Grin - Outrider mini front hub quick review

Well, it sure took me a while, but I finally got the time to put my new "bike-like-bike" together.

Quick review:
It’s a pretty much exactly what I wanted. The bike is almost half the weight of my fast “super commuter” which weights 100lbs with the battery.
Unlike the super commuter, it feels like a bike, not a motorcycle, it’s perfect to pedal in top gear at full throttle and it’s easy to maneuver.
It’s also stealthier and quieter.

At first I found the Grin 15A mini-controller a bit too weak on acceleration but after a couple of commutes to work, I find it more than adequate. I guess I was still used to the wheely popping acceleration of my 100V 100A bike.

Top speed on the flats is a bit over 40km/h and it doesn't take too long to get there. It will also happily climb moderate hills.

The bike is very efficient compared to my super commuter as I only need 350Wh for my 28km commute with moderate pedalling (no sweat). My current 12s3p pack at 666Wh is a bit oversized and I may downsize it to 12s2p which would bring the bike's total weight to just under 50 pounds.

The specs:
Bike: 2013 Specialized Sirrus, steel fork, 700x32c wheels
Motor: Grin - Outrider mini front hub, standard speed (288 rpm @ 36V)
Controller: Grin – 15A mini controller
Battery: Turnigy 44.4V, 15ah (12s3p)
Charger: Hyperion 1420i with custom DB25 connector (single connection)
Other: Cycle Analyst 2.3

The numbers:
My weight: 160 lbs (5’ 7”)
Bike weight: 54 lbs total (with the battery)
Top speed: 42km/h (flat road, fresh battery)
Top amps: 13.9A (while accelerating)
Top watts: 660w (while accelerating)
Cruising watts: around 500w at top speed, flat, no wind
Consumption: 12.5 Wh/km average on my 28 km commute

Nitpicking:
- It would have been nice to have mounting brackets on the controller, but I managed to secure it with tie wraps
- The special washers with the little bent lips where installed backwards on my motor and I had to cut/rewire the JST hall connector to flip the washer on the phase wire side.
- an extra couple of inches on the controller phase wire would have given me more options to mount it.

The picture:

Nice, maybe the best looking hub motor, small & pretty, what E-Bike I don't see an E-Bike here

Something does not make sense here, 42kmph? On a 24.5kg bike with a tiny hub motor?
Either you have mis calculated on the conversions from imperial to metric or your motor and controller are running red hot.
:?
Maybe you haven't calibrated your speedo properly?

Modbikemax said:

Something does not make sense here, 42kmph? On a 24.5kg bike with a tiny hub motor?
Either you have mis calculated on the conversions from imperial to metric or your motor and controller are running red hot.
:?
Maybe you haven't calibrated your speedo properly?

Click to expand...

500W + pedal power = 40 km/h. Those motors are rated for 500W continuous. What affect would you expect the weight to make? Sounds believable to me.

The speedo (cycle analyst) is properly calibrated.

At the end of my commute, the motor gets warm, but I can still leave my hand on the cover without getting burned. As for the controller it's lukewarm.

Note that I don't ride at full throttle for my entire commute, I have to deal with traffic, twisty bike paths and potholes so my speed varies. Still I have a few long stretches of nice road where I can ride at full throttle for a while. In those, the bike will accelerate to around 42km/h using a max power around 650W (controller limited). When I reach top speed, the power needed slowly decreases to around 500W with some moderate pedal input from me.

gogo said:

Sounds believable to me.

Click to expand...

+1

Ebikes.ca simulator predicts 39-41 kph (mountain/road bike) for his configuration. Heck my fast-wound EBK geared motor (same size as the Outrider) will do 39 kph on a freshly charged 10S pack (42V) and I'm 40 lbs heavier.

-R

Sorry but unless the laws of physics are different in Canada i still don't see how you can be getting those speeds with that setup. As shown on other threads the wind drag over 30k goes up dramatically so you either have a nice tailwind or you are dreamin. To be pedalling up to those speeds you must be Lance Armstrong with more than his usual chemical boost.

