The steepest hills

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Lowell   1 MW

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Post by Lowell » May 14 2007 11:19am

eP wrote:
Lowell wrote: Randy: No matter how skinny the rider, and how efficient the motor, your 1600W has no chance against an X5 hub motor with 6600W. That's great for you that it climbs mountains at 12mph, but don't expect flatlanders to think that's useful.
You are wrong Lowell.
It is not useful for you, but for most of bikers it is useful. The less power you need the more useful it is as you dont need spend a lot of money for powerful battery pack.
Where will the average person buy this kit that doesn't exist? If there was such a demand for dual chain gear reduced ebikes, someone would be building kits to take peoples money.

So there is either not enough demand, or it's too complex and expensive to build and not profitable. The fact that the copyright holder ( :lol: ) has never put any ebike products into mass production pretty much sums up the commercial viability of the idea.

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TylerDurden   100 GW

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Post by TylerDurden » May 14 2007 11:49am

It is probably fair to say the ebike industry is young, but growing fast (china = 10M/yr.!).

It is impossible to predict where/when a population will embrace innovations, and where those innovations will originate and thrive.

But, like somebody said here earlier: there is still room for improvement.

Poland, Maui, Canada, Beijing, California... good ideas come from everywhere.


We will make some fine bikes, and have a shitload of fun too!
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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fechter   100 GW

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Post by fechter » May 14 2007 9:56pm

Yes, and blow things up in the process. :D
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 15 2007 4:41pm

Yes many Ideas have came and gone.Some ebik manufactures have gone to the extream thinking running a X-lyte would be efficient using it as a mid mount drive using chains first to reduce the ratio to direct drive the crank then to gear the oppisite way to make the wheel go faster with a $1200. Rohloff geard hub.
When for 1/2 the total price a single speed E-tech brushless motor would have done the job much better using only 1 speed with less parts, Costs, and weighing the same as just the hub motor.
For simplicity a home builder would only need to make a motor mount and battery mounts.To be able to use a motor system that will be reliable in the uses that most hub motor controllers are at the verge of blowing or they are blowing.
As I mentioned Years ago.Most if not all manufactured ebike kits or complete ebikes are not designed or rated for much over 500 watts of contionus power and either are any off the shelf BLDC controllers. Except for the examples I have given you that indeed cost less with up to 20 times more PROGRAMABLE power than the leading ebike kits available.At LESS TOTAL WEIGHT!
The bottom line is when Li-po batteries become popular who wants a inefficient motor/controller that has a hard time climbing hills at a decent speed or pops controllers overvolting them to go fast. Or burns up there new expensive lithium pack because people don't relize that there system is using half there battery energy in pure heat ?
Yes the lead acid days will be around for these heavy inefficient hub motors that need pedaling to start off and to climb hills But there days are limited like the range of there trips are. Reliability has always been a ebike problem unless you build it yourself with quality components.Or just except the facts that you need to pedal most of the time. Blow a few controllers if you don't and limit your range to 10 miles on a heavy ebike. The guys going 45 mph on X-lytes may tell you different but they will always be crossing there fingers when they ride.
Quality Motor/Controllers are NOT made by ANY ebike companies.They only provide the minimal cost systems to make a HUGE profit.Which usually means go SLOW or pedal hard or both if you want the fewest problems.
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knoxie   10 MW

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Post by knoxie » May 15 2007 5:15pm

Hi

Again Randy I have to agree with much of that, you pays your money you get what you pay for, the Chinese stuff is not a patch on the Sevcon and the Chinese stuff is only deigned for low power really, some of us are taking them to their limits to see what can be done with them and I dont doubt that a lot of people will be crossing their fingers as the controllers and the batteries and everything are so much more vulnerable on kit that isnt really designed well enough to cope.

The lipos are cheap but need improvement if you want to get good cycle life and better reliability and as you also suggested we are in contact with the battery and controller suppliers to get a lot of the shortcomings fixed in the motors and controllers and the batteries, we cant do this until we play with the stuff and make it smoke to see what needs fixing, its hard to change the Chinese way of doing things and quality control is always an issue.

I like trying all different kinds of systems and taking them to the limit then backing them down a little and using them, has been working well for me so far and I have fixed a lot of the short comings on the controller and have it running well and reliable, I think I can sort out a lot of the BMS problems between Mark and the lipo supplier.

If we lean on the Chinese enough they will pick up the quality and realise they cant cut corners as it wont wash with folks in the west esp when they stand next to the sort of quality that is made in the west, thats not to say all the Chinese stuff is substandard far from it and infact its the e-bike industry that is probably at the lower end quality wise.

