times
DSC06556.JPG (44.37 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

There's some unused pads in a row that are probably for programming the controller's MCU:
DSC06565.JPG (63.42 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

This is the wire that runs from the keyswitch output to the display unit's input.
DSC06557.JPG (47.49 KiB) Viewed 15875 times
Normally that would run straight to the SW pads below, rather than the blue wire (which is the output from the display unit), but since the display unit needs to be able to shut down the controller, it is spliced in between.
DSC06558.JPG (53.86 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

Now, since the display wouldn't turn on, and I'd traced those wire to it, I opened up the display unit, too. It is made to be fairly water-resistant, with tape securing the plastic cover to the box that holds the PCB, so water on the display surface won't run inside.
DSC06559.JPG (46.78 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

The back has a screw-in cover for a watch-style battery, but that is not used to actually install one. Instead it has programming pads under it. Presumably this could be used to update firmware in it, or possibly even to "permanently" alter default settings, if one had the software for it.
DSC06560.JPG (37.33 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

Inside, this is the board and the wiring, from the back:
DSC06550.JPG (56.45 KiB) Viewed 15875 times
And this the inside of teh switch unit. The switches are embedded in what appears to be silicone, or resin, to waterproof the connections. I suspect the quirkiness of operating the buttons is caused by the button material/design, maybe it's fairly high thickness, because without that in place, the buttons operate just fine with no finickiness.
DSC06561.JPG (55.2 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

I did find two pins that didnt' seat properly, and fixed them, in the process of trying to find the nonexistent problem, so it wasn't all wasted time. :)

The return pack voltage wire from teh keyswitch:
DSC06567.JPG (41.01 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

One of the taillight wires:
DSC06568.JPG (25.72 KiB) Viewed 15875 times

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 22 2012 3:24am

Once I figured out how to turn it on, I went ahead and finished a temporary setup on the bike (to be neatened up later):
DSC06569.JPG (64.38 KiB) Viewed 15869 times
DSC06571.JPG (75.32 KiB) Viewed 15869 times

For now, I just plugged the bullets into the PP45 Andersons, as they happen to fit in there. PRobably doesn't make as good a connection as it really needs, but it works well enough for first testing. Later I'll cut the bullets off and replace them with PP45s.
DSC06576.JPG (55.84 KiB) Viewed 15869 times

I'm using a Turnigy Watt Meter inline between battery and controller, so I can monitor total power usage over a ride, to know how much I have left at any point (since unfortunately that doesnt appear to be a function of Fusin's "analyst" display--AFAICT it only tracks the voltage of the pack for it's power meter, and that means it is not very useful for several common types of battery, because the voltage stays the same for almost all of their capacity range).

I'd use the Cycle Analyst instead, but for now that is still on my CrazyBike2. I have another CA but it's got some tiny SMT blown parts I need to replace, but haven't got the eyesight and hand-steadiness to actually do it any of the times I have sat down to try to do it.

For the moment I've only got the Fusin-provided stuff on the bars:
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This is the tailight, including the reflection from the flash on the camera. A normal bike reflector is just below it, and you can see how much brighter that is than the one in the Fusin taillight. That's the same thing I saw when I looked at the old ones, too.
DSC06583.JPG (39.74 KiB) Viewed 15869 times

With it all assembled, I was rather excited to go test it on a quick ride, so rather than wait until I have time to build the proper battery mount, I just stuck my Nishik-E's rack on this bike, mounted entirely on the swingarm.
DSC06584.JPG (51.49 KiB) Viewed 15869 times

The ammocan pack will fit just barely on there, and actually will hit the bottom of the seat in an extreme bump, but it is ok for a short test ride. :)
DSC06585.JPG (47.36 KiB) Viewed 15869 times
Since there's no way it'll just sit on the rack, I added some velcro to keep it from sliding around, and a pallet-strap to secure it to the rack.
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I would not recommend this to the average ebiker, but I did a controlled drop of the bike on it's side, letting it fall hard, and the pack didn't shift on the rack.

A useful feature of the ebrake detector is this little LED, which lights up when it has detected braking. On mine, you have to be squeezing it pretty hard before it detects, so it's actually braking the rear wheel enough to skid before the ebrake knows about it.
DSC06590.JPG (19.93 KiB) Viewed 15869 times
A quick shot of the headlights, and you can see the wattmeter's blue light down on the side.
DSC06591.JPG (37.11 KiB) Viewed 15869 times

The half-mile ride was a success, just going around the block. Unfortuantely as I was getting teh bike back in the door, and avoiding excited dogs, I accidentally disconnected the wattmeter from battery so I don't have all the data. I had looked at it after the ride but before reachign the house, so I recall it being a tad over 1000W peak, and about 18A peak, but I don't remember any fo the rest of it. :(

The good: it's got great acceleration, and I almost wheelied a little! :lol: For a geared motor, it's quiet. Possibly quieter than previous Fusins. Will need to operate both at the same time to see if that's true.

The bad: it's throttle response is VERY touchy. This is probably just the throttle itself, and that I am going to replace with one of my thumb throttles, as this one is actually dangerous to use, because of it's full-length grip, combined with the touchiness. It's dead zone at the beginning is very large, maybe 15-20 degrees of movement, and when it begins to respond the surge of thrust is quite sudden and large. I'm hoping changing throttles will fix this.

There is also a noise in the gears that only happens very occasinally, and only at startup, but doesn't matter what power level or throttle level I used. I will investigate this further later.

I don't have the PAS setup on this bike yet, so that's not been tested on-road (didn't work in the bench test but I didn't troubleshoot it yet).

I played a bit with the power level setting while riding, and am not certain if I could feel a lot of difference in my very short ride, but it definitely made a difference to the power usage. On the lower settings, it didn't peak nearly as high as it did on the higher ones, on the Fusin display unit. I don't recall the watt numbers shown, though, as I did not note them down at the time and my memory can be horrible sometimes. :(

Overall, it's satisfying enough, but there are some little things I have to fix before I would ride this on my commute, like the throttle, and figuring out all the settings on the display unit, and fixing the quirkiness of the button unit.

To that end, Louispower of Fusin has sent me the PDF manual for that, and I'll experiment with the settings it shows in there as soon as I get the chance. He also gave me some other info, too, which I'll post as soon as I can.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 23 2012 8:12pm

Biohazardman posted this:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 00#p585100
which is an identical kickstand to what I have in the pics above, so I think i will try that and see if it will work for my bike. I don't have a torque arm to bolt to as he did, but I should be able to easily make a little bracket to do the same thing. Probably easier than welding a plate to my swingarm behind the BB. :)
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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 24 2012 4:55am

Finalized the first test configuration tonight, so that I can use this for my 2.5-mile each way work commute tomorrow, and tested the configuration in a 1 mile+ around-the-block ride.
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Before the ride, I checked out the PDF manual for the analyst that Louispower sent me (which I would post here but he doesn't seem to think it's necessary?--that's ok, I'll end up posting all the relevant information anyway, as I discuss the functions and whatnot). I have a few gripes about the way this display unit works--it's functional for realtime data, more or less, but there's a lot of stuff it could do that it doesn't, or doesnt' do well when it does do it. etc.

