Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines/FW

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 30, 2012 10:23 pm

Most every non-bike project I worked on today didn't work as planned, so I decided to walk away from them for a while to let my mind stew on them, and worked on the stuff already planned for this bike: turn signals, brake lights, headlight mounting and switch. Fortunately it was simple enough that I got it working in only a couple of hours. :roll:

First up was the brake light, since I already had most of it done, just needed to reposition the switch and adjust it to trigger on even a tiny lever pull, but not bend the switch arm under full braking. I thought I would have to make a bracket, but it turns out the front attachment for the rear rack is in EXACTLY the right spot already....
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I bolted the microswitch thru the rack mount, and adjusted it so it's little wheel rides right on the end of the brake arm, and it does exactly what I wanted it to do, iwth a nice satisfying click on engage and release.


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Next up was the headlight mount, which turned out to be far easier than I thought. The steel headlight "case" is thin but strong, and sits easily right under the front "handle" on the front baskets.
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Since that wire handle is not much different in diameter from a seat's under-frame, I did the obvious thing and used part of a seatpost clamp to hold it on there. The only other thing was to use an old retail shelving clamp with integral bolt and weld it to the headlight casing, so I'd have something to apply the clamping force with.
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Assembled, tigthned down, aimed, and then all done. It *shouldn't* shift under vibration, but it probably will, so when it does I'll stick some foam behind/above it, against the basket/headlight spacing.
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Then I mounted this switch using some aluminum bracket salvaged from something (dunno what anymore), and ziptied it to just under the Fusin headlight/keyswitch unit, upside down under the bars (only place the wires I used would reach, as I somehow made them too short despite measuring).
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Now for the hard part--turn signals. I got the stuff off the bars on teh left to get the Fusin control cluster off, opened the FCC up, and found the signal switch wires were separate and had been cut rigth at the casing. That's ok, as I wanted them totally independent anyway. I desoldered the ones already in place and soldered in my own. Tested and verified they worked to connect the left and right side lights to the battery and light them up, then went on a hunt for an old turn signal thermal flasher I knew I had somewhere.
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After almost 45 minutes I finally found it, but it has lost it's outer casing. So I pulled a tiny "solo cup" saved long ago from some take-out place somewhere, and used that as the cover to keep it from getting wet or shorting against things. Ugly but functional.
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Wired it up between battery positive and the turn signal switch center input pin, and switched to each side...and got nothing. Retested without it, and got nothing again. But it had just worked before this! I checked with a meter and the switch has no connection to anything inside in any position. :( Opened up the FCC and found the little board had pulled loose, as I had not closed the cover casing *completely*, I guess, and it had not latched around the board on teh back of the switch to keep it from popping off under spring tension of contacts. Fixed that, and got nice blinkies as expected.

Put all the bike back together, and tested again, and realized I had wired the left and right backwards on the switch. Not really backwards, as that's the way the switch is *marked*, but isn't the way I want to *use* it. The switch is setup so that if you flick it right, it points to the left arrow for left turn signal, and vice-versa, whcih I think is dumb, and is backwards from every other control I've had for this purpose so far. So for my purposes I need it to engage the right signal when flicked right, and left when flicked left. Easy to fix, but had to swap the wires at the turn signal flasher junction (much easier than taking the FCC apart again to unsolder/resolder). Now it works as expected.


Some pics from a couple of hours ago when I finally got that far, and it was still very much light outside. Not direct sunlight, but still bright enough that shows you can still see my lighting pretty easily, even with the camera flash (taht kept going off even though it was too bright for it to do so on the auto setting it was on--this camera is really starting to act up a lot, with focus being the worst of the problems).

No lights on, no flash.
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No lights on, flash on.
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Lights on, flash on.
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Lights on, flash on, turn signal on leftside
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Same, from rear:
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Beam/spot of headlight at end of porch, a litltle more than a car length away:
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Headligth viewed from same distance (cropped to show bike better)
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Oh, I also flipped the throttle over to see if it helps with hand position/numbness. I think I would have to raise and change bars before I can really fix that problem.
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No riding today, though, so more data about that and the Fusin kit tomorrow after work.
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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 31, 2012 12:52 am

Oh, again, I forgot to install the CA, so I went back and did that, moving it from CrazyBike2, and resetting cycles/wh/total-miles after noting them down and putting the paper with it in the handlebar bag so I don't lose it like most of my notes. :lol:

Speed sensor is on left side, using the steel disc brake mounting ring to hold the magnet (3 little magnets off an old namebadge holder, stacked and sticking just magnetically to the ring).
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CA is mounted on the handlebar stem, using just it's own mounting clamp at the very widest it will open. It does kinda interfere with the key on the Fusin headlight keyswitch, but I don't need it's headlight anymore, so I can point it downward some to negate the interference.
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I may remove the Fusin lighting completely later, once the MC lighting has been proven working on actual rides. (especially since Fusin has said that this is not the lighting/throttle that would come with an actual kit; just what they had to send with this unit's Motor / Controller / Fusin Display Unit (analyst) that *are* the actual units they'd be sending).




PIcs of the lighting after it finally got completely dark here, placed in the same basic spot on the porch as the daylight pics.

First with just the Fusin kit lighting (which is way better than nothing, and is a lot better than most of the "bicycle lights" I've seen sold in various places).
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Then with the MC taillight and front markers only.
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Then those plus headlight.
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Then those plus brake light.
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Then those plus right turn signal.
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I don't think anyone that can actually get a driver's license legally will have any trouble seeing me at night. :lol:

Whether they do anything about it after they see me is probably a whole other story. :( And it doesn't change much, if anything, about daylight riding.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » May 31, 2012 2:00 am

I forgot to post taht I also tested the CA vs the Fusin display, for watts, and speed, in an off-ground wheel test at 20MPH wheel speed.

The CA read around 70W, steady, while the Fusin display read about 34W, steady, while at speed, for the several seconds I could hold the bike off ground while hodling the throttle steady and keeping my eyes on the displays.