I've told you a million times don't exaggerate!

good job
i like the light clean design- perfect for city commutes

The 700 wheel and perhaps the camera angle, make the motor look smaller than it really is.
The Outrider is externaly identical to the MXUS, although the internals are different. Both bare motors tip the scales at 2.3 Kg. making them one of the largest mini-motors.
There are many 1000's of MXUS geared mini's in service and it is well established that they will do 22 to 23 mph at 12S in a 26"wheel.
No controversy here.

I'm also very impressed with the standard winding ( ~20mph @ 36v ) outrider in a 26 inch wheel.
I got away with spoking it up with 14 gauge spokes and it's held up just fine, no fancy spokes needed at this power level for a front motor.

On 36v x 19A, i feel that the motor is adequate as a power assist for an ebike that rides like a regular bike, not a pseudo-motorcycle.

Efficiency is quite good!

Since it's a low-ish pole count motor, she grumbles a bit from a stall, but that's not a big deal.

It will do 25mph on the 120% infineon setting, which makes me happy.

That's my 2 cents.

motomech said:

The 700 wheel and perhaps the camera angle, make the motor look smaller than it really is.
The Outrider is externaly identical to the MXUS, although the internals are different. Both bare motors tip the scales at 2.3 Kg. making them one of the largest mini-motors.
There are many 1000's of MXUS geared mini's in service and it is well established that they will do 22 to 23 mph at 12S in a 26"wheel.
No controversy here.

Click to expand...

22mph is 35 kph not 42.

And a 26 inch wheel is not a 700 wheel and I weight 260 lb.s.
Lots of folks here can get 42 Kph on a mini @ 12S,
Are you saying they are all liars?
You are starting to come off as a Troll.

Modbikemax said:

Sorry but unless the laws of physics are different in Canada i still don't see how you can be getting those speeds with that setup. As shown on other threads the wind drag over 30k goes up dramatically so you either have a nice tailwind or you are dreamin. To be pedalling up to those speeds you must be Lance Armstrong with more than his usual chemical boost.

I've told you a million times don't exaggerate!

Click to expand...

Well, I already have a bike that does 75+km/h so I don't really feel the need to exaggerate about a bike that does 42km/h.

Please keep in mind that 42km/h is on the flat, no wind on a fresh battery. I'm also a small guy at 5' 7" - 160 pounds

Here are the numbers as reported by my cycle analyst.

Wheel diameter (Circumference measured my rolling the wheel on the floor): 2172mm

Here's my last commute:

Starting Voltage: 49.6V
Ending Voltage: 45.6V
Distance: 28.13km
Consumption: 7.586 Ah - 351.94 Wh - 12.5 Wh/km
Max Current: 13.97A
Min Voltage: 44.4V
Max Speed: 42km/h
Avg Speed: 30.2km/h
Time: 55m 46s

motomech said:

And a 26 inch wheel is not a 700 wheel and I weight 260 lb.s.
Lots of folks here can get 42 Kph on a mini @ 12S,
Are you saying they are all liars?
You are starting to come off as a Troll.

Click to expand...

I am not saying anyone is a liar just wishful.
26" to 700 is worth about 3 kph depending on tyre size.
I am not saying you can't go 42kph just not as described. I can do it on a non ebike but it is hard work and not for long.
With a tail wind it's a whole lot easier.
This was put up as a review and people may make purchase decisions based on this review I just want readers to be aware that the figures quoted are questionable. So far your name calling has not swayed my opinion.

Run the numbers
http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html

at 160 lbs.. 48v 20ah allcell ( lipo equivalent .. roughly ) 700C wheel.. no load if 50+ kph and the numbers make sense..

Modbikemax said:

I am not saying anyone is a liar just wishful.
26" to 700 is worth about 3 kph depending on tyre size.
I am not saying you can't go 42kph just not as described. I can do it on a non ebike but it is hard work and not for long.
With a tail wind it's a whole lot easier.
This was put up as a review and people may make purchase decisions based on this review I just want readers to be aware that the figures quoted are questionable. So far your name calling has not swayed my opinion.