We will all keep frying this stuff until we find what works 8)

Later

Knoxie

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 15 2007 5:52pm

knoxie wrote:Hi

Again Randy I have to agree with much of that, you pays your money you get what you pay for, the Chinese stuff is not a patch on the Sevcon and the Chinese stuff is only deigned for low power really, some of us are taking them to their limits to see what can be done with them and I dont doubt that a lot of people will be crossing their fingers as the controllers and the batteries and everything are so much more vulnerable on kit that isnt really designed well enough to cope.

The lipos are cheap but need improvement if you want to get good cycle life and better reliability and as you also suggested we are in contact with the battery and controller suppliers to get a lot of the shortcomings fixed in the motors and controllers and the batteries, we cant do this until we play with the stuff and make it smoke to see what needs fixing, its hard to change the Chinese way of doing things and quality control is always an issue.

I like trying all different kinds of systems and taking them to the limit then backing them down a little and using them, has been working well for me so far and I have fixed a lot of the short comings on the controller and have it running well and reliable, I think I can sort out a lot of the BMS problems between Mark and the lipo supplier.

If we lean on the Chinese enough they will pick up the quality and realise they cant cut corners as it wont wash with folks in the west esp when they stand next to the sort of quality that is made in the west, thats not to say all the Chinese stuff is substandard far from it and infact its the e-bike industry that is probably at the lower end quality wise.

We will all keep frying this stuff until we find what works 8)

Later

Knoxie
Before Currie came out with the USPD I already had reliable quality components made cost effectivly.You will not find ANY in production on Ebikes. Yet and mabe never! using what is already on some ebikes would be much harder because they are NOT designd to take much more without major modifications.
What works great! is great motor/controllers made by Great designers designing for the job required. All else is secondary.
Efficiency and longevity Rules!
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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 15 2007 10:05pm

A single speed chain drive works best and is less weight for the power and efficiency compared to Any hub motor to date.Sprocket ratio changes for any conditions are eaisier than getting a new motor.
A efficient high torque 1000 watt motor helps.So does knowing how to make a motor bracket. :o
Attachments
1KwBLDC.jpg
Better Yet broach the rotor and place it over a freehub for 3 speeds or 1 speed.
1KwBLDC.jpg (129.79 KiB) Viewed 1386 times
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TylerDurden   100 GW

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Post by TylerDurden » May 15 2007 10:30pm

Wow... that's clean.

No bearing on the fan-end?

:?:
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 15 2007 10:43pm

TylerDurden wrote:Wow... that's clean.

No bearing on the fan-end?

:?:
Nope, but two beefy 40 mm X 17 mm bearings on the other side preloaded with the sprocket or a nut or both.I personaly would use that fan for the rotor :lol:
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EbikeMaui   1 kW

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Post by EbikeMaui » May 20 2007 12:37am

Lowell wrote:
EbikeMaui wrote:
Lowell wrote:Randy is just bitter that hardly anyone really appreciates or cares about his ebike drivetrain, while hub motors sell by the container load. I for one would have more respect for Randy if he presented his ideas in well written posts, without trying to put down others.

Randy: No matter how skinny the rider, and how efficient the motor, your 1600W has no chance against an X5 hub motor with 6600W. That's great for you that it climbs mountains at 12mph, but don't expect flatlanders to think that's useful.
And what 6600 watt controller comes with the X5 ? :lol:
An off the shelf Crystalyte, modified with IRFB4110 MOSFETs. Total cost less than $200 plus a soldering iron if you don't already own one.
sO WHAT off the shelf controller comes with the X-5 and what are the specs? Most people don't want to void there warenty Or know how to solder circuit boards.
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eP   10 kW

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Post by eP » May 20 2007 6:09am

EbikeMaui wrote:
Lowell wrote:
EbikeMaui wrote:
Lowell wrote:Randy is just bitter that hardly anyone really appreciates or cares about his ebike drivetrain, while hub motors sell by the container load. I for one would have more respect for Randy if he presented his ideas in well written posts, without trying to put down others.