Either the Fusin display is simply not calibrated well (at least at the lower end of the power range) or it is not designed to display battery watts used--perhaps it is displaying estimated output power to the ground from the wheel?


More testing tomorrow, on-road under loads.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 01, 2012 2:52 am

Today's ride data is frm the CA, now being used instead of the TWM. So all readouts are actual measured data, except peak watts, which is calculated from Amax * Vmin. No max speed listed today, as on both to and from legs of the trip, I did an off-ground wheelspeed test, which brought the max speed way beyond what I'd ride at.

Since I now have an exact trip distance, rather than going from memory, I will edit that into the previous data posts, along with the corrected Wh/mile calculated result.

Note that the CA reads a higher Amax than the TWM; this is consistent across everything I have tested them with. I am pretty sure (but not dead certain) that the shunt is calibrated correctly, but I will be making a temporary workaround for the too-expensive-to-replace blown fuse in the Fluke 77-III's current-measuring circuit, and verifying the CA's calibration tonight or tomorrow, if there is time.

Power level used was 6. No wind to speak of, temperatures over 100F on the way to work just prior to midday, and high 90s on the way home around 830pm.

To work
9m 43s trip time
2.288miles
14.6mph avg

21Wh/mile
0.885Ah
49.98Wh
24.23Amax*

58.3Vstart
56.8Vrest
54.7Vmin


Ride home:
10m 19s trip time
2.481miles
14.7mph avg

19.6Wh/mile
0.906Ah
49.78Wh
25.47Amax*

57Vstart
55.8Vrest
53.6Vmin


I only had one instance taht I noticed of the speedo "sticking" on the FUsin display, on the way to work, and that was as I pulled into work it stayed at 19.6MPH, and showed 430W even though I was stopped. It stayed that way as I walked the bike to the back of the store and parked it in the warehouse, noted down the CA data, etc. I turned it off via the Mode button, then back on, and it woke correctly, with zeroed readouts. I held the wheel off-ground and spun it up and let it slow, and the display correctly follwoed this.

On the way home, though, I had it happen a bunch of times. Didn't affect hte operation of the bike or motor, but if I didn't have the CA on there I would not have known what speed I was actually at. It was apparently random as to what speed it would "stick" at, just as has been the case so far. Anything from 4.2MPH to 19.8MPH, and sometimes the Watts would stick, too (sometimes those would start changing again while the speed didn't, but never vice-versa that I could see). Watts stuck at anything from 130 to 850.


As I reached home, it stuck again, at 4.2MPH and 810 watts, so after got the dogs calmed down, I took the camera out there and got a pic:
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After I rolled it inside, and got the dogs let out and whatnot, several minutes later I went back and it was still stuck that way, so I power cycled it via the Mode button, and it did reset to zero, but then the battery meter did it's little "run down" thing, where it slowly takes bars off the display and then flashes the last one, as if the battery was dead (but it isn't even close--you can see this in the CA in the same picture). I tested the motor and it worked correctly via throttle, then I power cycled the whole system via keyswitch on the headlight unit.

It did exatly teh same thing again, except that this time the motor would not start up. I retried several times and got the same result--no motor from throttle or PAS, wheel off-ground, and the battery meter counted slowly down to empty.

I power cycled it via battery disconnect-reconnect, waiting 30 seconds between, and then it operated correctly. It even shut down the system after the wheel reached 29MPH, which is much faster than the 24MPH it would limit to with teh max setting in there for that (40Kph). But the display was again stuck at 29MPH, although the battery meter was normal 5 bars. Watts was not stuck, and had gone back to zero as expected. But because the display was stuck at 29MPH, it wouldn't let me restart the motor.
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Further note: I had selected Trip Odo mode (accidentally, when trying to turn the backlight on), and it was at 2.9miles when the display "stuck" at 29. But 10 or 20 seconds later (not long after I snapped the pic above), before I power cycled the display or pressed any buttons, it updated to 3.1miles. :?

Cycling the display power via the Mode button brought the battery meter problem back again, but it did let the motor run, and reset the speed to zero as it should.
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Also note that the intermittent problem with the Up button pressing on it's own resurfaced a few times today--once while riding, once while at work notating the CA readings, and a couple of times during the testing above, after I got home from work. It had stopped a few days ago, so I had forgotten about needing to look at it until today.


Fusin is working on the problem, to see if they can replicate it there in their own units, and I will be doing more troubleshooting tonight or tomorrow if I have time.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 01, 2012 2:59 am

Regarding the bike itself, I only had one problem with the new MC lighting--very intermittently, when I engaged the brake light during or right before hitting a bump, it would sometimes turn off ALL the lighting, meaning the BMS/protection in the Ultrabattery pack used for lighting detected an overcurrent condition and shut off the pack to protect it. I examined it on the side of teh road a couple of times, but didn't find any problems--expected to find a pinched wire or something.

After the second one, I unplugged the brake light supply from the microswitch on teh brake arm, and the problem did not happen again (but of course I had no brake light). So the problem is between the brake light supply and the light itself, or in the light. Once I reached work, a mile and a half later, I hooked it back up and it worked fine just sitting there, even if I bounced on the bike to activate the suspension/mvoe stuff around.


After I gto home, I took the light off the rack to see if I had pinced a wire, but coudn't find any wiring issues. :? Meausred thigns while bending wires and bundles, etc. and nothing. I put it back on the bike but with wires rerouted to go away from the brackets holding the lights on (in case they were shorting thru nicks in the insulation I couldn't see), and rode around a little with no issues. So that was probably it; I just wish I could see the actual problem so I could fix it for real.


Other than that, the signals and brake light and headlight all worked just fine!

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 02, 2012 2:09 am

Only got a little of the testing done today (too many non-bike things happened that I hadn't planned for).

Using the Sorenson DCS-55-55 lab PSU, I tested first the CA's calibration for current and voltage, and it appears at lower currents (just under 5A) to be close enough to my Fluke 77-III DMM that I would trust it. I got interrrupted so didn't get the chance to setup a higher 40-50A load like I'd planned, just a single car headlight. It also matches everything else I have close enough, though the Turnigy Watt Meters do read high (which is about what I remember).

