Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

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Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 24, 2014 12:45 pm

Thanks to Oatnet, I picked up this "little" gem yesterday, out in Sun City (about 14 miles or so away from me, total round trip 27.98 miles).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Used-Cr ... 7675.l2557
Kona with x5304 kit.JPG

It's a nearly-complete older Crystalyte kit, and was in "untested" condition when I picked it up (meaning, not working). I figured even if each piece needed repair, it'd still be worth having as a backup unit, or parts for other stuff. At the time I didn't really pay any attention to what any models/etc any of it was, just that it pretty much had almost everything necessary to convert a typical bike to e-bike (no ebrake handles, and would need a new throttle). Details about what I found on the kit a little later in the post, with pics here and there to show things better.
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The adventure: Just past midday, after a nearly-uneventful ride (which is more detailed in the CrazyBike2 thread--the ride back was less uneventful), I got there and spoke with Steve, the seller (ebay auction), who was pretty interested in my CrazyBike2, and he sort-of regretted selling the kit after we'd talked a little (though realistically, given his present lack of experience with ebike stuff, he'd be better off buying a new setup than fixing an old one, especially if it needed extensive repairs, whcih at that time was unknown; I didn't even know if *I* could fix it up). I made sure he got the ES forum address off my cargo pods, and he is most likely gonna come poke around.


He advised me that he'd accidentally broken the throttle getting it of the bike he'd gotten the kit from, but that's not a problem as I have a number of throttles, and there's enough of the original left that I could repair it (it's just the twist grip or thumb ring/tab that's missing, and some broken plastics).

We discussed the battery a little; he said it wouldn't even try to charge, and based on it's weight I figured it would be either NiCd, NiMH, or least likely, SLA. It is in a plastic case made to hose-clamp into a typical frame triangle, and it has a key to turn it on and off, and a charge port with a screw cap over it. The charge port is XLR 3-pin. Depending on how badly it's been used and abused, I said it might be recoverable, but even if it wasn't, I have other batteries I can stick inside that case easily enough.
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The motor I didn't relaly look at at teh time, other than to note the 26" rim's braking surface has been used a fair bit, and that the thin torque arm has seen better days (it comes close to being able to spin around the axle, but not quite).
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The motor itself looked older, though I didn't (still don't) know very much about all the older Crystalyte brand motors, and so I didn't recognize it for what it is then (despite the label). I didn't even notice it was 48v kit, and assumed it was 36V or less. Not only is a 48V, but it's an X5304. :shock:

He watched me ride off and bakc a couple times, we talked some more, and then I headed on home, where the second thing I did was to start taking the battery pack apart.... (the first, of course, was to greet Tiny and Yogi and be slobbered and shed on :lol: ).
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So, the battery: It's either NiCd or NiMH; coudln't find any markings on the cells to tell. 40s, so 48V "nominally charged" (1.2v/cell), and 56V "fully charged" (1.4v/cell). The charger, when hooked up and plugged into the wall, simply lights up it's green power light, and flashes the charge light green/red, fairly rapidly. Unfortunately the label on teh charger that probably would've said what that meant is missing.
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Voltmeter on charge port and output andersons sees essentially nothing: 0.11 to 0.17V, depenidng on how hard I press the meter leads to the contacts (pretty crappy meter leads that have seen much better days).
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Opened up the case and found the same at the cells themselves. They appear to be something between D size and F size, so I guess if there's an E size, this is probably it. Simple spotwelding, but there's a strip of electrical tape across each row, on both sides of the pack. (nothing in the case could ever short there, so it msut've been for factory safety?).
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Since the sticky on the tape was almost gone (just gooey) I pulled it all off (nearly fell off). Nothing wrong with the spotwelds I can see, though several cells show signs of swelling, prbalby overheated in teh past. No leaking, though, good sign.
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Fuse (40A) checks good as does the thermal cutout switch (55C, 131F), and the diode its probably using as a thermal sensor. Continuity ok everywhere, no shorts.
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Next step: force-charge it with the big Sorenson. :) I set the sorenson to 60V and 1A, and hooked it right across the main pack output tabs. It took a moment for voltage to stop being 0.1V, at 1.0A, but once it did, it climbed rapidly and plateau'd for a minute or two at a little mroe than 12V.
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At that point, some cells showed 0V, some a few tenths, and some 1.4V. I let it keep charging like this for several more minutes, until it was around 30V (cuz the controller has a 29V LVC, so the charger ought to be able to try to charge ok above 30V, right?).


Then I disconnected the Sorenson, and hooked p the charger, which now started to charge it normally, at about 2A, in pulses--something in the pack was switching on and off, though, like a relay-- could hear the clicking!
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It was not the thermal relay, and I coudlnt' find anything hidden in the pack between cells, etc. So a cell (or several) was actually doing this. Maybe dendrites...3 cells still read 0V even during the charging process.