I tried to take pics of the screens, but the camera flash kept making them unreadable, so I gave up till I can get the flash turned off (it's button is sticking and won't change flash modes).

So, to power the system on, you hold the Mode button for a second or so. Then if you want to "program" it's default settings, you hold both up and down arrows (U and D from now on) for about 3 seconds.

Once it's in that mode, it'll flash the wheel size, which on mine was at 26". It has the options for 16, 18, 20, 24, 26, 28, and 700c, IIRC. Pressing U or D increments or decrements it, and pressing Mode exits and saves to the next parameter.

There is one big problem with Fusin's method of setting the wheel size, and that is most tires are not exactly the same as the "typical" 26" tire, especially when using either big fat tires or really skinny narrow tires, so every wheel rotation will be off a little bit from what it *really* is, and so the odometer will be wrong more and more the farther you travel. Plus, the speedometer will also be wrong, but probably not by enough to matter. There's no way to set the actual tire circumference in mm, which is the normal way a rotation sensor would be set up. Hopefully they'll change this. Otherwise, you'll still have to have a *real* cycle computer (or Cycle Analyst) just to know your true speed and distance travelled.

I'll be putting the CA or my old Veloace setup (using a PDA sent by Bigmoose, most likely) on here so I can get true readings to compare to the Fusin, to see how soon the readings diverge and by how much, using the tire I have on there now.

The next setting will be your max speed that the assist will work up to. After this point is reached, it will turn off the motor, leaving you with no assist. That's probably to meet EU regulations, as that's been the target market for Fusin for a while lately. It can go anywhere from 12 to 40 Km/h, which is 7.5MPH to 24.9MPH. I chose to set it to 20MPH.

Unfortunately, even though I have it set to use Miles and not Kilometers as teh base unit, this setting ONLY displays in Km/h. :( So you have to convert the speed you want to that, if you're in MPH like me. That's 32Km/h, rounded down, for this setting, which is really just under 20MPH, at 19.9. Hopefully they'll change this setting so it allows entry in MPH if you've set the preference to that unit already. Pressing Mode goes to the next choice:

The next setting it comes up to is the backlight brightness, from 1 to 3. On it's lowest setting, it is pretty tolerable for dark nighttime, but it is still perhaps twice as bright as I would prefer it to be, so that it is easily readable but is not distracting from the road. Pressing Mode goes to the next choice:

Next is the Mile / Km choice, and I left it at Mile as that's what it was already at. Pressing the Mode button again takes you out of setup.

So, that's all you can change in it. I was hoping there would be a place to change the battery meter range limits, and set up the discharge curve so it would actually be useful for various chemistries and numbers of cells in a pack. It is nominally for a "48V" pack, but there are several voltage ranges for those, depending on chemistry. For instance, my RC LiPo pack is about 58.3V hot off the charger, with 4.15V/cell. But my Vpower/CammyCC LiFePO4 pack is 59.something at that point. Both drop down to somewhere around 56V fairly quickly, IIRC, once you start using them, but the LiFePO4 will stay around that voltage most of the time until it's empty, while the RC LiPo pack will keep dropping, down to 54V after only maybe 10-20% DOD, and continuing from there. Yet, even when it has dropped that far, and even under load, I don't see any of the five battery bars even flicker.

I am going to hook up the big Sorenson, which is adjustable up to about 56V, to this bike and see what voltage each segment goes away at, and at what point it thinks the battery is "empty" at. Hopefully tomorrow after work. Too much work to get the bike into that room, to do it tonight.

Unfortunately the manual doesn't say anything about the voltage range, only that when it's severely low voltage it'll flash the last battery meter segment at 1Hz.

I was also hoping to be able to program the default power setting for assist, too, but it doesn't have that option, either. You have to manually change it from 1 every time you turn it on.

Another setting I'd like to change is to have the backlight turn on when I power it up, as I pretty much always have to ride at least half of each trip in the dark. I'd rather not have to mess around with trying to get the backlight turned on every time I turn on the unit--I don't care that it uses a teensy bit more power--the Turnigy Watt Meter can't see any difference in power usage with or without the backlight on. It's about 60mA either way, as long as I don't have the headlight/taillight on (which adds another 70mA or so).

So, then I took it for a test ride.

The exact distance is unknown, because while trying to fiddle with the 3-button control on the Fusin display, I powered it off at a couple of points in the ride. Since it doesn't remember anything from power cycle to power cycle, except for total odometer (whcih for some wierd reason only counts whole miles, not tenths, even though the trip odo can do that), I only know that it was something less than 2 miles, since it says 3 miles total and it had said 1 mile before that. However, when it said 1 mile, it had only actually gone about 0.6 miles, IIRC. So...I dunno exactly how far, other than that I know it was more than 1 mile.

So I can't say what the Wh/mile is on this thing yet. :(

The Fusin display also doesn't show you ANY stats from the ride itself, so I can't say what the average or peak speeds were for sure, either. It *can* display this, if you manage to accidentally press the right combination somehow, but deliberately pressing the buttons to do it doesn't work, and usually results in accidentally power-cycling the unit. I've done both a few times--gotten the average or peak speeds up on display, or powered it off, but the latter is all I can consistently do. :(

I saw various wattage levels on the Fusin display, but they disappear quickly and don't update very often, so I wasn't able to get any useful info from it. I will need to ride a long (mile-plus) stretch of road with zero traffic or hazards, repeatedly at different types of riding and power levels, etc., in order to actually be able to look at the display long enough to wait for it to come up with stable readings that I can note down (since it does not remember any usage stats for this, either). Mostly, the watts display on there is useless for street riding--there are way too many interruptions or potential hazards to be able to look at it long enough to see a reading for your present speed/etc. to show up.

It would help if it sampled more often, and updated the display constantly, instead of what seems like every few seconds. It would also help if it remembered it's peak and average wattage readings, and also if it calculated Wh/mile, which it could easily do, as it already has the data to do it. Heck, it has what appears to be a serial data connection to the controller itself, so it could easily do a LOT of data display and analysis, but it isn't designed to do any of that, apparently. Big waste of potential, just like the one from Crystalyte.

For now, I can only recommend that you get a Cycle Analyst instead of this little Fusin display (which they call an "analyst", too, but it doesn't really seem to allow analyzing anything, as it has no stored data--that's one reason I am calling it a "display" rather than "analyst"). This display might be good enough for many users, but lots of them will at some point need more information than it gives, especially about battery level, so the CA is definitely a better choice, even if you never use most of it's functions.