Click to expand...

Fair enough, for the benefit of other readers who are looking into that motor for their ebike project, I did some additional tests.

To eliminate the potential inaccuracy of the speedo, I used a gps. As you can see in the picture below, the max speed measured by the speedo is 42.2kmh and the gps tells me 43 kmh (vitesse max is in French) so I conclude that my calibration is pretty good.

Also, I used veloroutes.org to get the elevation data on the stretch of road I used to test. It's 0.4 miles long with a 2ft elevation difference which seems pretty flat to me.

Lastly, I took a screenshot of the weather conditions here today. There is very light wind of 4kmh in the southern direction. My run is east-west / west-east, so no tail or head wind.

I also ran the test in both directions. I achieved the top speed in the first run, going west-east. In the other direction, the highest reading I saw on my speedo was 41kmh.

To eliminate the Lance Armstrong factor, I did not pedal at all during the run. I also kept a normal riding position, not crouching on the bike.

Pff... i've hit a max speed of 42kmh ( ~26mph ) in 120% mode with a 12fet infineon on a 26" wheel while pedaling with this motor at a full charge on flat ground.

Nothing surprising about his results.

I've ran this motor on 12s x 20A once when i first got it.. very powerful on a 26" wheel, about 60% of what a MAC motor feels like when saturated. She gets hot on 1000w peak tho!!

Thanks for doing the test, it's a bit more convincing now with the additional data.
Where can I buy one of these Grin motors?

No prob, it allowed me to confirm that my speedo is accurate.

I bought it from ebikes.ca (grin)

The motor itself is named outrider.

neptronix said:

I've ran this motor on 12s x 20A once when i first got it.. very powerful on a 26" wheel, about 60% of what a MAC motor feels like when saturated. She gets hot on 1000w peak tho!!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I was considering upgrading to a 20A controller for a bit more power on acceleration, but i would probably end up burning up the motor, especially with my 700c wheels.

I ran a 22 Amp Lyen Mini-monster on my MXUS for a couple of years w\ no ill effects to the motor, but with a 12S lipo pack it was borderline hairy from a control aspect.. On damp pavement, it sometimes would spin the frt. tire if I didn't feather the throttle. Or the time I nailed the throttle at a busy traffic crossing without having the whl. pointed straight, had to put a foot down to prevent a face plant.
If I were you, I would do the "dirt floor" shunt mod., using the CA to verify the results. Real lite coat of solder on 1\3 of the shunt. Shoot for peak Amps in the 17-18A range.
D8veh has posted some nice pics of how to do. Very easy.

El_Steak said:

neptronix said:

I've ran this motor on 12s x 20A once when i first got it.. very powerful on a 26" wheel, about 60% of what a MAC motor feels like when saturated. She gets hot on 1000w peak tho!!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I was considering upgrading to a 20A controller for a bit more power on acceleration, but i would probably end up burning up the motor, especially with my 700c wheels.

Click to expand...

18A is a good middle ground. Throw some solder on that 15A controller's shunt...

A couple extra amps on this motor goes a long way.

As for the others, i can't personally recommend the 25mph version unless you have a rather small wheel, 24, 20, 16 inches for example..

El_Steak,

What brand/gauge of spokes did you end up using with the Outrider? How well do the heads fit in the motor flange holes?

-R

Russell said:

What brand/gauge of spokes did you end up using with the Outrider? How well do the heads fit in the motor flange holes?

Click to expand...

I used the custom cut silver Sapin single butted 13-14 Gauge from Grin.

http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/spokes/spcust14.html

I'm no expert, but the heads seem to be fitting perfectly well in the flange holes. The wheel was super easy to build compared to my previous failed attempt with a 9c in a 24 inch wheel. It's holding up fine after about 300km and hasn't required any spoke adjustments since.

What length did you use?

I have an Outrider on order from China, a black sensorless model, that I plan to also lace in a Mavic A119.

-R