Next step was to set the Sorenson to 1.4V, 1A, and while the charger was still doing it's thing, I began clipping it across each cell in the string, to see which ones began gobbling current, and which ones kept voltage up, and which shorted it out. Anything that really dropped the voltage down (0.5V or less) and sucked up max current, I turned the current knob up until the cell stopped shorting the voltage out--most fo them that was around 9-10A--then I turned it back down to 1A, and went on to the next cell.

After I did that, all of the cells appeared to be charging at normal voltages again. So it was probably dendrites, and they'll probably come back, but they work for now. :)


Next up was to just let it charge with it's own charger. But I wanted to know how many Ah it was gonna take, etc., so I cliped the ground wire inside teh pack for the charging port, and put the old well-worn WattsUp from AussieJester in series with that wire (and just clipped it's power wire to the + pack tab). Unfortunately I lost the data while trying to read the thing, cuz the wire tension had "rolled" the Wu over on it's face, and when I rolled it back to check it I pulled the power wire loose, which cleared it's data out. :(
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I got pics of the after-that-point charging, it's 2A primary current, then it's pulses of 0A to 1.7A or so,
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which it would start once it reached about 120F or so according to a thermometer I stuck between cells
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near the diode (which I'd put down between cells; I don't know where that was orignally; I didn't see it when i opened it up).
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Once it dropped back down to 100-105F or so, it'd restart the 2A charging cycle. I'd guess it was about 3 hours to finish that whole process, including the time before I los the data, so probably it was something around 4-5Ah put into the pack, given the varying currents. At this point I pulled the WU out of the circuit and reconnected the charging ground, then closed up the box. The pack was still pretty warm at this point (uncomfortable to hold for long).
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The charger also has a "discharge" button on it, which if you press that for a few seconds, iwhen the unit is in normal charge mode (solid red light, green power light), it changes the power light to green, turns fan on high, and begins a 0.2A discharge of the pack.
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I didn't try doing that for very long, just long enough to see if it would change currents, and it never did--it's probably a fixed resistor being switched in instead of the charging circuit. I dind't explore the guts of the charge rmuch yet, just looked at them:
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I did reverse the fan in the charger, cuz the AC end of things was hotter than hell, as the fan was set to blow in from the output end of the box, and the tall heatsink there blocks airflow from the rest of the charger. With it set to pull air thru the charger, since it has vents all over it, it works MUCH
better to cool the whole thing evenly.



Now I used the partly revived pack to test the rest of the kit: I hooked up the motor, whcih was just sitting in the Coil's fork, to the contorler's halls and phase wires, just plugge d together in order it already had locked together. Hooke dup a different throttle off a different Crystalyte controller (I think one someone donated to me as a fixer-upper; cant' remember who now or what was wrong with it). Also hooked up the PAS; didn't do ebrakes.

Plugged into battery pack, and twisted throttle: nothing. did some othe robvious things, to no avail. Started measuring voltages at connectors, and verifying connections/mating surfaces, and found that the throttle I'd used (four wire with power meter) wasn't the same wiring as the four-wire with PM that'd come with the kit. Swapped black and white wires on mine to match the original, and VOILA! motor now spun right up, to about 422RPM max. That's about 33 MPH unloaded, with the 26" wheel. If I relaced it into a 20" wheel, it'd only be about 25 MPH unloaded, but should be easier on it at my 20MPH cruising speeds, with a higher current controller (40A instead of 20A), and have better accleration. Of course, since the pack I actualy use has a lot less sag, and is slightly higher voltage, the actual top speed capability would be a little higher, though for my purposes irrelevant as 20MPH is hte max allowed speed anyway.






Teh controller looks like the older Crystalyte stuff that BikeFanatic had sent me (much of which probably isn't around anymore after the fire, since I had a lot of "projects" in boxes in the main room that burned, and I'm sure some of those were there). But this one is a thin one made to clamp around a frame tube, and it's heatsink would then press against teh bike frame and probably be able to use it for additional heatsinking, a little bit.
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It's a switchable instant-start or pedal-first controller; switch on teh side of it engages the PAS, and that either disables the throttle or makes it not respond to throttle till the PAS is in use (cranks spinning). I havne't gotten the PAS part working; either something is wrong with the sensor or it's cabling, or the connection between PAS and controller is bad, or I didn't set it up correctly (and/or it's also incompatible with the PAS from the much newer Fusin "1000W" rear geared hub kit I reviewed, which happed to still be on the Diamondback Coil frame I dragged over to the "test area" to put upside down to test the motor in it's fork.)

Label says it's model CPTL-JNY-F4820, and is 29V LVC. While I had it open to verify voltages before I found the throttel wiring reversed, I took pics, fo course. The caps are 100V already; couldnt' see the FETs wihtout opening it up farther than I needed to right hten.
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After I found the throttle miswire I put the controller back togehter to test everything. Never did find out why PAS isn't working, so for now the PAS switch is just anothe "off" switch.

Other than the PAS, it works fine, at least off-ground. I used a once-wet-now-dry-and-stuck-together roll of paper towels I had handy as a "brake" on the rim, to load it down to around 10A, which sliced thru the paper towels pretty quick. :lol: didn't have an ebrake handle handy, but shorting the pins in the brake connector does stop power to the wheel. No regen AFAICT.