About the only thing useful on this unit (that other existing items don't already do much better) is the ability to adjust the power level from 0-9 with the up/down buttons. Zero level is kinda nice because you can instantly turn off the assist by setting that, but it could also be done by turning the unit off, or using the ebrake. Mostly I think it will be useful when I let someone look at and handle the bike, so they can't accidentally make it take off. :lol: 1-9 are nice gradations of power, and you *can* feel the difference between them, but really a tactile clicky 3-speed switch is just as good or even better, because you can feel which way you set it without ever looking down from watching traffic, to know what level it's at, so you know what you'll get next time you hit the throttle or start pedalling (if PAS).

I'm still going to use the unit to compare to, and perhaps I'll figure out how better to utilize it as time goes on.

Since this display doesn't have the ability to usefully monitor any of the things I need to know about other than realtime speed, I used a Turnigy Watt Meter between battery and controller for the rest. That gave me the following numbers from tonight's test ride:

54.84V resting
989.4W peak
18.37A peak
0.643Ah used
34.7Wh used

It reported a 35.03V minimum reading, but that has to be a result of disconnecting/reconnecting the pack while the TWM was still on the controller, as I verified under load that the pack never gets anything like that much voltage sag. :?

The ride itself:

Acceleration is smooth and pretty quiet, with the exception of occasional difficulty of the motor getting going. I eventually realized this is because it is sensorless, so sometimes it I guess tries to spin the wrong way, before correcting and starting up the right way? Not really sure exactly what it does, but it makes the gears sound all grindy inside when it happens. I don't think it actually is the gears, but is rather the motor figuring out which direction to spin, and then taking up the load of moving hte bike. It happens often enough to be annoying, but not enough to be a problem.

Several times when it happened, I decided not to release throttle and retry, but rather to just hold it at that level and see if it fixed itself--it does. So the controller is smart enough to figure out it's not getting the response it needs from the motor, and then correcting it's output to get the right response, whcih is a good thing.

As I also got PAS working, I tested that out, too. It takes at least 2-3 seconds or more of pedalling before it kicks in, which is really annoying. By the time it starts going, your legs have forgotten that they were expecting help, so when it arrives even in lowest setting it is quite a surge of power and is very disconcerting--almost as if someone had hit the bike from behind. It's much more concerning when you have the power at a high setting, 7-8-9 all are almost dangerous with PAS working, especially if you are riding in traffic. The assist stops almost instantly (less than half a second) when you stop pedalling, but it takes way too long to start after you restart pedalling. Fortunatley throttle still works, so you can just throttle first, then let go after a few seconds, and keep pedalling to keep assist going.

I'm not totally sure yet, but PAS seems to generate about half-throttle-equivalent of power, rather than full. If you slam the throttle to full when pedalling with PAS, it feels like power assist doubles. No hard data on that yet.

ALso, PAS works the same even if you pedal backwards. :)

The display controls (3-buttons) are frustrating when riding. The up/down buttons are easy enough, though you cant see them in the dark at all, so you must learn where they are. But sometimes the up button sticks, and so the power level increases all on it's own. :(

Once when I was trying to turn it back down after it did that, it changed from realtime speed to average speed. As I tried to correct that, I accidentally turned the system off by holding Mode too long. :roll: Then when I turned it back on, it had lost the trip odometer, and of course I had to turn the backlight back on, as it doesn't remember either of those. This happned again later on, though this time it went to peak speed instead of average, and I was not touching the buttons at the time. (so I think sometimes either electrical noise is causing a problem with the display thinking they are pressed, or something actually is sticking in them and really sending the signal to change the dipslay).

One thing I tried repeatedly but have yet to get to work is that in the manual it says to hold the Down button for "a while" to turn on "walk" mode, which gives 6Km/h (3.7MPH) constant-speed assist so you can walk beside the bike but not have to provide the power to move it. That's something I'd love to have sometimes, for hills too steep to ride up, or when I have some other problem that lets me walk the biek but not ride it. Hopefully I'll be able to hold my mouth just right and get this to work later.

More data tomorrow from the first commute with it. For now, next will be another bike build post, with info from before tonights ride.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 24 2012 5:37am

I didn't get to the kickstand part mentioned above, though it had been in the plan.

First step was to add a small front cargo rack so I can carry my work stuff and lunch, as well as basic tools/spare tube/etc., as I don't like wearing a backpack in this heat (well, really not at all just cuz). I do carry the stuff in a backpack for ease of stuffing in a locker, when I am not riding CrazyBike2 with it's lockable metal cargo pod, but the pack will sit in the basket with a strap over it for the ride.
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Since the fork is alloy lowers, with "cups" for the QR skewer nuts, I used some washers stacked up under the basket support arms to transfer the force from the skewers thru the arms thru the washers to the dropout face, so nothing cracks. Also, the front QR skewer is way too short to do this, so I used the rear one off that 7-speed bare hub that I didn't use the cassette from in a previous post. :)
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Securing the top/end of the basket to the fork was done iwth hose clamps to the support arch. It has no thru-hole for a fender bolt, so I didn't have the option of just using that like I would have on a different kind of fork.
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I also test-fit the ammocan pack in there, but it is way too heavy to be that far out on the front of the bike, and it makes moving the bars/fork around pretty difficult when riding, and steering is somewhat unpredictable especially at slower speeds.
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Moving it to the top of the front rack helps a tad, becuase it can go farther back, but it is still too far out unless I stand it up on it's bottom or edge. I'd rather have it on the unsuspended rear rack than that, until I can fab a mount to put it on the frame/headtube.
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One bad thing: I was really thinking I would switch to a 26" front wheel until I get the disc-caliper mount made for the front, so I could use the regular brake arm mounting studs for rim brakes (which I can't wiht a 24" wheel), but there is nowhere near enough space under the basket for this, even with a non-fat tire. I'd have to make a bracket to secure the basket top/rear either to the crown, in which case it's going to have to pivot during suspension movements, or a differetn bracket to extend the mounting so it would clear the tire. So no front brakes for now. :(
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I considered instead using the rear basket, which is much larger, but is also in much worse shape. It would clear the tire, but it's so much bigger I decided not to.
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I also considered mounting it on the rear, and leaving the front one off, but I already have a lot of weight back there with the motor and the ammocan pack and me. Maybe later once I move the pack in front of the frame.
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Bad news: I noticed the patch I did to the tire didn't hold, not unexpectedly. I guess I'll have to sew it. For now it is aat least preventing herniation of the tube, but I have to fix it before I can trust it for any lenght of time. I'm still going to try the commute with it like this tomororw, simply cuz I'm too tired to find my sewing stuff and take everything apart to get the tire off, fix it, and put it back together. I'll just bring the patch kit and my spare tube, just in case I am wrong about it not herniating.
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During the test ride I got real tired of the brigth green power display on the headlight unit, and since there is also one on the Fusin display unit I just put electrical tape over the LEDs. There's still green underglow, but it is not blinding.
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A mirror is necessary for commuting, so I took the old DayGlo Avenger mirror and what's left of the mirror mounting bar from an old 80s Suzuki dirtbike from Mdd0127, and put it together with part of a seatpost clamp on the end of the bars, just like I did on DGA and CrazyBike2.

