EM3EV DD 500W Kit - 50km

Hey, this are my first impressions on a EM3EV kit after 3 weeks of usage.

First of all here's what I bought:

*50V 12.3Ah Samsung Triangle Pack
*500W Direct Drive Kit
- 26" Wheel
- Rear motor 305rpm (244rpm loaded) @36V
- Controller Type 9FET 30A w/EB3 Program Cable
*add to this spare throttle, brakes and a few other bits'n pieces

About the shipping (to France), something went massively wrong as the box got mangled, every packing inside torn/cut, the DH19 wheel slightly bent. We were very lucky that no major parts broke, but most got at least a hit or two, even the battery. Since the packing was so badly torn and yet most things were not badly damaged I can only assume things got bad closer to destination, maybe even after/during customs in Fr. I was raging, but since then it seems no major harm was done. The shipping option on EM3EV was Speedpost Battery, I doubt it can be worse.

Now, about the bike. Pic below with everything mounted:

*the bike is full aluminum frame, 27.5kg with the electric. The weight is significant, but nothing like amazon-based or dutch-frame bikes one can buy in Europe from a store.

*dynamics: I find I can take turns slightly slower than before. The tires are however mountain-bike Michelin-s, so not adapted to street use. The bike being heavier slides on the bumps on the edge of the tire. I will update the dynamics bit after trying with a pair of Schwalbe Marathon. I'd say that the bike still works like a bike, I can do forest trails, keep balance at close to zero speed and steer around an unexpected hole in the road at 25km/h (16mph)

*first start: I couldn't erase the grin of my face for many days. The torque is just awesome. First try after mounting the system in the living room I turned the bike with wheels the right side down, jumped on, propped my back against the saddle, front brake on (not ebrake) and I pinched the throttle: burnout on the carpet! That's some serious torque, but since then I had to do all testing outside or my lady would sent me sleep in the doghouse.

*full power testing: all grins and awesomeness. The max the controller current is 30A, but I don't think I ever reached that. Starting from standstill, only pinching the throttle almost throws me off (me=150pounds). Throttling from 20kph boosts quickly to 40-something, mere seconds. A 300m 10% hill next to my home is a breeze. I find it so amazing that everybody should have one. The eBike system removes the difficulty from two parts of biking: starts and hills.

*making it road-legal for Europe: to keep it short, in order for a bike to be legal in Europe as far as I read it has to: be PAS-only, 250W at the wheel and not assist over 25km/h. Considering the EB3 controller is programmable some of these restrictions are easy to comply with:
*250W - just limit the DC current in the battery. This is not exact science since the voltage roams between slightly above to somewhat below 50V. I just took 50V. Then the 250W needs to be at the wheel, so the DC current should account for the inefficiencies of the inverter and motor. I haven't done any of that and chose 5A limit on DC. It's conservative, I'll try to relax this as time goes by.
*25km/h - with this particular winding and 50V I find that 50% speed setting in the controller roughly corresponds to 26-28km/h. The wheels are 26" with 1.95 tire wall.
*PAS - EM3EV's PAS is integrated with a 36V battery SOC indicator. This is unfortunate, since they only sell 50V batteries As such I took a PAS sensor from ebay and it'll have to be soldered on the PCB of the controller. I'll post when it's done.

*recovery isn't active yet due to incompatibility between the bike and eBrakes, TBD when ready

User's thoughts on the system:

*cellman's kit breathes quality. Even though the packing was battered almost all parts arrived untouched. The connectors click together, I picked the default bullets for AC and Anderson for the rest.

*In the box there was no wiring diagram, but it wasn't needed as any connector can only fit to its pair.

*The programming tools for the EB3 (both original and modded XPD) are awesome and for someone that has an idea of electricity they're quite easy to grasp.


Day to day limited @250W DC:

*it really makes a difference to how I use the bike. I have to pedal, it's not powerful enough to push by itself up the 10% hill. I never wanted a eScooter, so it's ok. I go up hat hill @17kph (10mph) with moderate pedaling, about twice my previous mountain-bike speed and slightly faster than the lycra speed while not sweating at all.

*I haven't charged the battery yet... because it's still going strong. I have some 30km on board, most on 250W limitation and it reads above 54V.

*I don't think a torque arm would be useful, at least not at 250W.


Battery disconnected (to simulate SOC=0%):

*so with only pedal power, the cruise speed on flats is ~20kph, 30kph possible.

*The cogging torque I was a bit afraid isn't that bad. It's dampened by the 200 pounds of me+bike. So in case one's battery runs flat the bike can be used like a bike. Just make sure there's no steep hill between you and the outlet as you'll have to work hard for it.