I let the pack fully charge up again, then cool overnight, and it dropped down to about 52V. Now it's running a lightbulb discharger test, at about 1A (best I could do with what I had right there, though I have better options in one of the sheds someplace).
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Probably won't have time to Didn't finish before I left for work (and to post this), but it's a start that I can pause, note data down, and finish when I get home. So far it got ~1.6Ah before reaching 32V; was down to 0.7A discharge rate with the pair of 100W incandescent bulbs in parallel.


Now, the motor itself. X5304, 26" typical "aero" cheap rim. Some loose spokes, isn't trued up yet. Has 8 cover bolts each side instead of the 9 that seems common on many motors I've opened up so far (including the more recent HSR3548, also by Crystalyte, which has other similarities to this motor).
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I'd expected rust or something, but this one is clean, *and* it's also painted with anti-rust stuf on the stator and the magnets. Some of the magnets are chipped and paint isn't on those areas; it's possible I did that in opening it, but I didn't find any pieces stuck anywhere so most likely is factory issues (or possibly a prior opening up by someone else).
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Wires are ok.
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There's an interesting little void in the stator support casting, which isn't likely to give me any issues, but it's something against Crystalyte: between that void and hte ones in the covers of my HSR3548, I wonder how many others out htere have worse ones that cant' even be seen (both of these are quite obvious). And how many of those voids are waiting for the wrong moment to propagate cracks thru the rest of the structure? Most likely very very few people would ever have a problem from them, but it still bothers me.
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The only "serious" problem with the motor is that the axle is bent on both ends--it looks like maybe a previous owner jumped this thing (a lot?) and eventually bent the axles over time? The really thick part that goes thru the motor, with the really wide shoulders to go against the inside of the dropouts--that appears to be fine. Just the thinner threaded part is definitely bent. No cracks are visible even with a magnifying glass and good light, but it's just as well that I wouldn't be jumping htis thing. :)
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However, whatever I use it on probably would be a heavy hauler, so we'll have to see about ensuring I don't end up with a broken axle and getting stuck somewhere because of it, given the potholes and other street problems I can't always avoid (or even see till too late sometimes--see today's CrazyBike2 post for an example).

It's a front motor, but for me that doesn't mean anything, because I could just as easily do what I did with a 9C front and bolt the threaded part of a regular bike hub to it's right side cover, and turn it into a rear wheel for narrow dropouts. ;)

The halls are typical placement and type, though one has it's numbers exposed while the other two are deeper in the glue used to secure them. Wiring all looks good inside and out. It uses anderson pp45s on the phase wires, which I can't tell for sure what gauge wire it is; have to peel back a little insulation at some point to check.
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So far, everything either worked or has been fixable or usable as-is. Still to see how it tests on a bike. Gotta put one together with it first. (maybe stick it on the left rear of Delta Tripper, which has the Fusin 1000W on the right rear. Left rear is still narrow dropouts so would probably work there). More later once I have it.


So, again, Thanks! to Oatnet!
Last edited by amberwolf on Oct 26, 2014 5:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: added link to original ebay listing & pic

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by oatnet » Oct 24, 2014 3:13 pm

Hey AW, looks good!

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by ohzee » Oct 24, 2014 7:05 pm

Wow that looks like a nice find.

Hopefully the guy you got it from makes it here and spends some time reading so he can get a new kit.

Can't wait to hear how it works for you. looks like a nice potential on the battery as well.

Nice work Oat.

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 25, 2014 1:24 pm

The battery got about 1.8Ah before it was down below 20V (very rapid once it hit 29V; took less than another 5 minutes before it hit essentially zero under load). Sometimes nickel chemistries recover after a few charge/discharge cycles, so we'll try that before calling the pack dead. Might still be able to use it for something if it gets back 6-8Ah or so. otherwise I'd be better off putting something else in that case, for the weight of it.

I was too tired to stay up with it while it recharged again, so that'll have to wait for tomorrow when I'm home most of the day to let it recharge with the original charger at it's ~2A rate.

(I'd rather be there where I can monitor it and have it outside, in case one of those questionable cells goes BLOOEY from internal heat...wouldn't be the first time a nickel cell grenaded on me).



I started pondering in the back fo my mind about uses for the motor, mounting it, driving it, etc., to get as much power as I could out of it, and started thinking about axles. I don't particularly trust the existing axle for anything past "normal" power out of it, given that it's already bent, and poking around (plus info from Oatnet) finds mroe than one broken axle from twisting forces at high currents.

So I am thinking about replacing it with a hollow tube axle like Farfle did with a big hubmotor (cna't remember which one). I have a number of diameters of steel pipe, and a lathe, and a welder, and grinders, so I am sure I can come up with *something* that I can secure to the stator that will either fit with the existing bearings or that I could get bigger ones for (and bore out the side covers if I have to), that I can then clamp into new dropouts on the rear of CrazyBike2. :)

I could do solid axles, too, but I don't have a good way to thread them afterward, and I'd venture they would be weaker than a single larger diameter tube would be. I can drill a bolt hole thru the tube at each end to bolt it to the dropout with, that would also be clamping the dropout to the tube.