CA vs Fluke vs Sorenson meters for current:
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Simulataneous current readings, seriesing all the meters. In order from PSU to load: WU, Fluke, TWM1, TWM2, CA (note slight voltage drop on each succedding unit, with 16.0V at Sorenson source):
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Voltage readings, no load, Sorenson, WU, Fluke, CA.
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So I think the CA's readings can be trusted just fine, vs those of the Fusin controller and "analyst", whcih I don't have a way to check as directly as this right now. (I have a test I could do, running a known current from the Sorenson thru the shunt while the controller is on but not running the motor, simultaneously verifying the current with the Fluke, the Sorenson's meter, and the CA, but I have to wheel the bike in there again to do it, and I think open up the controller so I can access each side of the shunt).

Then I can see what wattage the Fusin "analyst" display shows, and see if that matches with the calculated wattage I should get based on the known current times the actual battery voltage on the Fusin at that moment.



Next up was some oscilloscope probing of the controller-to-display lines. It has 5 lines, the Pack Voltage In from keyswitch, Pack Voltage Out to the controller enable line, Ground, Rx from controller, and Tx to controller, for serial data transfer of displayable information and button presses for selections.

Scope is set to 1V/cm and 1ms/cm on all of the pics and vids below, with 0v at bottom of screen, except the dual-trace vid of both data lines, which is 2V/cm and 1ms/cm, with 0v for Rx on bottom of screen and 0v for Tx at center of screen.

Rx line is lower voltage (~3V p-p)
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than the Tx line (about 5Vp-p),
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even at the connector at the controller end. But it is also cleaner, with virtually no noise at the "resting voltage" of 3V, while the Tx line has a saw waveform (presumably ripple in the internal SMPS of the "analyst" display) overlaid on it's "resting voltage" of 5V.

Another noise is overlaid on that saw wave when the backlight is turned on. Neither of them is a very "deep" noise, meaning they aren't likely low enough even at minimum to trick the receiver in the controller into thinking any of the noise pulses are bits in teh data stream.
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However, I suppose it is possible that the only-3Vp-p Rx line (where data is going from controller into display) isn't high enough voltage to reliably be read by the display unit. I still have to open the display unit and check the signal at the PCB inside it, to make sure it isn't degraded by the time it reaches there).

Strings of data are sent only once every second or so, maybe a bit quicker than that (you can see their timing in the video below), whcih explains the too-infrequent displayed-information updates. Means that the MCU in the controller is doing all its' usual work plus sending out these data pulses, so maybe it isn't fast enough to update more often than that (but I sure wish it did).



Since there's no way for the display unit to get any of the power or speed data directly, the controller must be sending it in the data stream. So when those two things fail to update, either the controller is not sending it, or the display is not receiving it.

I dont know if the display directly detects battery level and displays that (as it does have it on the keyswitch input), or if it is detected by the controller and displayed there. Simple enough to test, by disconnecting the analyst from the controller, and just inputting battery and ground to it's connector, and seeing if the meter responds. We'll see next time I get the chance to do testing.


The wheel sensor is definitely always working, even when the display fails to update or just plain reads wrong. Tested with teh scope on the controller-motor connector at the controller end. Two vids here, one continuation of the other. Haven't gotten to hooking the motor's internal speed sensor to the CA yet, as experiment to see if that would work. (it should).





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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 03, 2012 2:01 am

Ride today at power level 7. No new issues, same problems with the display. No time yet to troubleshoot the problem more. Was hoping to today...


Motor and controller are still doing great, with only the typical sensorless startup problems that appear to be in the nature of sensorless hubs. As a side note, I have occasionally heard a whirr instead of a grindy sound, so I suspect that sometimes it spins up backwards just for an instant, before the controller figures that out and reverses it. Probably happens on any geared sensorless hub, but this is the first one I have had.


I apparently forgot to note down some info :roll:, so I left *** on those.
Ride to work:
***m s trip time
2.185miles
***mph max
***mph avg

21.6Wh/mile
0.834Ah
47.04Wh
24.14Amax

58.3Vstart
56.8Vrest
54.8Vmin


Ride home
***m s trip time
2.353miles
***mph max
14.6mph avg

20.7Wh/mile
0.845Ah
46.81Wh
23.98Amax

57Vstart
55.8Vrest
53.7Vmin

At least today only a few people tried to run me over. :roll: Considering the incredible amount of traffic (about 4-5x normal for a Saturday at this time), I guess that's pretty good. :/

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 08, 2012 12:17 am

Been too busy with other things to get data from the last few days' rides posted up till now.

First, some observations before I forget again:

--The PAS power level 1-9 on the Fusin display *only* seems to affect the PAS portion of hte system, not the throttle. If you use the throttle you have the full range of power regardless of what setting that PAS level is on, *except* if you set it to 0, where it turns off both PAS and throttle. I see no effective difference in max watts or max amps regardless of PAS setting when using the throttle, in any of the commutes so far.

However, if only using PAS to control the motor, that setting most definitely makes a difference. AFAICT, it is essentially telling the PAS what "throttle" level you want when pedalling. If you set it to 1, it's kinda like having a little tailwind, and you hardly notice it on level ground when it kicks in (assuming you have the bike in the right gear for the speed you're starting at--if you forgot to downshift when you stopped, you'll feel it for sure). Set to 9, it's like suddenly getting WOT once it kicks in, and is quite disconcerting if you're not expecting it (I keep forgetting this thing has PAS, as I never had taht before).

--PAS is great, for the most part, but it needs much finer control, and not just an on/off sensing ability, and it needs to have zero effective delay between stopping pedalling and stopping motor power--it takes almost a second to stop the motor now, and if you are not yet used to this delay, and planning for it, you could put yourself in harm's way.