Randy: No matter how skinny the rider, and how efficient the motor, your 1600W has no chance against an X5 hub motor with 6600W. That's great for you that it climbs mountains at 12mph, but don't expect flatlanders to think that's useful.
And what 6600 watt controller comes with the X5 ? :lol:
An off the shelf Crystalyte, modified with IRFB4110 MOSFETs. Total cost less than $200 plus a soldering iron if you don't already own one.
sO WHAT off the shelf controller comes with the X-5 and what are the specs? Most people don't want to void there warenty Or know how to solder circuit boards.
Controller is still no problem, much bigger problem is the 7 kW battery pack.
The bigger hub advantage is better efficiency at low load than geared motors efficiency.
Soldering is also no issue, bigger issue is mechanical mounting 2 chains drivetrain, low stator loss and low drivetrain loss.

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Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh   10 MW

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Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » May 20 2007 9:12am

EbikeMaui wrote:Before Currie came out with the USPD I already had reliable quality components made cost effectivly.You will not find ANY in production on Ebikes. Yet and mabe never! using what is already on some ebikes would be much harder because they are NOT designd to take much more without major modifications.
What works great! is great motor/controllers made by Great designers designing for the job required. All else is secondary.
IF you were to ever go into actual production, you would understand why such lofty ideals of quality & reliability are quickly crushed by marketplace reality. Unless you are willing to subsidize the cost of such high quality by selling every unit that heads out the door at a loss, you have to cater to the lowest common denominator, i.e. the mass market in order to make money. You just don't know until you learn this lesson first hand.
Kick down the barricades Listen what the kids say.
From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

Mathurin   100 kW

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Post by Mathurin » May 20 2007 2:51pm

Took some pics yesterday.

Some generic street going to my bros' place. I had stopped to take a pic of the lady walking her bike up the street, but I was too slow. She's the one in the middle of the street, but you can't see her very well:
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Missed a left turn downtown, turned right, came back around and like an idiot got to the right of right turning traffic... Had to wait a bit so had some water & took a pic.
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Hopefully I'll get some pics of Gilmore hill at some point.
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

Lowell   1 MW

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Post by Lowell » May 20 2007 3:02pm

Any estimate on the percent grade for the first pic?

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eP   10 kW

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Post by eP » May 20 2007 4:59pm

Lowell wrote:Any estimate on the percent grade for the first pic?
20% slope or more ?

Mathurin   100 kW

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Post by Mathurin » May 20 2007 5:03pm

~23%, but the airport road with 6% grade is much meaner, because it lasts several km's.
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

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Post by Mathurin » Jun 02 2007 1:47pm

Allright, so it seems I went up Gilmore yesterday, and given I happenned to have the proper equipment, I took some measurements while I was at it.


Bottom of hill, ~20.5%
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Middle-ish, ~20.5%
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Top, ~16.5%
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The way I figured the above percentages is by making the images fit in the screen so as to measure the water's elevation (1), and divide that by the length it spans the bottom (2) and so you multiply that by 100 and it gives a percentage:

Image



The picture was taken by putting the bottle near the curb, and the camera about 50cm's from it on the pavement. There surely is some imprecision from assuming the bottle and camera are on the same plane, but I figured by taking several measurements this would even out. What I don't get is the way this hill is reported to be about 14% per several sources. Am I doing this wrong?
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

Lowell   1 MW

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Post by Lowell » Jun 02 2007 2:12pm

What you're doing should be correct, but the small distances involved make it easy to introduce error.

Try using a water level by stringing a piece of clear tubing between two posts so that the ends are vertical. Fill with water to establish level grade and measure away. A 4ft construction level would probably give pretty accurate results actually....

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DanEL   1 mW

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Post by DanEL » Jun 04 2007 11:08pm

Hi Wren, I'm excited to find a fellow 'Burgher here!

Here's a few more "Dirty Dozen" pics for your enjoyment

First are a few more of Canton Street:

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Here are misc. pics taken at various other streets in the race:

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Here are my favorites:

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Mathurin   100 kW

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Post by Mathurin » Jun 09 2007 3:06pm

http://www.northeastcycling.com/NE_Climbs_main.html

From the page:

"Welcome to the Northeast Hillclimbs site. Here you will find detailed information about road cycling hillclimbs located throughout the New England states and north-eastern New York. Most of these climbs offer paved surfaces, and gravel sections on a few of the climbs usually do not pose problems for road bikes. Profiles of the climbs are given, as well as detailed descriptions of surface quality, climbing/descending difficulty, and other bits of info, such as views, race records, etc."

An interesting read
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

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Post by xyster » Jun 09 2007 3:32pm

Mathurin wrote:http://www.northeastcycling.com/NE_Climbs_main.html

An interesting read
Good site. Interesting calculators. With a power density of ~18 Watts/Kg (bike + rider), I'm off the charts! :D

http://www.northeastcycling.com/neclimbs_hillcalc.htm
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