Pinning the axle to the stator is a little harder, but not much: I can easily enough weld a couple of keys to the axle, and cut/grind keyways in the stator, or keyways in both and then make keys to tap into them.


I could probably just use the original single keyway and key from the original axle, too, but it might be safer to use at least two. :)

I may well also want to drill a keyway or two into the point where the steel inner ring is pressed into the cast stator support assembly, as I *think* I recall someone that had a motor that spun out because of that interface failing. But they probably put more power into it than I am going to. :lol:



If I use spacer tubes over the axle between dropouts and bearing races, it'll easily enough keep the motor centered on the tube even if the keys didn't do that.




Getting the original axle out is probably the only big hurdle.




I found (again) a few assorted 18FET controllers, most of which I think came from Methods, and I don't think mroe than one of htem works at all, but I can't remember which are which so I have to test them. (any notes I had on them are long gone). Normally I'd just test them on the HSR3548 that's already on CB2's rear wheel, since that's pretty easy to setup for eitehr offground or onroad testing. Only issue is that the halls on that are already soldered to the 40A 12FET already on the bike, so rather than cut those, I'll probably stick this X5304 in the rear dropouts of a narrow bike frame, and use it to test them.



I also pondered if there is a way to split out the windings on this X5304 and use two non-identical 12FETs to drive it instead.... :) (I don't think I have any two working or fixable controllers that are identical, so....)

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 26, 2014 3:25 pm

Battery pack charged back up using about 6.8Ah.
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It's still running the discharge test using the discharge mode of the charger. After about four hours of that this morning, I got to about 0.8Ah discharged (at it's apparently fixed 200mA rate) before I left, and disconnected everythign while I'm not there.


If it really has 6.8Ah in the pack (unlikely, given what's necessary to charge NiXX stuff wastes a fair bit of Ah at the final bit of charging), it'd theoretically take 34 hours to discharge it to LVC using the charger's discharge mode. Most likley, it's at least 1-2Ah less in there than what it took to charge, based on my previous NiMH experiences, so it's probably only about a full day & night to do the discharge test.


Once that is done, I'll recharge it again, and see if it takes any more Ah that time, and if it gives any more on discharge.


I may also just stick it in a pod of CrazyBike2, plug it in in place of the EIG pack, and see if it'll even start the bike moving. :lol:

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Re: Dropouts for hub motors

Post by amberwolf » Oct 26, 2014 5:20 pm

I found Farfle's thread, the axle part is inside a complete rewind thread. Even so, just for the axle, he went to a lot more trouble than I probably will :lol:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30&t=34750

Here's the post with first pics of his new hollow axle, which I think is 30mm. I'm not sure if mine will be that large a diameter, cuz it's likely I will just use the bearings I already have in the wheel, if I have any pipe that will (or can be easily made to) fit inside them. :)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 25#p538389

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 26, 2014 7:20 pm

And I remembered finally to try the ebikes.ca simulator for htis motor. I only really played with one estimated configuration for CB2, which appears (when using hte HSR3548 instead, listed there as H3548) to come close to what I actually get using just that rear motor in most situations I tried, so it should be close for the X5304, too.

So here's some comparison charts (which may not properly compare *anything* :lol: ) of the HSR3548 in 20" on teh same controller and battery and bike and conditions as the X5304 in 20".


The first is my typical cruising speed of just under 20MPH, though I don't get to do that for all of my usual riding (stop and go traffic, etc). I get closer on long trips, though, especially if I can pick a route that doesn't have a lot of traffic and also has no stop signs, just traffic lights that I can often time my approaches to so I don't have to stop. Because the mtoros are wound diferently, it means I use a lot less throttle on the present HSR3548 than I would on the X5304.
x5304 vs HSR3548 on cb2 simulated 20mph.JPG
x5304 vs HSR3548 on cb2 simulated 20mph.JPG (118.8 KiB) Viewed 179 times


The next is full throttle on both motors, just to see what their max speeds might be, potentially.
x5304 vs HSR3548 on cb2 simulated max speeds.JPG
x5304 vs HSR3548 on cb2 simulated max speeds.JPG (125.4 KiB) Viewed 179 times
I don't need anything above 20MPH normally, though it's good to have some GTFOOTW speed/power for the rare emergency when going faster is the only way to avoid someone heading for me (when braking would only make things worse and there is no where else to go), so the x5304's estimated 26MPH max sounds fine...I definitely don't need the HSR3548's ~37MPH max. ;)



The next is full throttle on both motors, but instead of 0% grade, I used a 20% grade (not something I'd encounter much around here :lol: ).
x5304 vs HSR3548 on cb2 simulated max speeds.JPG
x5304 vs HSR3548 on cb2 simulated max speeds.JPG (125.4 KiB) Viewed 179 times


I'm not sure how I can simulate things to tell me *how fast* I would get to 20MPH, though, which is what I'd like to guesstimate before actually mounting the thing up on the bike. Presently that's around 3.5-4 seconds, depending on what battery/gross weight/etc I have it setup with. Quicker acceleration would be fun (if not strictly necessary :lol:).