You take the seatpost clamp itself and slide it over the end of the handlebar, right up to the little dimple that would keep it from sliding down the seatpost. Then slip the nut over one bare end of the "rear" side of that (facing the rider), with the square bolt thru the "front" side of that. Put *both* of the cupped-clamping portions of the seat clamp (taht would hold onto the wire frame of the seat bottom, normally) together facing each other, so that they can clamp around the mirror's mounting bar to secure it to the bike. Slip a washer over the end of that, and loosely place the nut on the end. Then stick a large nut or other bit of unneeded stuff into the other side, so that it helps hold the clamps even, as they are going to be separated by enough distance taht they'll just angle and not clamp as you tighten the nut down otherwise.
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Now this allows you to also swing the mirror out of the way if you have to lean the bike on a wall.
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Speaking of storage positions, it turns out htat even with the basket, I can "stow" the bike by rotating the front end 180 degrees:
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Getting rid of that touchy full-grip throttle was next, so I swapped it for one of my thumb throttles, which I think came from Ianmcnally, IIRC. This let me also compact the controls together some more, and just barely (1mm) clear each moving control from all others.
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I mounted it backwards because I prefer to push forwards with it over the top of the bar with my thumb, rather than underneath the bar, though on CrazyBIke2 where my hands are more vertical I prefer it the other way.
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This leaves me with handelbars setup like this, now:
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Next was getting PAS working. Turned out to simply be another loose connection--one of the pins was backing out; I missed this in my previous checks where I found two others like that in other connectors. That's a common problem with JST type connectors, apparently.

Anyway, so I setup the PAS on the left crank, so I wouldn't have to deal with removing the chainring side crank, readusting derailers, etc. Requires a very close fit of sensor to magnet ring to work.
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IT also doesn't matter which way you mount the ring, or even which way you pedal--PAS engages the same either way.
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Lastly I added some reflective tape to the bike in strategic locations, as it is a nearly black bike, making it harder to see at night (especialy without my usual bright lights and turn signals and stuff).
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So, all up loaded as shown, this bike is only 70lbs. At least 7lbs of that is tools, bag, etc. in that front rack, plus another pound or two of rack. Ammocan pack is I think about 18lbs? I forget.

Anyhow, pack is still balanced after the ride, and is now recharged back to 58.3V for tomorrow's commute.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 25 2012 12:15am

First day's commute: Bike is ok, but car drivers SUCK. I almost got run over several times, most of them in broad daylight by people that just *barely* moved sligthly over in the lane to sort of kinda go around me. SOme of them honked their horns *as* they passed me, or screamed out the window trying to scare me, etc. Doesn't work as I have been thru that for years as just a regular cyclist, pre-electric.

But none of this happens when I'm on CrazyBike2. People treat me like I belong on the road, for the most part, and typically go all the way into the other lane to pass me, and certainly don't honk or yell at me trying to scare me.

I'm wearing the same MC half-helmet I do on CB2, riding the same way, going the same speed, etc., but the bike under me is OBVIOUSLY just a bicycle, so I am a target instead of a fellow "driver". :( It's a shame people have such a shitty mindset--but I think that is one of the big reasons ebikes are going to have a super-hard time catching on in much of the USA.

If they look like bicycles, they will get treated like crap on the roads. If they don't look like bicycles (but more like the scooter styles with "pedals"), they will get treated like crap on bicycle facilities, and often anywhere else. If they look like wierd contraptions like my CrazyBike2, they seem to earn respect. I dunno what the heck goes on in people's heads, and I'm not sure I want to. :?

Ok, now for the ride info. Distance is used from my CrazyBike2 Cycle Analyst measurements of the same trip, because of problems with the Fusin Display unit. Speeds are not listed in the data, because the Fusin Display unit won't usually let me go to those screens.

Just to test the limiter, I have it set to limit to 20MPH max, so when I reach that speed the motor cuts out, and wont' restart until speed drops below that. So the peak speed I ever saw right after cutout was 22.1MPH, and only once. Usually it said 19.8MPH or 20.0MPH. I basically "floored it" WOT the whole time I wasn't actually stopped or approaching one of the dozen or so full stops on my route each way.

I used only the #1 power setting, the lowest, for this ride. No pedalling was done, motor only. Tomorrow I will use #2, and so on, just to get about the same data set for each power setting. After that I will see about using PAS only, no throttle, for the same run-thru of power levels.

* in the data means it is estimated or is calculated form other data, if that reading is not actually provided by the Fusin display unit or the Turnigy Watt Meter.

Commute to work was slightly breezy from varying directions. Pretty warm, high 90s.
20.8Wh/mile* (19.1Wh/mile)

Commute home from work was very gusty with at least 20MPH gusts from varying directions, mostly from the side (from the west, mostly), some of them were enough to push me almost the whole lane over to the left before I could counter them.
20.6Wh/mile* (22.5Wh/mile)

There were a number of issues along the way.

The worst is the Up button still keeps "sticking" or engaging when not even pressed, so that occasionaly it will go up in power level on it's own several levels, which is very disconcerting in traffic. I'm gonna have to do something about that--maybe trim the rubber button or something (the mechanical switch itself doesn't do this without the rubber button sheet over it).

The next worst is that twice, the Fusin Display unit "locked up", continuing to display the same speed and wattage even though I had coasted to a stop, because it had caused the controller to stop as well. Both times it was at 19.8MPH on the display, so I assume that it was triggering the speed-cutoff, and got "lost".

The first time there was a line of cars approaching from behind, and this is on the section in front of Castles and Coasters where it is No Stopping Anytime, and there aren't driveways/ramps I could easily get into, except the loading dock that was full of truck unloading, and a bunch of people on the sidewalk so I couldn't just try to hop the curb and get up there (I'd've probably crashed anyway cuz I've never been any good at that).

So I just pedalled as hard as I could to keep going till I got to the parking lot, pulled into a space, and tried to see if the display woudl respond to buttons--it didn't. Even holding down it's power-off button didn't work. I had to use the keyswitch on the headlight to cycle power and reset the unit. I verified all the connections on all connnectors in the whole kit, and none had any problems I could see. I reseated them all, too, just in case.

The second time it happened I had just made the light at an intersection, so all the cars were "stuck" there and I wasn't in any danger of being run over, so I just let it coast to a stop, and went thru the same thing--power cycling was needed to reset it.

I rechecked wires and found no issues, but htat doesn't mean there isn't one. However, I suspect there is something in either the controller or the display unit that is causing the lockups. Unfortunatley it could be caused by anything from a software glitch to a hardware failure, and the source of any hardware failure could be factory, handling, or even my opening it up when I couldn't get the bike to turn on the first time around (though it isn't likely, it is possible).