Future:
*tweak the PAS
*setup regen
*change tires
*do a proper endurance run; this can be hard because as the old saying says "Winter is comin'". I'm quite optimistic that it would to do 60-80km @250W limit. A CA would have helped, if there's anyone in Paris willing to borrow one just PM

That's about it for now. All the objectives were attained for the first few weeks: managed to build an ebike that is better and cheaper than what can be bought in a store. Far better, not much cheaper, but still... And it just is very very fun. I'm not going to give up the lycra any time soon, but this is something else, much more practical for day to day. I'm going to press anyone I know to build one and if we find some arrangement so that the packaging won't be shattered I I highly recommend EM3EV's DD kit.

Update1: Regen is working. On "soft" setting in controller (XPD) it slows the bike down quite fast from 25 to about 15km/h. For my weight the "soft" setting seems too little, it probably goes higher without breaking grip (at least in straight line and dry).

Update 2 40km:
* recovery works well as "engine brake". The "Moderate" setting in XPD is the max that I would consider acceptable for under 30km/h average city speed.
* "Hard" is a bit much, if I hit the brakes in a curve @20kph the bike in unstable and somewhat scary. Off-road "hard" isn't an option at all, the wheel just locks up.

About the shipping woes, the parts that got (ever so slightly) damaged are taken care of by cellman. As it goes, I changed the "sticky" throttle with a spare and now all works perfectly.

Battery voltage log:
*@shipping 55.8V
*@20km 52.8V
*@40km 51.4V
...what would be the Vdcmin (SOC=0%)? I imagine 3V x 14S = 42V based on the Samsung 22F cell datasheet.

Heating on the 10% incline hill: since the bike is limited to 5.4Adc (real value) there's not much power flowing thru the system. Using the finger-test on the top of the hill @full thottle the controller that is placed in the battery bag is barely warm. The motor is ice cold, maybe also because it's 5-10°C in the morning.

Battery power @cold 5°C : using the throttle when the battery is cold, the assistance is perceptibly lower even inside the 5.4A restriction. It has been tried "to see what happens", but as a best practice I would advice to keep the battery warm-ish if one needs lots of power from the first couple of minutes. After 3-5mn running (accel/regen/coasting) it seemed to heat enough to provide full performance.

Hey, I bought almost the same kit as you and am new to the world of E-bikes.
I am moderately competent at messing around with both mechanics and electronics, but I want to make sure that I set up my bike correctly, so that it is safe to ride and the electronics are well protected.

It sounds like you got it set up without any major issues, so I thought I would ask how you did so.
Any and all leads towards these answers are duly appreciated!

Maybe there's a resource where I could find this information without having to ask? I searched to forums, wiki, google, and youtube to no avail.

My first question is about the 2 axle washers with protruding pieces at an angle. Do these go on first, and with the 'hooks' facing toward the hub? Or am I completely wrong? I will post a picture of my problem soon to see if that helps people answer my questions.

Second question is about the normal washers; are these just spacers that go on the hub side of the dropouts?

Third Question is about a rear cog set. I was under the false assumption that it came with a 7spd cassette. It must have been a different kit that I was researching. Does any thread on freewheel work with this hub, as I see that is has threads on the drive side? Can I ride it pure electric without a freewheel on it for now?

Fourth Question is about putting the motors wires into the white connector brick. I am pretty clueless when it comes to this, but I imagine once I'm told how to do it, it will become obvious.

May the force of knowledge fall upon this open vessel.

JoaqThroughRivers said:

Hey, I bought almost the same kit as you and am new to the world of E-bikes.
I am moderately competent at messing around with both mechanics and electronics, but I want to make sure that I set up my bike correctly, so that it is safe to ride and the electronics are well protected.

It sounds like you got it set up without any major issues, so I thought I would ask how you did so.
Any and all leads towards these answers are duly appreciated!

Maybe there's a resource where I could find this information without having to ask? I searched to forums, wiki, google, and youtube to no avail.

Click to expand...

Hey, nice to see another fellow DD user on the forum. I'm going to try to answer some questions, but before anything, it wasn't quite as seamless as what I wrote here. It would have taken me 3x the post to put everything into words.

My first question is about the 2 axle washers with protruding pieces at an angle. Do these go on first, and with the 'hooks' facing toward the hub? Or am I completely wrong? I will post a picture of my problem soon to see if that helps people answer my questions.

Click to expand...