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 28, 2014 1:15 pm

The pack did not finish discharging to LVC like I'd thought it would (or else, it only had a total of 2.3Ah in there). It stoppedsomewhere around the middl eof hte night for discharge mode, and became automatically recharging it; it wbut since the WU doesn't measure both ways, I have no diea how many Ah recharged itup .

So I guess I'll have to redo the discharge test using my own load instead, but while watching it so I know when it'll hreach LVC .





Rather than mess with teh battery more today, I decided to test the x5304 at the highest torque I could manage in a quick test, so I left it in the old worn Manitou Skareb fork that was on the Coil frame, which turned out to be a mistake. :(
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I did the same thing I did before to see what the current pull coudl be on the older crystalyte controller, and held n old roll of paper twoels against hte rim, while I had it at ful throttle--but htis time I leaned hard on the roll, instead of just pushing a little--I was wanting to see if I could stop the wheel.
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I had a 12FEt Crystalyte contrller on there, instead of the 6FET. I don't know for sure what it's current limit is, but 40A is a common limit for 12FETs.
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However, the max current I got out of it before the failure occured was almost 16A, about 750W (since the NiXX pack dropped from about 53V to 46.7V).
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. It didn't cut very far into the paper before it broke the dropouts off and rolled off the fork. :roll:
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Well, so, that was that.


On to the next bit of project, which was to put the motor into a 20" rim. Ddin't know for sure if the spokes off the old 9C rotor on a 20" rim (originally from Dogman) would work or not, might be too short or too long, to lace the X5304 into the ex-Zero rim. So I put the X5304 in it's 26" wheel on the couch, and laid the 9C wheel on top of that, and the Zero rim on top of that.
IMG_0599.JPG
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It looked more or less like the gap in diameter between the two stators' spoke flange holes and the two 20" rims' nipple holes was roughly the same, so there was a good chance the spokes would work.

I began unlacing the 20" 9C first, setting aside the spokes and nipples.
IMG_0607.JPG
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I broke one spoke at hte jbend, though, I'm not sure exatly what I did but it just snapped as I was trying to loosen th enipple. There's also four of them that are larger gauge (12) where the others are 13. That's a probelm cuz the 12g nipples won't fit thru the reinforcing rings in the zero rim.


Since I'm not gonna drill them out, I'll do the present testing without those, so the rim will be missing 5 spokes (all on one side, as symmetrically as I can). I probably won't actually use it on Crazybike this way, but I will likely at least test
it on there for accelearation/etc.
IMG_0604.JPG
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Spokes and nipples off the X5304 26" rim:
IMG_0606.JPG
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9C Rotor and old 20" rim, and X5304's 26" rim:
IMG_0608.JPG
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About halfway thru lacing,Bill showed up so we could go to lunch, goodwill, etc. At GW i found this BMX with 68-spoke 20" wheels, which should be great for the second larger trailer that's to be built aolong the lines of the MK III kennel trailer I'm nearly done with.
IMG_0600.JPG
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So, I decided to use the BMX frme to test the motor in, since it's veryliklye strong enough to survie the motr...but on the rear droputs instead of the front fork. ;) They'r eat least 3mm thickm aybe 4 or more.

So I bolted the motor in, and tested it with the 12FET crystalyte first, but got no more than about 16A with the paper towel method. So, since the BMX didn't have any brakes, I used the set that came off one of the U forks I'd used on the kennel trailer, and mounted htem so they were already engaged on teh zero rim as tightly as I could get them by hand, and then I used the adjuster on the brakes to tighten htem up enough that I coudn't turn the wheel by hand at all, regardless of force levels I used. I moutned an ebrake handle on the bars, with the cable running up to them, but no elecrrical hookup, so I could apply addiotnal brake force if I needed to.

That got me 17A out of hte controller, and the wheel jsut barely turning...with lots of rubber smell form teh pads.

Gripping the brake handle and squeezing as hard as I could, I snapped the stupid crappy ebrake assembly fof the handlebars. :roll: There was still no more curent out of htat controller, so I'm not sure what it's status is--it's obviously wokring but somehow not pulling as much as it should (or did before).
IMG_0635.JPG
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So I swapped it out for the Methods 18FET, which is one of his original prototypes from hte infineon mod thread. it's shunt had originally been soldered over so it would do like 200A; I'd long ago removed the solder but it is sitll capable of at least a third of that or more (dunno for how long, or exactl how much, but I did try a stall on CB2 with it a long time back, before the hosue fire at least a year or two; have to dig up the data).
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Anyway, with that controler, and using pliers to hold the brake handle's bar-holder, and a screwdriver then inserted in between the handle's end and hte housing to use as a prybar, I managed to finally pull enough current to stop the wheel, at about 45A or so, just as the NiXX pack reached it's dropdead point around 30V, and it faded out real quick to <20V (in about half a second).