Twice in one ride is not encouraging, however I will stil keep testing it just like it is for now. If it continues to do this, I'll disconnect the Fusin display from the controller, and see if the controller itself ever locks up--I don't expect it will, as I am pretty sure it's directly related to reaching the cutoff speed, and the display unit locking up right after reaching and engaging the cutoff.

The only other issue is that maybe a tenth of the time (perhaps less), the sensorless startup doesn't work right and you hear the motor all grindy and loud for a second or so before it reengages correctly. Once when I was at a stop sign, it would not actually reengage until I rolled the bike backward an inch or two, and then retried the throttle--at first it just growled at me.

This motor is very definitely quieter than my 9C direct drive on Crazybike2. Even it's gear noise at startup is MUCH quieter than the 9C's "shuddering groan" at that same point.

It is also at least a little more efficient, given that over the same route it takes only 2/3 of the same Wh, even though the bike and my riding position is less aerodynamic than CrazyBike2. (keeping in mind that CB2 weighs twice what this bike does, but that the total weight moved by the Fusin here is only about 25% less: 70+160 vs 150+160).

On these two longer rides, I was able to have a few stretches with no traffic or hazards and spare longer glances at the watts on the Fusin Display, and it does appear to generate what might be useful info, but I need to mount the other wattmeter up next to it so I can see them at the same time and compare. Most of the time when I was able to look, it was fluctuating from 115W thru various values up to 338W, cruising at about 20MPH.

To really test it out, I'll need to setup a stand with a resistance against hte wheel to represent the road, and then accelerate, cruise, etc., while on "the bench" to actually be able to properly see what the display does in various conditions; there's just too much going on on the road to keep an eye on it long enough.

If it were on CrazyBike2, it'd be easy to do, as it'd be right in front of me all the time, not having to look down at it. But on a regular bike, the handlebars are way down low so lookign at anything on them means completely taking my eyes off the road, which I prefer to never do. Having the mirror so far down is bad enough.

So far, I really like the motor itself. I'd rate it higher than the previous Fusins, and I really liked those, too.

The controller's ok, but it's sensorless module isn't perfect (I suspect it is very hard to do sensorless well under such loads as ebikes/etc.). I would bet that as a sensored controller it works really well.

The Fusin Display "analyst" unit leaves a lot to be desired.

Since as I understand it, Fusin wouldn't normally be supplying the headlight/taillight/control cluster with these as kits, anything I have to say about those doesn't really apply to this review.

I'm not charging the battery tonight, so I can see how the battery meter behaves on the display. So far it is still at 5 bars (full); the pack is actually down about 1.7Ah from today's ride, and is only really charged up to maybe 9Ah (4.14V/cell) of it's 10Ah capacity.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by deVries » May 25 2012 2:33am

If they look like bicycles, they will get treated like crap on the roads. If they don't look like bicycles (but more like the scooter styles with "pedals"), they will get treated like crap on bicycle facilities, and often anywhere else. If they look like wierd contraptions like my CrazyBike2, they seem to earn respect. I dunno what the heck goes on in people's heads, and I'm not sure I want to.
Is it the same route & approximate time that you normally ride crazybike on? I think that's a yes, since commuting to work, but correct me if I'm wrong.

So far, I do not see any advantage of having their dashboard. In fact, plenty of negatives for what should be a turnkey no-hassle device that is already causing safety issues about riding safely on the road. :oops:

However, buying the bare motor & controller looks to be a possible option, unless the controller has to be used with the dashboard??? Comments?

Also, it will be interesting if you can also just use a different controller brand than what comes with the motor too??? :idea:

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 25 2012 3:42am

deVries wrote:Is it the same route & approximate time that you normally ride crazybike on?
Yes. Same kind of traffic, and in fact many of the same vehicles I have seen around the same times, occasionally, over many months.

So far, I do not see any advantage of having their dashboard. In fact, plenty of negatives for what should be a turnkey no-hassle device that is already causing safety issues about riding safely on the road. :oops:
True, but I don't yet know what is cuasing some of those negatives, and as I said, it is possible they could be the result of my opening it up, however unlikely that might be.

Their dashboard *could* have advantages for any or all of the following users:
--those that live where it is *required* that the assist cut out at a certain speed, but also wish to be able to bypass that for some reason for offroad use.
--Those that want more than just 3 power levels instantly avaialble
--Those that want a speedometer, realtime power meter, battery meter, etc., all in a single backlit display, without spending the money for a Cycle Analyst (assuming this thing is cheaper than that, which I don't know, having never seen a price for it).
--Those that want "cool factor" on their bike, cuz it does look pretty neat--I got a lot of comments from coworkers who saw it while I was working (since this bike gets parked in the back room, not outside!).
--(I had some other stuff to list, but got distracted by the dogs, and now I've forgotten--I'll put them here later if I remember them).

Mostly I wish it *remembered* data after power-off, and that it had a MUCH faster data resolution/display refresh. (see my next post for even more sloooooooowlyyyyy-updaaaaatiiiiing daaaataaaa).
However, buying the bare motor & controller looks to be a possible option, unless the controller has to be used with the dashboard???
I'm pretty sure the controller can operate fine without this device, as long as you manually short from the keyswitched output line to the input line of the "enable" (SW) on the controller's connector to this device. But I haven't tested that (I will, later).

Also, it will be interesting if you can also just use a different controller brand than what comes with the motor too??? :idea:
Oh, I'm sure a different sensorless controller will work fine, and I am also sure that I could install halls in it and operate it as a sensored motor. ;) But for now, it stays as a set to finish the review (whcih is going to take a while, to rack up at least 500 miles on it, for various types of riding. 5 miles per workday means 100 workdays if that's all I rode it for, so it's going to get some other longer trips as soon as I can work them in, after I get a better tire on there than the ruptured one or I get it sewn back up).

I may well *try* the motor on a different sensorless controller, once I have another working one. I have an Lyen / "infineon" / xie-chang sensorless from Mdd0127, but it has to have it's troubleshooting and repair finished before I can use it. So it won't be very soon, most likely.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 25 2012 4:57am

Alrighty, I had a few minutes I stole from doggie attention while they were out in teh yard barking at stupid people in the street near my house, so I tested the battery meter vs input voltage using the Sorenson DCS-55-55, which maxes out at 56.4V, IIRC. I set it to that max voltage, with a 20A current limit.

I hooked it up in place of the battery pack, and ran the voltage down from that point to about 30V, pretty quickly just to watch the meter response. The LED meter on the headlight unit instantly responded to the change, just like an audio VU meter, but the Fusin Display unit didn't change at all. I stopped and waited a second...then two...and THEN it changed, a bar at a time, over up to a few seconds to then blink at me on the last bar, indicating low battery.

Now THAT is a super-slow response time, and it makes it totally useless for knowing when your pack might be getting a little low based on voltage sag under load, unlike the instant-response meter on the older LED headlight display. Since it takes so long to respond, it isn't going to show the power dips when accelerating and such, whcih can be vital clues to the health of your battery, especially as it ages.