The finer control needed is to basically sense actual torque on the pedal system, and apply power to the motor based on that. This would totally negate even having to have the power level setting in the Fusin display at all, as it could just follow your legs--pedal hard and it gives you full assist, spin your feet around like pushing a feather and you get minimum assist (regardless of speed at which you are pedalling).

But this will require a different kind of sensor than the standard PAS it comes with, and probably reprogramming the controller itself to work with such a thing, and that's gonna have to be done by Fusin (if they care to do so--it might not be cost-effective for them).



So here's the last three work commutes, including today. Each trip was at successifly higher PAS power level setting, though I am using the throttle and not PAS to ride with. (basically am not pedalling unless absolutely needed, which is very rare). Unfortunately I don't remember the wind conditions/etc. now, so I'm not sure why there is such a discrepancy between some legs of some trips regarding power levels vs otherwise identical conditions. I am also unsure why the trip distance is arounda tenth of a mile or more different on some of the days, when I am riding the exact same path each time. :( All data is from the LS-CA-SA, rather than the still-unreliable Fusin display.


06-04-12 To Work (PAS level 8)
8m 47s trip time
2.332miles
21.1mph max
15.9mph avg

25.9Wh/mile
1.078Ah
60.276Wh
28.18Amax

58.3Vstart
56.7Vrest
54.7Vmin

06-04-12 Back Home (PAS level 8)
9m 34s trip time
2.352miles
20.5mph max
14.7mph avg

20.3Wh/mile
0.863Ah
47.706Wh
23.19Amax

56.8Vstart
55.8Vrest
53.7Vmin

06-05-12 To Work (PAS level 9)
8m 45s trip time
2.197miles
21.6mph max
15mph avg

23.1Wh/mile
0.899Ah
50.714Wh
25.02Amax

58.3Vstart
56.8Vrest
54.9Vmin

06-05-12 Back Home (PAS level 9) (note that this trip I was carrying a 30lb bag of dog food on the front rack, as well as a 10lb water pump/motor, in addition to the usual stuff. Because of the weight on the front it was hard to steer so I rode slower by a couple MPH and I took a couple of short detours around higher traffic areas).
10m 59s trip time
2.348miles
22mph max
12.8mph avg

24.7Wh/mile
1.015Ah
57.957Wh
24.16Amax

56.9Vstart
55.7Vrest
53.5Vmin


06-07-12 To Work (PAS level 9):
8m 26s trip time
2.186miles
21.4mph max
15.3mph avg

24.6Wh/mile
0.957Ah
53.760Wh
24.27Amax

58.3Vstart
56.7Vrest
54.0Vmin

06-07-12 Back Home (PAS level 9) (note there were two major accidents blocking my normal route back home, so ride was longer, with more stupid people who were also trying to find ways around the blockages). (note: I forgot to reset the CA after noting down the to-work stuff above, so the back-home data is a continuation of that).
21m 36s trip time
3.216miles
23.5mph max
14.8mph avg

22.4Wh/mile
2.091Ah
116.16Wh
24.5Amax

56.9Vstart
55.5Vrest
53Vmin


As usual, the motor and controller are operating very well and reliably, and quietly.

Only the Fusin display "analyst" is not useful at this time, and I suspect it is actually a communication fault between it and the controller causing the problems. I have yet to have time to get back to the troubleshooting.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 11, 2012 3:38 am

6-9-12, still operating ok, other than the display issues. In this hot weather (100F to 105F+), the motor is still only warm, checked at various times during and after the ride. Temperature seems to peak about 4-5 minutes after I stop at the end of the ride, based solely on feel. (want to install a thermal sensor once I have an excuse to open up the motor). Controller gets warm enough to notice with my knee resting against it, but that's all.

Using just PAS power level 1, still no pedalling.
work
8m 21s trip time
2.197miles
22.8mph max
15.7mph avg

24Wh/mile
0.937Ah
52.764Wh
24.58Amax

58.3Vstart
56.8Vrest
54.6Vmin

home
10m 0s trip time
2.352miles
20.9mph max
14.1mph avg

24.1Wh/mile
1.028Ah
56.07Wh
23.46Amax

57Vstart
55.7Vrest
53.3Vmin





6-10-12, still working ok.

Using just PAS power level 1, still no pedalling. Was a lot of wind on the way to work.

work
8m 49s trip time
2.2miles
20.6mph max
14.9mph avg

26.3Wh/mile
1.027Ah
57.343Wh
24.29Amax

58.3Vstart
56.7Vrest
54.4Vmin


home
10m 4s trip time
2.366miles
20.3mph max
14.1mph avg

21.3Wh/mile
0.915Ah
50.398Wh
23.8Amax

56.9Vstart
55.6Vrest
53.4Vmin


68 miles total so far on this motor and bike, so maybe 13% of the way to 500 miles (target for basic review).

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by Herrsprocket » Jun 12, 2012 1:14 pm

I appreciate all the great feedback on the performance levels and the variety of testing you are putting this kit through, but,,, I'm so very anxious to see what is on the inside of the motor by you to having a look at the guts of this thing. Ya know, phase wire size, the quality of the inner rings and the planets (materials, width of the planet gears), stuff like that. 8)

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 12, 2012 2:00 pm

That will be coming soon-ish. I have to have time to make the tool to do so, and the time to fix anythign I screw up in opening it or taking it off the bike or putting it back on, before needing it for work again. Right now DayGlo Avenger and CrazyBike2 are in experimental testing "modes" right now, and I wouldn't yet trust either one for my work commute--they *should* work, but if they didn't, I'd be walking the bike and me the rest of the way to work in 100F+ heat. So at least one of the bikes has to be in "working mode" before I can experiment with another one. ;)

Phase wire size is probably 14g at best, probably 16g or less, given the thinness of the whole power/sensor cable from the motor and the size of the pins it has.