Since I didn't wanna wait hours for tha tpack to recharge, I got hte A123 pack out, which is about 54V and 20Ah. Figure that ought to let me put some current thru this motor. ;)



Redid the test with that, and got a pretty hefty curent pull of 64.1A, at about 50.3V, for 3.2kW of power.
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I did several instances of the test, and coudln't get it above that level, nor could I stall the wheel; eventually it ripped the brake padd off one side, leaving the metal holder scraping the rim's paint off. I called it quits at that point and sat down to start writing this up.

Bits of brake pad (and paint off the rim)
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brake pads before:
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after:
IMG_0649.JPG
IMG_0649.JPG (38.99 KiB) Viewed 5749 times


Definitely requires thick dropouts sized exactly to fit it.
Axle slightly twisted in dropout after tests, even with nuts as tight as I could get them, and it's original lockwashers:
IMG_0629.JPG
IMG_0629.JPG (51.61 KiB) Viewed 5749 times

Video of one of the tests:






As a side note, at no point in the tests did the motor or it's axle get anything even resembling warm; still felt like cold metal to the touch even after all the tests were done.


I expect I'll put the other Maxxis Ringworm (still on the old trailer wheel at the moment; the second of those is already on CB2's rear wheel afer it's Hookworm's sidewall began to disintegrate for reasons unknown) and as thick a tube as I've got laying around in there, and try it out on CB2 as soon as is practical. That might e Thursday, my next day off, or sooner if I can squeeze in the time to do it before or after work tomororw or Wed.


Then we'll see if I can breaak the motor or the controller (or the bike) riding aroudn the neighborhood as hard as I can push it from a stop.




I wonder how fast it will accelerate the bik from 0 to 20MPH?


Tiny doesn't really care.
IMG_0617.JPG
IMG_0617.JPG (37.95 KiB) Viewed 5749 times

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 28, 2014 2:30 pm

I've been pondering how ot setup this thing as a rear wheel on CB2, which I keep forgettting no longer has the narrow dropouts it had when i was able ot use a 9C front as a rear by simply bolting the threaded part of a regular hub, and a singlespeed freewheel, ot it's right cover.

In order to use it's present axle (meant for 100mm front fork, it is almost exactly 135mm wide) in CB2's regular 130-135mm rear dropouts, I'll have to add something sort of like an S-bracket to them, to be able to still bolt the axle on.

I can't just squeeze them together becuase now the back end is a welded box frame to stiffen the cargo rails, and hte stays and dropouts are welded to this frame, too, instead of it all being bolted together like before.

Each bracket would bolt to the actual dropout slot on it's inside face, and then take up the 15-17mm or so necessary to support the X5304's axle, and that axle would hten bolt to them. each one would be kind of like two L brackets bolted together with their bottom lines mating, and their verticals on opposite sides, one pointin gup from the center and one down.

This would also raise up the rear end an inch or three, depending on how long i have to make them to get clearances for the tools to secure the hardware and such.


The other option is to redo the existing dropouts so that they are clamping types, and much wider (thicker) than they are now. This would mean I wouldn' need nuts on the axle at all, in theory, and so I could just clamp the ends. Then I would also be able to use the same system on the HSR3548 motor (or any other) when I put it back on there until I can get a way to install the pedal chain onto the X5304's sidecover.


It might also mean that I may be able to use the bolt-on-freewheel method to put that chain on there, after all (it definitely won't work if i have to use an axle nut on the right side).



EDIT: added this crude drawing to show the adapters in-place:
s-adapters from rear dropouts to front-width axle for X5304.PNG
s-adapters from rear dropouts to front-width axle for X5304.PNG (14.07 KiB) Viewed 5790 times

And this one to show the actual adapters:
adapter.PNG
adapter.PNG (3.32 KiB) Viewed 5790 times

The adapter would first be secured to the axle itself, and it's hole would be filed to fit the axle exactly. Then the whole wheel would be put into the droput area, nand the three (more likley two actually used) holes lined up with the dropouts on the bike, and bolted thru those holes inot the dropout itself.

That *should* secure the wheel well enough for testing, yet still be fairly simple to make just by welding flat plates together and drilling the holes, then filing out the axle hole from a pair of smaller holes drill-pressed in next to each other.

With the vertical orientation of the axle, flats to front/rear instead of up/down, it should also make it less worrisome about the bent axle. I hope. :)
Last edited by amberwolf on Oct 28, 2014 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: added drawings

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by mat h physics » Oct 29, 2014 9:31 pm

Pardon me for throwing a monkey wrench, amberwolf, it appears only having two points to secure a plate will create a "hing" effect on such a simple arrangement. The plate system may not handle thrust force, such as turning. Three points define a plane, you have parallel lines that will have difficulty handling side force, this force will be transmitted making the axle a stressed member in such a set up.
Specialized Hardrock, still conventional.
Schwinn Avenue, still conventional.

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Oct 31, 2014 1:39 pm

Probably true. It was just the simplest way I could think of at the time to secure it to the frame for a riding test. And nobody would (or should, at least) ever confuse me for "smart" (just sometimes "clever"). :oops:


Presently irrelevant, as I changed my mind on how to set it up, due ot being unable to find all the bits to make the part drawn above. This was even a dumber way to do it, but it was very quick.