Well, I didn't do it by the book because it didn't work. The basic idea as far as I remember was the if I put the wheel in with the normal washers on the inside of the frame and the angled washers on the outside with the "tooth" getting in the spacing in the frame (where you slide the axle thru when mounting the wheel) - this made the cogs rub against the frame. Basically I needed 2mm extra on the inside between the hub+washer and the frame. As such I removed the wheel and did this setup from one side to the other along the axle:
nut/tooth_washer/frame/round_washer/hub_motor/cogs/round_washer/tooth_washer(face2frame)/frame/nut
Basically I flipped the tooth_washer on the inside of the frame to move the frame further and not to rub on the cogs. Simple to do, complicated (for me) to explain.

Second question is about the normal washers; are these just spacers that go on the hub side of the dropouts?

Click to expand...

Yes as far as I understand it

Third Question is about a rear cog set. I was under the false assumption that it came with a 7spd cassette. It must have been a different kit that I was researching. Does any thread on freewheel work with this hub, as I see that is has threads on the drive side? Can I ride it pure electric without a freewheel on it for now?

Click to expand...

You can go on pure electric. I can't because European laws forbid it and I don't want to argue with cops. I ordered the 7spd casette from em3ev and aside from the clearance issue to the frame all was good. TBH I never measured the frame to see if a 7spd actually fits, it eventually did. I think any 6-7spd casette should fit, something like a Shimano Sora or similar.

Fourth Question is about putting the motors wires into the white connector brick. I am pretty clueless when it comes to this, but I imagine once I'm told how to do it, it will become obvious.

May the force of knowledge fall upon this open vessel.

Click to expand...

I'll try to explain. The 3 phase wires from the motor are color coded and can only fit with their corresponding plugs in the controller. Then the HALLs (the 6 pin where only 5 are used) from the motor again can only fit in one place in the controller. By this rationale everything fits. I have two connectors on the controller that go nowhere usually, one I think is a many pin flat connector that I assume goes to the CA (which I haven't bought) and the second flat black connector is only used with the USB adapter to reprogram the unit - thus usually it's open-ended. The rest of the controller plugs all go somewhere, be that motor, throttle, on/off switch or the battery.

There are two 1pin plugs, if you put them together you have regen. If not, you don't

Cheers and put pics with whatever isn't clear

Thank you very much drebikes!

I feel silly, I didn't realize it said DD in the title. Although, it's still pretty much the same kit and principles of hooking it up.

Great answers, you helped me out a lot, and I understood your layout with the nut/tab_washer/frame. That was a very thorough way to explain it, and I appreciate that. I have that part figured out now.

Nice to know that it will work pure electric, I'm curious if the chain will interfere if not detached. I should have my freewheel coming next week sometime though, so that's fine.

Which 5 of the 6 HALL pins did you use? Did you leave out the white one because the DD motor does not have temp control? If you were to use the white cable, would it have connected to a yellow cable (mine will if I am to connect it) or to another similarly white cable.


Battery charging. I bought the 18Ah Triangle battery and a corresponding charger. I couldn't determine what the switch on the charger did. There is a switch with 3 possible settings.
1) Center - Shows a Circle (O)
2) Up - Shows two lines (||)
3) Down - Shows one line (|)

I assume it's semi-self explanatory based on the 0, |, || progression, but I'm not sure what each actually means.

Thanks for you help!

you can ask paul but i think the three settings on the charger determine the final voltage of the charger.

3 position switch to set output voltage to 58.8V, 57.4V and 53.2V. This enables charging to approx 100%, 90% and 50% SOC. Regularly charging to 90% SOC will help to extend cycle life. Charging to 50% is recommended for battery storage

Thank you guys, that makes great sense.

When I plugged the batter into the charger, both lights, red and green, were on the whole time and didn't change.
Also, I keep rechecking my battery - Controller - CA - ignition connections, but I can't seem to find anything that I've done wrong.
The battery won't supply power to the controller it seems the CA will not turn on, and the throttle will not spin the motor.

Any ideas for what common mistake I could have made for power not being supplied?

Is the backlight on the CA turning on, but not booting up? Try unplugging the CA and see of the kit works.

if your battery will not charge when you plug it into the charger and it does not supply current to the controller or the CA then there is a bad connection in the battery. the BMS may be turned off so start with the battery plug.

The CA screen does not light up. I tried it without the CA first and it didn't work. I will try again, but that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Dnmun,

dnmun said:

if your battery will not charge when you plug it into the charger and it does not supply current to the controller or the CA then there is a bad connection in the battery. the BMS may be turned off so start with the battery plug.

Click to expand...

How do I fix the bad connection? And how would I go about turning the BMS on?

Thanks for the input.

you need to buy a voltmeter. they are cheap at harbor freight.