Speaking of data collection, I didn't get any for yesterday's ride, as I forgot to reset the CA before I left, and since I charge thru it (monitored as regen) the Ah used started as negative, and other stuff would've required math to figure out, so I just discarded the whole day's ride data set. Was very windy on the wya to work, so I expect if I'd done it right instead, Wh/mile wouldve been up near 26 or more.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 13, 2012 4:02 am

I again forgot to reset the CA, so no ride data from today. :roll:



Just a note to myself for another set of experiments to perform after the review phase, as described in another thread where I was thinking about it:
dogman wrote:Typically, the gearmotor's freewheel makes sensorless operation a problem. They will run sensorless, but starting them is a problem unless the freewheel clutch is modified to locked, non freewheeling.
Fusin's new kit is sensorless, and it uses a geared freewheeling motor. Seems to work fine, with the caveat that just like any other sensorless motor, it sometimes gets a slightly "off" startup event and you ahve to let the throttle off and retry, which works 99% of the time. Maybe once I had to retry twice, in the time I've been testing the kit so far.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =4&t=39877
Note that because it is a freewheeling motor, then this problem happens even if coasting at high speeds, nto just from a stop. If it were nonfreewheeling, it would only happen from a stop.

I haven't had the time to try yet, but my intent is to try their new sensorless controller on their old motors, too, which are also freewheeling geared motors. (well, two of the three I have here are; I'll also want to try it with the non-freewheeling geared one). I expect the startup issues will be identical with the two freewheeling ones, and that only with the nonfreewheeling one will the problem go away and only then if I am already moving.


(theoretically, one nice thing about a sensorless controller and a non-freewheeling motor is that you have instant full-power reverse cababilty, simply by pushing the bike backwards with your feet first and then engaging the throttle--I will test that theory with the non-fw fusin).

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 14, 2012 5:14 am

Well, I tested over a dozen tries of rolling the bike backwards and then engaging throttle, and it always starts the motor forwards, even when it misfires, so I guess that's taht for "reverse" feature--just wishful thinking.


Today I had to pickup some scrapped bits of a dsplay from work, so I took the Bell flatbed trailer using this bike. Handles fine with trailer on there, almost as if it wasnt' there, even when loaded with about 30lbs of stuff (about what the trailer weighs, I guess, so 60lbs-ish extra load on the bike).

I forgot again to reset the CA for the trip there, empty, but I did get the data fro the tirp back. Was very windy from various directions dpending on where I was in the trip, so that makes it really hard to know if the Wh/Ah usage is higher from that or from the trailer pulling.

Same riding as normal, only difference was the trailer. Which I forgot to take pics of before unloading and disconnecting it. :( I did ride a little slower in some parts due to unusual amounts of traffic, so overall speed average is lower.


10m 13s trip time
2.336miles
20.2mph max
13.7mph avg

27.2Wh/mile
1.160Ah
64.183Wh
24.93Amax

57.0Vstart
55.4Vrest
53.1Vmin

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 15, 2012 7:35 am

No work ride data today; has been about the same each ride and nothing different this time, except the wheel has been feeling a little odd for a while and I decided to see why when I got home. The spokes were even looser than when I got the wheel (since I did not re-true or retension the wheel, wanting to see if these 14G spokes or the typical rim would cause problems because of it--and yes, they did). When I started turning each nipple 1/4 turn at a time to retension the wheel, I found one of the nipples wouldn't tension at all and was stripped out, probably from the wheel not being tensioned enough, letting the nipple turn and eventually rattle/rub threads/etc., but could've been that way from the factory it was made at.

Fortunately I had some 14G nipples and spokes in my junk box, probably from the original 36V Fusin wheel I got from Dogman way back, which I bent the rim on in a skid/crash on DayGlo Avenger, and eventually unlaced that Fusin from the rim and put it in a 24" for CrazyBike2, leaving it's spokes and nipples available for future spares for situations like this one.

Anyhow, since the nipple had to be replaced, I'd have to take the tire at least loose, so I figured I'd also change over to the Infinity Armadillo-type tires from Ohzee here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 72#p595972
and test them out on this bike in place of the torn-sidewall tire I've been using on the rear,
DSC06863.JPG
DSC06863.JPG (38.07 KiB) Viewed 2676 times
and the not-too-grippy semi-knobbyish old Landrider tire on the front (which is actually the whole front wheel from the Nishik-E).

So I pulled the whole rear wheel off to do that. While I was at it, I pulled the cassette off and looked around at my tubing/pipes to see if any of them were the right diameter to make that tool needed to remove the cover of this Fusin motor, and unfortunatley I don't have anything large enough that isn't far too large. :( I'll have to think of a way to do it some other way. I also noted that I will likely have to take the freewheel mechanism off first, as it may be in the way of the cover coming up (if it is attached to the axle and not the cover; I don't know; shoudl be the cover but I can't see in there without taking one or the other off). It, too, would require a special tool to take it out, so hopefully it's part of the cover. No more time to spend on that part today.

So no peeking inside the motor yet. :(


I started to just replace the stripped nipple...then I thought, if I'm going to true this up and replace the nipple to make a better wheel, why don't I just go ahead and relace the whole friggin' wheel, since it's laced offset by one (small space over valve instead of big) and it's laced wrong (no over-under interleaving of spokes). Then it might stand a chance of surviving these potholey roads without bending up as easily. I'm pretty sure that if I didn't have the minimal rear suspension, the rim would already be trashed because of the wheel being so loose and laced wrong when I got it. As it was, it started out being out of round, possibly with a flat spot already on the rim (hard to tell when I originally checked it, and nearly impossible to see in the video).

Proceeded to unlace the wheel, and mark it to relace correctly. Got it all off and then about 1/4 laced (first 9 on the disc side when Hachi decided I'd been at it too long (couple of hours at this point) and wanted attention. So I gestured her over and bent forward to scratch her chin, and almost shiskebobed my eye on a spoke. :shock:

That really really hurts.

I got lucky and missed the eye and only got the corner of the lower eyelid, but my left eye still keeps tearing up and sorta feels like I have a splinter in it, though there' snothing there I can see, with a mirror and a light. I tried to take a pic but I can't really seem to hold the camera, mirror, and light well enough to get a focus on it. Maybe later when I'm not so tired and shaky.