I suppose this delayed-response might be helpful in keeping uninterested-in-maintenance riders from seeing any "nonexistent problems" of the battery meter "going down" when the battery is suposed to be "full". But it could really be hiding a problem from them--either that their battery is not really good enough to run their bike, or that it has a health problem that needs to be looked at. They'll never know, because they won't see the sag most of the time, if it happens only at higher current loads of startup from a stop or whatever momentary load might do it for the majority of riders.

So here's one more place I would fail the display at. Needs an essentially "instant" response time so that voltage sag can be used to diagnose a problem, without having to carry around another meter just for hte purpose (negating the usefulness of the built-in battery meter and giving just one more reason to not have the Fusin Display in the first place).

I'm still going to test this reaction time on-road, as I run the ammocan pack down over the next few days, and report the results. But I don't expect it to be any more usable than ti appears in these bench tests.

Anyway, here's a video showing the delay. The LED meter is essentially realtime showing me lower the voltage, while the LCD of the display is very delayed response.

Oh, and the point of the whole test in teh first place--the voltages at which each bar ceases to display. I put it as a range, with the lowest votlage that bar lights at, and the highest one just before the next bar lights up:
5-- 50.4V > 58.V+
4-- 48.9V > 50.3V
3-- 47.4V > 48.8V
2-- 45.9V > 47.3V
1-- 38.3V > 45.8V
blinking 1-- 38.2V and below

The actual LVC for the system is 34.4V--that's where it keeps the motor from spinning. If voltage drops that low, it does not re-allow using teh motor until it goes back up to at least 35.2V.

Note also that the system has an auto shut off if you don't use the throttle or PAS within a few minutes, even if you are doing other things with it. It may also prevent time out if you are pressing buttons on the display unit; I haven't tested that. But just having it on, it times out and shuts the bike down. Handy to save power I guess, but idle power consumption isn't all that high to start with.

Now, here's a problem. 38.2V / 14 cells means that my "48V" RC LiPo battery will be down to 2.7V / cell before the display thinks it is desperately low and needs recharge, telling me so by blinking the last segment. That's dangerous, and would probably damage the pack permanently.

Even the next level up, at 1 segment left solidly on, is at it's start 45.8V / 14 cells for 3.27V / cell. That's still pretty danged low, but at least not quite so dangerously so--except that this thing doesnt' show you the sag it'll be having below that level during acceleration and such momentary loads.

2 bars would give me 47.3V / 14 cells for 3.37V/cell, still pretty low.

3 bars is 48.8V / 14 cells for 3.48V / cell; still lower than I'd like.

4 bars is 50.3V / 14 cells for 3.59V / cell, whcih i guess I could live with but would rather recharge real soon after reaching there, since somewhere around 3.5V is something like 80% DOD for RC LiPo, IIRC.

Which means that by the time it even drops a single bar, I've already used most of the pack's safely-usable capacity! :shock:

At this point the meter is still telling me I have at least 80% of my pack left to use, which is dangerously wrong, especially since one would assume that it means I have still got 80% of my range left. If I went 30 miles on that first bar, I must still have another 120 miles left available to me in my 10Ah pack, right? :lol: :(

So basically, this meter obviously isn't meant for *this* chemistry, and essentially cant' be safely used with it. Is ti meant for LiFePO4 instead? Let's see:

My Vpower/CammyCC 48V pack is 16s, nominally fully charged at 58.4V, IIRC. That's about 3.65V / cell when full. Ping's BMS I think uses LVC of 2.1V / cell, but I'd probably cut off higher than that with this pack. Let's call it 3V for really keeping it safe. :)

38.2V / 16 cells = 2.39V / cell.
45.8V / 16 cells = 2.86V / cell.
47.3V / 16 cells = 2.95V / cell.
48.8V / 16 cells = 3.05V / cell.
50.3V / 16 cells = 3.14V / cell.

That means that with LiFePO4, the meter is at least usable down to the 3rd bar, but it still means taht it shows a rider they have 60% of their pack left when they don't actually have that much, AFAIK.

I suppose for those that go down to 2.8V / cell, then the meter is indeed usable (and probably intended) for LiFePO4 16-cell packs, as that will be at bar 1, and empty (last bar flashing) it will be VERY deeply discharged, enough to affect the life of the pack if you do that a lot.

Now it just needs to be specified in the manual and website for this device that it is meant to be used for LiFePO4 16-cell packs, with a warning that if used with anything else the meter will not be usably accurate for remaining capacity.

If it were up to me, I'd have this meter be programmable for what each bar represents, or even better simply choose your chemistry from a list, and enter the number of cells. Then it would have a lookup table for the proper discharge curve typical of he chemistry, and then set the voltages for each bar to actually represent 20% of the pack's safely-usable capacity, which is really only 80% of the total capacity of the pack, if you want it to last.

But then, I'd also have an actual Wh and Ah display on here, too. ;)

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 26 2012 1:22am

This post is for ride data from today's commute, at power level 2. Same path/etc as yesterday, a little breezy both on the way there and back. Same traffic problems of cars almost running me off the road, day or night. Less cars at night but more idiots driving them.

Display unit locked up the controller once about 1/2 mile into the ride to work, ahd to power cycle to get the motor to respond again. This time I went into setup and changed the max speed back to the max allowed (40Km/h, 24.8MPH), and just never used full throttle after that, so that even if the display locks up it won't cause the controller/motor to be disabled until I power cycle it. Way too dangerous to have this happen in traffic.

After that, the *Speed* indication would often freeze for a while (I lost count of how many times I looked down to see an impossible display of way too high or too low for the actual speed I was at), but the rest of the unit kept working normally. Sometimes the speed display simply stayed frozen until I power cycled it--when I got home, for instance, it still showed over 13MPH even after being parked in the living room for a few minutes, while I let the dogs out and fed them and stuff. :? I don't know when it had last been reading the right speed, either, as I stopped bothering to try checking it not long after I left work--too many road hazards at night that I can't see without a proper headlight (this one is kind of ok for my slowpokey pedal-bicycle speeds of around 10-12MPH, but not remotely adequate for 20MPH).

The buttons for the display continued to work even though the speed was frozen, so I could change the power level, turn the backlight on or off, etc. I could even turn the unit off and on, which would clear the "stuck" speed display.

I think this tells me there is likely something going on with either the wiring/connections or the speed sensor inside the motor (presumably it detects a magnet on the motor shell, with the sensor on one of the fixed parts of the stator or axle). I reseated all the possible connections for this issue (custom round motor/controller connector, JST-sensor connector at controller end of that cable, and the controller/display cable. None made a difference, and a quick examination of the wires roadside shows no problem. So I need to closely check all the wires and connections along the path and see if I find an intermittent problem there.