Do you have two red wires in a three prong white plug ? If so that is the ignition that turns the controller on. You can put a switch if that is the case or can short the two red wires togethere for test.

vptech said:

3 position switch to set output voltage to 58.8V, 57.4V and 53.2V. This enables charging to approx 100%, 90% and 50% SOC. Regularly charging to 90% SOC will help to extend cycle life. Charging to 50% is recommended for battery storage

Click to expand...

A quick question, what is the voltage for 0%SOC?

...50km and I haven't yet emptied the battery, it was 50.9V this morning

The usual bms low voltage cutoff is 2.7v/cell I think. That would mean your pack would die below 42v. I'm half guessing here.
It's best not to stress your pack in either direction though to extend its life.

I found a datasheet for the 22F cell in which:
*full voltage is 4.2V
*rated voltage 3.6V
*minimum 2.75V

EDIT: but does this mean that as a best practice to prolong the pack's life we should go as low as... 2.8? Or 2.9? Opinions are welcome.

I have attached two PDFs I found on the web regarding the Samsung 22F cell. One are the specs, the second is extensive testing function of discharge rate , temperature and other stuff.
Hope all is ok with the TOS, the pdfs as far as I gather weren't confidential as they can be found with a simple google search

I think you are worrying too much and not enjoying your e-grin on your new bike that is working great! It is thought to be best practice to only 90% charge and 90%discharge of usable voltage. You will possible double the life of the battery pack. To monitor the pack more you want a watt meter hooked up or a cycle analysis.

Hey, cool thread. Got a few Q's for ya, on the EM3EV Direct Drive 500W kit for $235

DIfference between the EM3EV 305rpm (244rpm loaded @ 36V)) and the 335rpm (268rpm loaded @ 36V)?
What do most people like as far as throttles go, Full, Half or Thumb?
This is my first ever eBike build, will go with the Ebrake HWBS from BMSBattery and 9FET 30A Controller that comes with the DD kit.
HobbyKing - Lipo/Lico Batteries - Turnigy 14.8V 6Ah 25C for $55.75 - TIMES 4S = 59.2V = $223
HobbyKing - HK-010 Wattmeter & Voltage Analyzer for $20
HobbyKing - Turnigy Mega 400W V2 Lithium Polymer Battery Charger (Version 2) (USA Warehouse) for $71

Now I think I have a problem with my 29" Mountain Bike. EM3EV website says they have the 700C Alex rim which equals 29", but I can only assume its for a crosstrail or road bike with a narrower rim. I got a really great deal on this bike, needs fixing and parts but for me thats easy. Oh I thought I might add in probably a stupid crazy idea of just installing 26" wheels and replacing the crankset with shorter pedal arms. I will google that one for sure, might not work.

Anyway I would like to order everything by New Years, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

calab said:

Hey, cool thread. Got a few Q's for ya, on the EM3EV Direct Drive 500W kit for $235

DIfference between the EM3EV 305rpm (244rpm loaded @ 36V)) and the 335rpm (268rpm loaded @ 36V)?
What do most people like as far as throttles go, Full, Half or Thumb?
This is my first ever eBike build, will go with the Ebrake HWBS from BMSBattery and 9FET 30A Controller that comes with the DD kit.
HobbyKing - Lipo/Lico Batteries - Turnigy 14.8V 6Ah 25C for $55.75 - TIMES 4S = 59.2V = $223
HobbyKing - HK-010 Wattmeter & Voltage Analyzer for $20
HobbyKing - Turnigy Mega 400W V2 Lithium Polymer Battery Charger (Version 2) (USA Warehouse) for $71

Now I think I have a problem with my 29" Mountain Bike. EM3EV website says they have the 700C Alex rim which equals 29", but I can only assume its for a crosstrail or road bike with a narrower rim. I got a really great deal on this bike, needs fixing and parts but for me thats easy. Oh I thought I might add in probably a stupid crazy idea of just installing 26" wheels and replacing the crankset with shorter pedal arms. I will google that one for sure, might not work.

Anyway I would like to order everything by New Years, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

Click to expand...