Eventually I went back to the wheel, and finished lacing and mostly truing it. Espeicaly happy that the valve hole is now in the open space.
DSC06861.JPG
DSC06861.JPG (48.67 KiB) Viewed 2676 times
Can't fix the out-of round problem without screwing up side-to-side too much, and can't fix the side-to-side completely. Guess the rim's already bent too much, or I am just not able to concentrate well enough to figure it out.

Installed the tube and rim and then aired it up, and I got about 40-45PSI when suddenly it started hissing like the airhose came off the stem, but it was unfortunatley the actual stem that was leaking. Again.
DSC06860.JPG
DSC06860.JPG (22.83 KiB) Viewed 2676 times
I'm realy really sick and tired of blown up ruptured herniated violated crappily made valve stems on tubes. I mean, I can patch most any place on a tube except there, and be sure it will hold at least for a while. But a stem.... :(

Anyway, that's where i finally gave up, after 5 or 6 hours of trying to do all that plus holding my eye while being drowned in doggie slobber as Hachi and Nana tried to make it all better.
DSC06862.JPG
DSC06862.JPG (69.41 KiB) Viewed 2676 times
I gotta take a nap soon cuz I am really really tired, and then I gotta go up to work and pick up two 35lb bags of dog food that I couldn't take home last night, not having the trailer or anyplace on the Fusin test bike to haul them on. No way they'll work on the front baskets; I alrady tried that with a single smaller bag a few days ago, and that was not much fun getting home. So this bike won't be taking them home; I'll have to use CrazyBIke2 to do it. Well, it's built for that, so at least I know it'll work. At least, as well as it always has. I hope.

More on this bike later, when I get time.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 16, 2012 5:11 am

I changed the tube out (didnt' have any more good ones, so had to patch an old worn one, unfortunatley a thin one), and finished more micro-adjustments to the side-to-side truing after prying at the spokes to relieve tension, so now the wheel should be within 1mm total side-to-side, though the rim is still out of round by at least a couple of mm or more in spots. :(

I was going to try to patch the stem on the other tube and use heatshrink over the patch to hold it on, but I can't find the HS I know I have that's sized right for that (I just used some a month ro two ago on a tube from CB2!). So for now I just cut a slice out of a totally-split-open tube kept for "parts", and used rubber cement on it and on the valve stem to glue it on there good. HOpefully I will find the HS and then I'll put it on htere, and can reuse this otherwise-nice thick tube (though I will have to enlarge the valve hole on whatever rim I use it with).


So back to commuting with this tomorrow, as long as the tire still holds air by the time I need to leave.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 17, 2012 2:18 am

Well, I guess my relacing is *more* out of round than it was before, or at least, more in a single spot. It feels like I'm riding on a widely-spaced washboard as the wheel rotates and goes up and down. I sat down to try to fix it earlier, and didn't even get the spoke tool out before I dozed off sitting there. :( Now my almost-shiskebab'd left eye (and right elbow, which I banged so hard on something last night that I couldn't even feel my hand for several minutes) is throbbing again, so I can't really concentrate on it (or much of anythign else...been a challenge working today).


I *think* the ride was better on the new tire, but hard to tell till I can fix the out-of-roundness. It did brake better, as side-to-side is much truer than before, so pads could be set closer and more correctly parallel, and the wheel felt less flexy especially in turns, as it is tensioned much better (though possibly still not "enough").

Overall it's more success than failure, so far, but I *have* to fix the out-of-roundness as soon as I have another couple of hours (at least) to fiddle with it, in case I screw it up worse somehow.

I will have to post the ride data later as I don't rmember where I set the paper I wrote it on. :(

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 21, 2012 1:39 am

I think this is the ride data (hard to read my writing for hte date):
to work
8m 46s trip time
2.193miles
21.5mph max
15mph avg

26.1Wh/mile
1.018Ah
57.078Wh
26.3Amax

58.0Vstart
56.5Vrest
54.3Vmin

to home
10m 6s trip time
2.355miles
21.6mph max
13.4mph avg

23.9Wh/mile
0.981Ah
53.811Wh
24.34Amax

56.7Vstart
55.5Vrest
53.2Vmin

SInce then I've done more work commutes, including one yesterday hauling the trailer again, full of 130lbs of dog food and groceries (plus the 30-ish lbs of trailer itself) on the way home. Typically Wh/mile seems to be around 25-26 for the commutes, with a little wind like we've been having. When there isnt' any wind, it's more like 22-23Wh/mile. With the trailer, even at about 3MPH less top speed most of the way, and mabye 2MPH less average speed, it was still almost 30Wh/mile. (I wrote the stats down for thesse trips on my work schedule but I dont' know where I put it--maybe left it at work).


Motor got more than a little warm by the time I got home with the food, running it at 700-900W pretty frequently for the start/stop/acceleration of traffic, but it wasn't really hot, despite the 95F+ night air.

Motor and controller still working very well, but the Fusin analyst display comm problem is still causing real issues. The main danger is that when I am riding along and suddenly the speed display goes up to some ridiculous number (45MPH is the fastest I have seen so far, when I am not even going 20MPH), the display disables the controller because it's faster than it's limiter is set to. If I'm in traffic, this means a sudden loss of power *and* I have to stop paying attention to the road long enough to power cycle the controller so it will be reset.

Also when I have to stop for some reason, usually a traffic light or stop sign, the same thing can happen.

I"m going to disconnect the speed sensor wire from the wheel, to see if that will allow it to still operate and use the analyst display/control for it's power-setting ability and whatnot, while completely disabling the speed limitation stuff so it can't leave me worse than powerless in traffic.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 21, 2012 2:24 am

Today I was rebuilding the rear wheel again, because a nipple sheared off it's top. :shock:

I've never seen that happen before, even when I had an already very-high-tension wheel get pulled apart from a derailed chain on my old version of CrazyBike2--it almost ripped the nipples thru the steel rim, but it didn't break them.