If not, I'll have to use the oscilloscope to watch the signal from the sensor at the motor connector, and see if it is intermittent. I'm kind of hopeing it is, so I can justify making a tool for opening the motor up to see if the sensor itself is problematic somehow. ;)

So for now I have no certainty of the speeds I was going, other than that it felt about like 18-19MPH, and was certainly way less than the max 24.8MPH cutoff limit.

(* means data is calculated not readout from TWM or Fusin display)
Ride to work:
24Wh/mile* (22Wh/mile)

Ride home from work:
18.7Wh/mile* (20.4Wh/mile)

I also used 0.173Ah in a ride around the parking lot looking for lost shopping carts.

I decided to recharge the pack rather than trying to use ti to see if the meter works, because I already know what the meter responds like from the testing last night, and I should really have the pack in teh same SOC each test ride. So I will redo power level 2 again tomorrow, so it can be more fairly compared with power level 1 from yesterday.

I dug out my other set of motorcycle lights, but I haven't time or energy to install them tonight. When I do it I will need to build a relay circuit to switch the brake light on and off, controlled by the little Fusin ebrake detector signal. I will also need to determine which wires on teh Fusin control cluster are used for it's turn signal switch, so I can wire those to another relay to run the signal lamps (as all of these motorcycle things are incandescent, not LED). I will use the Ultrapower pack from CrazyBIke2 to power the lighting, but it will probably need to be recharged every night at the power levels this setup will draw. I also have to take the headlight off the 1972-ish Suzuki dirtbike to use on this for now, as I don't remember where I put the other car headlights like the one on CrazyBIke2, so that I could weld up a mount for one to put it on this bike.

Once I do have a chance to get the lighting on there, it will be interesting to see if people then treat me more like they do when I'm on CrazyBike2, or if they continue to treat me like they do regular bicycles.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 27 2012 1:43am

Today was a very nice day for almost everything. Temperature dropped to only 75F at the hottest it got all day, and it was 68F by the time I left work a couple hours ago. Traffic was actually pretty scarce and no one was an asshat, even though this is the first day of the 3-day holiday weekend. (or maybe *because* of that). And the kit worked right almost the whole time. :)

No lockups of the display, speedo worked right AFAICT the whole time, etc. I suspect it may be temperature-based, like maybe a connection in the wiring or connector pins or a crimp--but almost always, those have the opposite behavior--they work when hot but not when cold. :?

So today's ride was again on power level 2, this time with the pack at full charge when I started out from home. I'll be recharging each night so I can test each day's higher power level with the same pack conditions.

Same as before, * means data is calculated not readout from TWM or Fusin display.
Ride to work:
23.1Wh/mile* (21.2Wh/mile)

Ride home from work:
19.9Wh/mile* (21.7Wh/mile)

Here's to hoping things stay good and keep working. :)

Oh, and a note about Wh/mile: I think I might have the distances mixed up on the trip home vs trip there; I'll have to actually put the CA on the bike to re-measure the distance. I think they're swapped because the Wh/mile figure is way higher for all trips TO work than it is FROM work, which makes no sense. I parenthetically included the value if I use 2.2miles for the trip home and 2.4 for the trip to work, and you can see that they are very close. I also went back and edited this into the previous ride data posts.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 28 2012 4:49am

Today's ride was also nice, with a high near 82F as I went to work.

Had a few incidents of speedo not responding, which makes me think more of a temperature-sensitive cause, but not sure what it is. Unit never locked up, though. Speedo occasionally seemed stuck at some obviously-wrong speed, like 10.5MPH when I had to be going 20MPH+, accelerating away from a traffic light just turned green, and trying to get out of the way of cars that had not had to slow down for the light.

Usually the speedo recovered, eventually showing the correct speed, but a couple of times it just stayed at some reading until I stopped completely and then started moving again. This is different behavior than any of the other times it stuck. The rest of the times it really stuck, I had to power cycle the display.

Today's ride was all at power level 3, at 18-20MPH as much as possible. I also had a short cart-retrieval run while at work that used up 0.253Ah, run at maybe 5MPH for most of it, in teh parking lot pulling carts back to the store.

I forgot to put the CA on the bike to do the re-measurement of distance, so I may still ahve the to and from distnances reversed. Hope I have time to move the CA over tonight.

Same as before, * means data is calculated not readout from TWM or Fusin display.
Ride to work:
21.4Wh/mile* (19.6Wh/mile)

Ride home from work:
18.2Wh/mile* (19.9Wh/mile)

Traffic was still nice today--lighter than usual but mostly better because there were no asshats.

I moved the taillight from under the seat to the rear edge of the rack, partly for visibility but mostly because it is getting beat up by the ammocan when I hit bumps. I do love having even a primitive rear shock, I'll tell ya that! But I gotta make a mount for this pack up front on the headtube or something, cuz it's annoying when the bump sends the wheel/rack/pack upward to bang into the bottom of the seat. If I had the right seatpost so it would lock into position (this one is too small a diameter) I could raise it an inch or two, and the problem would likely go away (and pedalling would be more easily possible without standing). though I do like being able to sit flat-footed when at a light or stop sign, without getting off the saddle. :)

I also need to flip the thumb throttle over. These bars are shaped differently than my others liek on DGA, and the hand position that is comfy on that bike is not on this one, so the thumb needs to go below the bars. :( Dunno if it'll be better or not, but I have to take the stuff off that end of teh bars and move it around and then test it.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 28 2012 5:16am

I dozed off typing the previous post, then when I woke up I couldn't go back to sleep but forgot to check the browser and see where I left off. So it's posted now, but actually typed up several hours ago, like around 8pm. :/

Then I went to feed the dogs and myself and stuff, and decided I should at least install the "real" lights and signals if I could. I thought I would use the headlight off the Suzuki, but both filaments are burned out (it's from 1972, so I'm not surprised). Disappointing as it fit perfectly at the front of the baskets, between them just ahead of the tire. So I had to dig out a car headlight. I can't find the other normal one (like I have on CrazyBike2), only one of the "bright" highbeams--about 70W draw at the 15-ish volts the pack puts out, and pretty friggin' bright when it's a couple feet from your eyes. :shock: No time to make a mount for it, so it just gets velcro-strapped to the top back of the basket for now.

Bolted the taillight (same type as on CB2, by coincidence, but still all-original) to a couple of angle brackets salvaged from something a while back, and had to just ziptie those to the rear edge of the rack; no time to make a real mount for them yet.

Made a sort-of-mount for the rear signals, by taking a flat plate from the back of some rack equipment, it's really soft steel, and bending the ends down for "ears" and drilling a hole in the center to bolt to the rack's existing reflector mount, then a hole in each "ear" for the turn signals to bolt to.

The front signals have rubber fork-stanchion-clamps, made for a much larger fork than my bike has, so I wrapped some "filler" inside the rubber and clamped them onto the crown tops. Still a bit loose, so had to run a ziptie thru the clapm over the basket edge to ensure they don't slip down under vibration. Have to work out a real way to do this later.