Hey, about the motor's RPM, the difference is the number of copper turns: more turns can be translated into lower maximum speed and also lower current consumption when max torque is required. If you want torque going up hills you should choose lower RPM, if you want speed it will go fast on flats. I think low speed high torque is a good compromise as I need help on hills in stead of flats.
Throttle: half; I haven't tried the others, but this one fits my riding style very well (use epower to accelerate, then continue pedaling after the motor runs out of speed)
Rims: on the datasheet from alexrims there is every single detail one would need to asses the rims. Look on alexrims' site also, then compare with known rims to give you an idea. It seems to me too they are trail rims, not mountainbike/rock-downhill heavy duty. Dunno about the 26ers, you'd lower the weight center of the bike which would already be lowered by the weight of the motor and it would handle differently. Better, worse, I don't know
I use the 9FET 30A controller. What I like most about it is that it's tiny, light and programmable. I picked the 4110 MOS, maybe the 3770 would have been a better idea (lower voltage, but lower losses too).
Last thing about the batteries, they are lighter than what I use, but also more volatile. I think those that use them would advice a nice solid box that can sustain impact without deforming and piercing the LiPos

Hey Thanks drebikes
I can only assume the problem with the 29er is there is more rotating mass, which eats up the power.
Plus the 29er wheel itself is not as strong as the 26" wheel.
The 29er is becoming more popular, so if they dont sell the 29er with the motor, there must be a good reason for it.

29 = 700c

29 is simply a marketing term invention....

just watch your tire widths - and compatibility with frame for given tire widths

I might just go with the geared motor, instead of the DD.

The FAQ says about geared hub - PRO- smaller radius but wider, lighter (50%) then the equivelant powered DD, more torque.
CON- 3000rpm, no regen, $$$$$, many moving parts prone to wear, audible noise, 1 speed.

I am confused now b/c the FAQ here says geared hub motor is 50% lighter then DD, but the EM3ev website says

DD = 5.9kg
Geared hub = 4.3kg
So theres like a 3.5lbs difference there. Shipped!!!! It was written in 2008.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4892

So can I assume from the mention of 1 speed on the geared hub that DD has more then 1 speed.
The 500W DD can go up to 1500W-2000W. But how much can the MAC go?
And with the DD I have to switch to a 6 speed cassette changing my RD and Shifters.
With the geared I can leave my 9 spd the way it is, and add a spacer.

Hey Calab,

I also have a "29in" mountain bike. A diamondback overdrive to be specific.
I just converted it to an electric bike using EM3ev's Upgraded 10T Geared Motor with the 700c (29") Alex Rim.
With it, I also got a CA v3 (unnecessary, but nice, stealthier without), 50V 18.5 Ah Li Battery, Triangular, with a frame triangle bag. Also a 9 FET 30 Ah controller
After using it, I realize I could have done with a ~10-12Ah for my normal rides. I still like the 18.5 because I "can" go farther, but there isn't often I will use it.
I am thinking that it would be better to get a main battery that's about 20-30% more than you need on average, and then if you want to go long distances, invest in another smaller, similar voltage battery. With my battery I could still do this, and could put a 10-20Ah 48-50V On the rear rack for long city-city treks, etc.

Everything works fabulous, I have ridden it to about ~45mph downhill so far I believe, and it seems pretty stable, besides that it could use a little more front weight. When 'bombing' hills on this bike, I am sure to wear a motorcycle helmet. On flat, I wouldn't be as concerned, but would still wear a nice half shell.
On flat ground, without pedaling, and with still winds, you can go about 25-30mph. With pedaling, you can definitely keep it at 30.

Now, when I ride my commuter to work (a 90's Chromoly Giant Prodigy with drop bars, rack, fenders, Lights, etc), it feels SO light in comparison (maybe 25-28 pounds) , even though the electric bike in total must weigh only 55-65 pounds max. (32lb bike, 3lb fenders + rack + accessories, 15lb battery + 10lb motor)

I have also ridden it about 15-20mi in one day, without charging, with lots of pedaling, and a big steep hill for half or a third of the trip.

If you haven't purchased one yet, I highly recommend getting one of these motors.

when you got your EM3EV kit, how much damage and/or wrong parts did you get if any? Im just curious. The price tag scares me a bit and my mind wonders off to el-chepo custom DIY kit, basically any decent motor and battery setup.

I purchased a 10T motor, battery & charger, controller, CA, throttle, torque arm, ebrakes, gears, and some knick knack stuff from EM3EV. Basically, everything to convert a bike to electric. This was a back in November of 2013.

The quality of the product is in the motor, battery, controller, CA, & torque arm. Everything else, is your typical chinese production line stuff. Nothing was damaged on arrival.

I know you live in North America via your signature. I'd prioritize the battery & battery triangle bag as your purchase. This will still be a hefty shipping purchase due to the weight. The motor, too, can be purchased. Though I'm not sure what kind of riding you plan on. There are definitely motor options available for purchase here in North America. Controllers can also be purchased here as well.

There really is a point about placing the battery weight in an optimal location for handling and EM3EV's battery & triangle bag does that superbly. Be aware, that you may need to alter your connections so that matching will work with stuff not bought from the site.