But this wasn't just one of them. First, just the one, that broke I guess while it was sitting there overnight, as it wasn't broken when I charged the bike last night. I saw it today when I was putting the charger away, and rechecking the battery balance, taking the ammocan pack off the bike to see what the cells each read (it's balanced still very well, within 0.01V even though I only bulk charge and don't do any balancing). The spoke was just hanging there, and I wondered, what the heck?! and saw this:
DSC06867.JPG
DSC06867.JPG (25.56 KiB) Viewed 2321 times
I examined all the nipples, and saw no others with problems. Then I squeezed pairs of spokes, and no problems at first, but the second round of that caused another to break! It was very loud, sort of a clank as the tension was released.
DSC06869.JPG
DSC06869.JPG (28.89 KiB) Viewed 2321 times
So I took the wheel off, the tire and tube and rim strip off the wheel, and replaced those nipples with some off of 14g spokes that Ianmcnally had sent me, originaly bought for a Crystalyte motor but I guess never used.

Started retensioning everything, because now the wheel was really messed up for side-to-side and roundness. Got almost perfect roundness, within 1mm highest to lowest, and then CLANK! another nipple let go. I guess I had spent 2-3 hours on it at this point, at least, off and on between canus interruptus slobberus sessions.
DSC06871.JPG
DSC06871.JPG (47.78 KiB) Viewed 2321 times

I was really not happy by now. I took a wrench and put it between spoke pairs and started twisting to both relieve tension and to break any more weak nipples before I have to ride the thing. :roll:

Nothing else broke. So I replaced the third one, and retensioned everything again, and spent at least another hour or two or more retruing it AGAIN. I had the thought several times that I shoudl probably just pull ALL the Fusin-supplied nipples off and replace them with the ones from Ianmcnally, but somehow I decided I'd be adventurous, and call it part of the experiment to see how long the rest of them last now that they're acutally part of a properly-tensioned wheel. :lol:

Note that the angles aren't even all that extreme:
DSC06870.JPG
DSC06870.JPG (25.02 KiB) Viewed 2321 times

Now the wheel is almost normal, but it does have a slightly flatter area due to damage from not being laced or tensioned properly from the factory. I can live with it; it's nto that noticeable during a ride even at 20MPH--the roads themselves are much worse than the wheel is, at this point.


So there's one more area Fusin needs to improve on--QC checking the parts used to lace their wheels--I have at least 3 out of 36 nipples that had some sort of fracture fault in the brass, from whatever cause, that couldn't handle even the normal tension of a decently-laced wheel and the weight of a pretty normal ebike and rider. (I ahve placed no undue loads on the motor wheel itself; all cargo has been on the trailer or on my regular front bicycle wheel off the Nishik-E, which is performing perfectly fine as expected, an the motor wheel is on a suspension swingarm).

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 21, 2012 3:25 am

I have been pondering again.


I think Fusin needs to redesign the controller and display so that the display does not simply cut off the controller as soon as it's speed limit is reached, but instead feathers back the throttle, so that it keeps power applied but only enough to maintain the speed at or below the limit. Perhaps it could begin feathering back as it approaches that speed limit, but I myself wouldn't want that, as it means slower acceleration which could mean the same kind of traffic danger as simply having the power cut off completely can cause.

Right now, as best as I can determine, the cotnroller is reading the speed and the current, and sending that data serially to the display unit in bursts around a second or two apart.

When the communication is interrupted for whatever reason, the display fails to update. Sometimes, it seems to lock up because of this, and cease to acquire or respond to any new data. Sometimes, it locks up for a short time (several seconds to well over a minute) and then respond again, only instead of updating with the new data, it *adds* the new data to the old data--I'm not sure how this could happen, but it's the only explanation I have for the absurd speed readings it sometimes gets, such as 45MPH when I'm not even going 20, or sometimes I'll see 25MPH when I hadn't even reached 10mPH yet at a startup, but the system cut out because it thinks it exceeded the speed limit set in it.

I still need to do some more work on the communications problem itself, but have not had time when I was physically and mentally capable of it. I usually only get one of the three at a time these days, sometimes two, rarely three.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 22, 2012 12:53 am

I unplugged the speed sensor at the input to the controller, which also disconnects it from the display analyst thingy. Everything still works as expected, with of course no speed display on there. Figured that'd take care of the problem of it disabling the controller due to false overspeed indications.

Nope. Well, yes it did stop that, but that isnt apparently the only thing that causes it--I just don't know what else could. :(


Unlike previous rides, where at least a couple of times on each leg of the trip it would fail to start or to cut out, due to false overspeed, this time it only cut out once, but naturally it was when I was about to make a right turn with a bunch of cars behind me (some of which were also turning. I didnt' have a place to pull off out of the way so I just stood on the pedals and cranked to get going a bit (I keep it in a lower gear, middle in front and largest in back, so I can actually help it start going a little when this happens). then keyswitch power cycled it, pressed the mode button to turn it on, and throttled up.

Unfortunately that means I don't know what it said on the display. I wish I had been able to just stay where I was and look at hte display to see if there was some other error condition, or if perhaps it is still getting a false speed signal somehow, causing the problem to continue. The only other thing I'm aware of that could shut off the unit is the ebrake signal, but it definitely wasn't that, or it would have not worked after power cycling it either--if the ebrake was stuck on, it would have errored out until it was released and re-power cycled (I've done that before, when I was holidng hte brake as I turned it on).


Anyway, so my next solution is that I'll re-hook up the speed wire, but I'm going to just take that loop of wire that passes the keyswitch enable line up to the analyst, and connect it to the enable pad of the controller in place of the wire from the analyst. Then I can keep it all on there and use it if I want, including hte power level changing buttons for PAS, but will never have to worry about the display analyst thingy shutting the controller off.


Thankfully I have tomorrow off, and so can probably do this tonight if I wake up in time from the involuntary nap I can feel coming. Otherwise, maybe tomorrow before I head out on a shopping trip to American Foods in Mesa, where they have lots of good but cheap food (mostly restaurant and other large-size packages; cans of various things the size of my head for $1.50-$3, for instance).