Had just enough time to wire everything up to andersons for the batteyr connector, and spades to slip over the headlight pins. No time yet to wire to the turn signal switch on the Fusin control cluster (because I have to take it off teh bars, open it up, and isolate that switch from teh rest of the wiring since it's on a different battery and voltage). Also no time to wire in the brake switch, which I think is just going to be a microswitch salvaged from I think a really old microwave? that will press against the brake arm, and be released to close the brake light circuit when the brake arm moves away from it.

Battery is recharging so no pics of it lit up yet; will get those tomorrow after work.

I changed the front wheel to a 26" so I can have front rim brakes. I can't find the wheel and tire/etc I thought I had gotten ready for this, so I either moved it or I only dreamed I got it ready. :roll: Spent way too long looking, so for now I borrowed Nishik-E's front Araya wheel with the old Landrider tire, so I dont' have to find a tire/tube/liner/slime/etc.

The change in tire forced me to remount the back end of the frnt basket off of the crossbar of the fork lowers to the crown instead. Makes the baskets tilt downward in front, but they have swivel points at all mountings so they can pivot with the suspension movements. Everything clears, so I'll live with it till I have time to make it better.

I think there was some other stuff but I've forgotten for now. :( Pics attached of a few things I tried to get shots of; I'm too tired to properly operate teh camera I think.
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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 28 2012 9:48pm

Kit still working well except for occasional speedo lack of response, where it just stops updating (though the rest of the display changes, like watts and odo). Used setting 4 today.

Same as before, * means data is calculated not readout from TWM or Fusin display.
Ride to work:
21.9Wh/mile* (20.1Wh/mile)

Ride home from work:
Wh/mile* (17.4Wh/mile)

Traffic was still nice today. Actually really light, as it's Memorial day, and also again no idiots.

Bike worked really well, actualy rides a little better with the 26" vs 24", but I really really wish I had the 24" tire in a 26", cuz it's way stickier than the old Landrider's Kenda tires. I could turn a lot more confidently at speed with the stickier tire, as I can feel the other one start slipping at more than 15-16MPH in a turn. The other tire I can turn at 18-19MPH on most of the asphalt on my work commute route, though I usually slow more than that anyway (I just don't like turns at speed on regular bikes, though it's a LOT of fun to turn really fast on CrazyBike2).

Front brakes worked well, though the pads aren't seated into this rim yet (they still ahve the surface shape of the previous install on CrazyBIke2 from a long while back). Arms are an identical but old and worn set of Avid single-digit 5's to the ones on CB2's front wheel right now. Those plus the Shimano shifter/brake lever units give really good braking, even though A) I'm using two pieces of housing in series, and B) I'm using a SHIFTER cable instead ofa brake cable (they're thinner than brake cables and thus can stretch more during hard braking).

Ride home from work today was longer than usual, as I didn't feel well (very very tired) and left early, then tried to find the Samurai Sam's for which I have a coupon for a free chicken-rice bowl...but even though they list one right by where I work, it aint' there. I rode around for a bit looking for it, before i decided it was way more work than it was worth, and I just headed home and had a nap once I got here (until the dogs woke me up to go out again). So I don't have the exact mileage, as I forgot to put the CA on there last night when doing all the other stuff; I estimated it in Google maps zoomed in to the area, and retracing what I recall of my search route. Most of the non-ride-home part was at maybe 5-10MPH.

I noted down the power usage on my new lighting, without headlight for ride to work, and with it on the way home (even though it was still broad daylight, around 530pm). I don't have the turn signals working yet, so power consumption from that isn't in there, but I did go ahead and wire the brake and tailllghts both on solid for now, so usage should be a lot lower than what it was today, even with signals and brake lights intermittently thru the ride.

No h/l:


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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 30 2012 2:20am

Power level 5 used for today's work commute. No wind to speak of either leg of the journey.

Speedo unresponsiveness continues, intermittently. Plus once, as I approached work, the battery meter on the Fusin Display unit slowly went down to blinking the last bar, even though the motor kept working the same, no change in speed, and I peeled the tape off the LED display on teh older headlight unit, which correctly showed still completely full. It stayed blinking empty, so once I got it parked in the warehouse room, I checked Volts on the Turnigy Wattmeter, whcih read 56.7V (still 9/10 full). The speed display was also still stuck at 19.8MPH, even though I was stopped, and had been below even normal walking speed for a couple of minutes or more as I put the bike away.

I power cycled it by turning off the keyswitch, waiting a couple minutes, turning the keyswitch back on, and then pressing hte Mode button to turn it back on, and the battery meter went down to emtpy again. I didnt' have time to do any more checking, before I had to get ready to start working.

When I got off work tonight, I powered it all on, and it worked normally, battery meter reading correctly. So now there is yet another mysterious issue with the Fusin Display unit, in addition to the speedo "lockups", and the now-"healed" complete system lockups I got at first.

Other than that, the motor and controller themselves keep working just fine and dandy, and I like them a lot. Good acceleration, quiet, efficient enough for my style of riding so far. PAS still works fine when I have tested it just to be sure there arent' any problems with that yet.

Same as before, * means data is calculated not readout from TWM or Fusin display.
Ride to work:
24.7Wh/mile* (22.6Wh/mile)

Ride home from work:
19.9Wh/mile* (21.7Wh/mile)

Lighting pack testing using headlight only on the way home:
No h/l:


I started to try to install a brake light switch during lunch, but didnt' ahve time to adjust it to engage and release correctly--I think it has too much hysteresis in the switch mechanics (it's a Microswitch). Probably have to move it out to ride on the far end of the brake arm. I think the wattage is lower on the ride home for lighting because it rpobably shifted and turned off the brake light, which I had full on always on the ride to work.

I had a bit of unexpected cargo on the way home, and it was a little harder to see and to steer, with it in the baskets. Just glad there was no wind, or I would probably have crashed once or twice--it makes a pretty big sailfin. :lol:
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It's a Petsafe RF-collar-tag automatically locking doggie door, clearanced out at work for an unbelievably low price of only $17. See this thread for details and possible uses.
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =2&t=40251

Oh, and I remembered what I'd forgotten about form the other night: I found out totally by accident how to use that other mechanical lock that Fusin supplied with the kit:
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When I was taking the headlight off the 40-year-old Suzuki dirtbike, I saw something familiar, and had to look again, because I thought "what is my Fusin lock doing in here?". But it is almost identical outwardly to the Fusin lock, with minor differences. In detail, there are probably a lot of differences, with teh Fusin lock probably being a lot more cheaply made--but that's ok, since I know how I can use it now, easily enough, once I can make a mounting bracket. (I had previously considered a bracket that would insert the locking pin into the disc brake rotor, and might do that instead).
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So it is basically meant to be a steering lock, if you have mounting and engagement tabs for that already welded to the fork (steerer, actually) and the headtube. Mystery solved. makes me wonder if there are a lot of Chinese bicycles that have such tabs already on there?

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