Yesterday was te day to test the X5304 on CrazyBike2, but first I had to gather all the parts to make the axle adapters.

While looking thru the sheds (fruitlessly except for one) for the old heavy ~10mm thick L-brackets I'd saved during a remodel, I eventually found a number of other things I need for *other* projects, but not really teh ones for this one. They're in there somewhere...to probably be found next week on my vacation.

So, since I was determined to try this out, I went ghetto to the max to do it. :)


I took the chainstays and dropouts off that old Trek800 frame I'd already borrowed the brake bosses from (to add rear brakes to CB2), since the dropouts are 4-5mm thick, and steel, though very shallow (barely deep enough to hold the axle), and put the wheel in that.
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Then I hose-clamped that assembly to the chainstays of CB2 itself, with four clamps. :lol:
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It wasnt' exactly straight, leaning a bit to the right side, and canted a little to the left in front, but for this test it didn't matter, as long as it didn't come off.
IMG_0664.JPG
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It also didn't line up with the brakes, but that didn't matter either, I wasnt' going to be riding in traffic, just around the local neighborhood up and down my street, to see what happens.
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I turned off the bike when I got off, reflex gesture, so I lost the data from the Turnigy meter I had on just the 18FET/X5304, but I still had the combo data on the CA for both motors/controllers. :/

So from a full charge on the EIG NMC pack of 58.4V, it dropped to 57.2 in the just over half a mile of testing I did. Sag was down to 49.8V, at the max current of 97.72A, for a calculated peak wattage of 4866W.
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I did various test runs, first with just the X5304 WOT to see how long it takes to get from 0-20MPH. That's about 6-7 seconds. Not too shabby, better than the HSR3548 by itself (7-8 seconds), or the 9C 2810 by itself (13-14 seconds)--but both of those are in 40A 12FET controllers, and typically only pull about 28-30A max anyway. With the 18FET, probably presently about an 80A controller, I'd expect it to pull harder.


With the 9C front and the X5304, it's about the same as with the HSR3548--3-4 seconds. Felt like it pulled harder longer but could be wishful thinking. I think it might've been a hair faster (half a second) but I oculdn't really tell for sure, without someone with a speed gun and a stopwatch. Me just counting 1-1000, 2-1000, etc., isnt' all that reliable. ;)


With me *off* the bike, it does have more pull to it, though. With the HSR3548, and just the bike, it doesn't spin out on the dirt and dig a hole quite like the X5304 does (but it's close).

Neither one will do it with me on there.
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I have a feeling that with the right controller, setup for the motors' max phase current, it'd probably outperform the HSR on the same controller setup for the HSR instead. But with what I've got on them, it doesn't, really, even with a "better" (higher battery current) controller.



I did some pull tests like that in just the yard, and the resutls on the CA didnt' peak higher than before. But now that I had data from the Turnigy meter:

Pack now down to 56.8V, it hit a min voltage of 51.76V, while pullin 58.07A, 3011.5W peak. Just on the X5304.
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That's sufficient to push the bike against the front mechanical *and* regen brakes, though only up to about 7MPH. When the front wheel touched looser dirt or grass, it would lock up and the bike would surge faster for a moment.


Since thsoe brakes ought to hold better than that, my next project was to do the fixes I'd planned for them, whiel taking the X5304 off the bike. That'll be over here in the CB2 thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 98#p965698


In the meantime, Tiny expresses exactly how she feels about me playing with the bike instead of her:
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Yogi just patrolled the yard and barked at passing cars. :roll:

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Nov 06, 2014 1:38 pm

I found the rest of those brackets I was looking for, now that I'm finally able to get everything out of teh sheds at once (vacation time this week) and start sorting it out, with the cooler weather (70s-80s F this week for highs, and 40s-50s F for lows)
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I'd figured on doubling the plates up for width, either bolting or welding them together (probably welding). But they are about 10/32" thick, a bit over 7mm. Maybe I won't have to. :)

So a little welding up and filing-flat of the overly-wide slots (which are wider than the axle itself right now) should allow me to make new clamping dropouts for CrazyBike2 that will hold this axle without nuts on it. I still havent' found my tap-and-die set, but when i do I'd be able to use the drill press to drill a hole across the end of the dropout slot, and then thread it, for the largest bolt I can physically fit in there, without it's head protruding past the width of the plate (so it doesn't get in the way of sliding the wheel in and out, like my last attempt at clamping dropouts).
IMG_0750.JPG
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If I can't find the tap-and-die set, I'll just drill the hole all the way thru unthreaded, and use a nut on the other end instead. Or weld the nut on, though that warps them and makes them harder to get the botl in and out of.


I'm stil faced with the problem of attaching a chain: there's simply not enough width of axle, to do it (even with clamping dropouts and no nuts), with teh parts I've got set aside ATM. I may have narrower stuff that would work, which I'll find soon if I do.