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 22, 2012 6:24 pm

Just for giggles I tried to test an MXUS DD motor with this controller, since it's sensorless, but it didnt' work.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 84#p600184
explains why I think it didn't, but basically BEMF from the MXUS at it's lower speeds is probably insufficient for the hall-emulator PCB in the Fusin controller to create a usable hall signal from.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 24, 2012 10:45 pm

On my wya to work today, the display cut power to the controller multiple times, which was the last straw. :(

I was able to finally look at it a few of those times, with little traffic on the roads, and each time it was flashing the battery level meter on "empty", even though it is fully charged (or nearly so, not even 0.1Ah out of the 10Ah pack used up the first time it did this, and not even 1Ah used the last time just before pulling into work).


So at lunch instead of eating I cut the wire on the display connector that feeds the power back to the controller's enable line, and connected the controller side of that wire directly to the power line to the display on that connector, so that anytime the keyswitch on the headlight assembly is on, the controller is on. Display can now do whatever malfunction it likes and it won't shut the cotnroler off. :lol:


I reconnected th speedo sensor wire to the controlelr/analyst, so that I will get the speed display there, too, if i want it. Not much use isnce the display doesn't update it all the time, and it is such a slow update anyway.


I have scheduled a vacation for a week starting July 8th, so hopefully I will have time to catch up on a lot of projects, including troubleshooting the lockups that I think are likely comm error issues. Only thing I have to do before doing projects is move my bedroom from the room I'm currently in to one on the opposite end of the house (as it is easier to cool that room), which is at least a whole day's project, maybe two, shuffling all the stuff around including the internet cabling. Gonna confuse the dogs for a while, I bet.

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 27, 2012 1:43 am

I forgot to post last night (thought I did, maybe I typed it up and didn't save it?) that the motor and controller system worked perfectly after the above mod, no cutouts, however the BIKE sucked.

I suspect someone messed with it, because I had the following problems found when I was leaving work, none of which were a problem when I got there:
--front wheel QR lever was undone and unscrewed several turns.
--front left brake pad was UPSIDE DOWN and loose.
--brake switch on rear was loose, flopping around.
--rear derailer was severely misadjusted, would not stay on a gear.
--turn signal flasher wouldn't engage correctly because the little holder I have it in was crushed.
--headlight wire was pulled off the switch, and the switch itself broken, body pulled off the bracket I'd mounted it on.
--front tire extremely low
--front shock completely airless.
--something else but I can't remember right now.

All were relatively easy to fix or to work around, except the shock, as I can't hand pump it up--the pumphead won't fit down into the well to go over the valve stem. I have to use the electric pump at home for that. The shock does lose a little air each day but I had just aired it up the day before, and when i aired it up after getting home it did not lose any more than normal thru today. So someone probably let the air out deliberately.

Same with the tire, except I could hand pump taht up fine.

Headlight swithc easly bypassed by twisting the wires together. QR fork tightned, brake pad reinstalled correctly and aligned/tightened. Rear Brake switch tightened up. Uncrumpled the plastic holder for the blinker, and it works ok, though not as well as before. I think the bimetallic sheets of the blinker itself are slightly bent or misaligned.

Have to replace the headlight swithc, maybe tonight or tomorrow. I didn't have the camera with me to get pics before fixing everything so I could ride home, so I only have a pic taken tonight of the broken switch.
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DSC06872.JPG (40.69 KiB) Viewed 2434 times
What bothers me is that I don't know anyone I work with that dislikes me at all, much less enough to try to kill me (by loosening the front wheel and the brake pad, which could've jammed in the wheel and locked it, with the QR loose).

So that means it was probably a customer, and I don't know any of them that dislike me that much either. Or just some random person that likes to screw around with cyclists or ebikers. But it's in the store, in the warehouse in back. I think if it were out front where everyone can see it it might've not happened, but in the back room there's no one to see, most of the time.



Tonight I put the motro thru it's most severe test so far--the same one that overheated the old 36V version 1 Fusin: riding slowly, 8-12MPH, heavy load on the bike, frequent stops/starts. Had about 72lbs of dog food on the bike--6 on the rear rack on top of the ammocan pack, and the rest on and in the front baskets.

Was not really a smart thing to do, as I could not actually "ride" the bike normallly--any kind of turn was nearly disastrous, and I dropped the bike twice when I lost my grip on the bars. I just stepped off so didn't get hurt, but both times I had to take the stuff off the bike, put it upright against a pole and tie the brake handles down to keep it from rolling, then relaod everything and restrap it down. But I couldn't wait on the food--it was a "get it now or never" super deal, and is why i really like having the ability to haul such cargo on CrazyBike2. I just never know when this kind of thing will come up.

I had to do what I never lke doing, and rode the sidewalks almost all teh way home--only after I crossed Dunlap was I on roads, and that's almost no traffic (one car passed me). 1/8 mile of parking lots, and the rest sidewalk.


Made it home ok, no damage to cargo or bike, other than more scratches and little dings from the fall-overs. Oh, and the CA's button connector somehow got knocked loose in one of hte falls, so I had to open it up and reseat it (not off all the way, just enough to mae the buttons not work).

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by GrayKard » Jun 27, 2012 4:29 pm

Damn, sorry to hear that someone vandalized your bike while at work. Need a security camera back there in the storeroom.

Great review, keep it coming! :D

Gary

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Re: Fusin 1000W peak Geared Hubmotor kit w/ Cassette Splines

Post by amberwolf » Jun 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Thanks--we do have one...just not at the end I have to park the bike at. When parked out front, it's right in the view of two cameras--but it's all the people going by since it's right next to the doors that do more to keep people from messing with it. But the higher-ups that manage multiple stores want it parked inside the store nowadays (used to be they didn't want it taking up space inside).

Anyway, it just teaches me to be vigilant about checking things before a ride.

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