Most likely the only good way to do all this is to replace the existing axle with a longer hollow tube axle of the largest diameter that will fit thru it's bearings/etc, no flats, and just clamp/pin it in place in the dropouts. Probably not gonna happen soon, though, because I'll need to build a press using my hydraulic car jack to get the existing axle out, first....

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Nov 11, 2014 10:26 pm

I found (while looking for something else, naturally) this post and the ones just before it that talk about the 18FET I used in the above tests.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 25#p648361

It says I'd cut one of the shunts to bring it down to aroudn 90A or so max current (with a 9C 2807 20"). So, I guess if I wanna try this thing with more current, I can put taht shunt back in place. :)

I've also been talking about the axle mod ideas with NielP over in his thread about replacing the axle in the same motor (but rear vs front).
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 02#p968757

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Mar 21, 2015 12:32 am

I've yet ot get back to the battery testing on this one, but I did go ahead and relace the wheel back into it's 26" rim so it could be used on this:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =2&t=67833

though for some reason I've yet to determne, the 18FEt controller don't like me anymore. Was gonna try the original controller, but somehow I've lost the bit of cable that goes inside the controller out to the hall connector. :?

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Mar 25, 2015 7:30 pm

The motor from this has now been relaced back into it's 26" rim with it's original spokes, and is in use on the new trike here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =2&t=67833

I still wanna put it into a 20" wheel with good spokes and stick it on CB2, but since that requires the axle mod, it'll be at least a little while before that happens.

I may be able to put that 20" wheel on the *rear* of the trike instead at some point, though I'd need to "build" dropouts for it cuz I'm pretty sure the ones back there (even the beefed up part on the inside of the right wheel) isn't good enough for this motor if I loaded up the trike and had a powerful controlller running it. I had problesm even with just the Fusin geared motor in 26"....

I was going to test out the controller itself on the tirke too, but I seem to have misplaced part of the internal JST connector harness for the hall wires. :/

I haven't done anythign with teh battery since last report on it.

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » May 29, 2015 4:32 pm

Now it's relaced into a 20" ex-zero rim, with Sapim 13/14g spokes from Grin Tech, on the right rear wheel of the trike.

Even wiht a wimpy slowstart 12FET 33A, torque even jsut with braking (EABS) is enough to rip it out of "normal" dropouts, so I built new massive clamping ones to fix tthat. ;)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 5#p1048962
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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by oatnet » May 31, 2015 2:09 am

Nice, amber!
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amberwolf
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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » May 31, 2015 2:14 am

Now I just need at least two more of these things.

One for the left side, and one for the front wheel.

(and rims and spokes to match)

I guess having them all with instantstart 18FET or larger controllers would be nice, too. :)


Then I'll have REAL startup torque.


Of course, then I'll need a better battery to provide the massive current needed for those startups, so I can smoke the tires on takeoff... :lol:


All that presumes I can build the trike's frame/forks/etc in a way that it doesn't just fold up under the acceleration adn braking power. :oops:

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Dec 05, 2015 8:18 pm

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1126975
After many intervening events, I finally got a chance to pull this out and start testing it with the Satiator, vs the original charger.

The original I think was able to put less than 7Ah into what was probably an 8-10Ah pack (originally). Possibly it's just aged that badly, but might just be the way that charger works.

So i created a Nickel profile leaving all defaults except the Bulk Current I reduced from 8A to 2A, and checked the Thermistor Required box.

I verified the XLR connector on the Crystalyte pack is the same wiring as the Satiators, then removed the XLR-to-Anderson adapter from the Satiator, and plugged it in.

Pack starteda t 2.2V or so, and is presently at 23V, working slowly upward at around 0.5A, pack temperature around 12C / 54F (was stored outside in the "battery filing cabinet" in the shed, which itself is in the shade, so that's the average ambient temperature in there the last few days (trending warmer now)' is a few degrees warmer air temperature but is falling rapidly as sunset is in progress. Satiator was up to 22C / 72F, but it started from sitting in the house near the trike, where it's kept around 68F.

Just in case something has aged badly in the cells, it's being charged on a little metal table in the middle of the yard, with the Satiator as far from it and on the ground as the cable will allow. :)


edit: corrected some data after finding it in an old post about the pack
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 04#p963623

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amberwolf
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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Dec 05, 2015 10:35 pm

After a couple of hours or so I went back out to check on it, and it'd "completed" with about 0.5Ah put into the pack, presently steady at around 45V, pack temperature down to 10C (50F) and charger at 11C (52F), about a couple degrees above ambient at the time.

I restarted the charge, and it ran for a few minutes but didn't put any measurable Ah into it (still read 0.0Ah back into it at end of charge).

So I'll let it sit a while, then I'll see about restarting charge.

I'll try to get individual cell voltages, too, while I"m at it.

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Dec 06, 2015 6:29 pm

I left it until midday not hooked to anything, then restarted but got same result--shows full with 0Ah fed into it in only a couple minutes of trying with less than half an amp from the Satiator.

Opened it up and checked cell voltages, and found 11 0V cells. (of 36 total) Interestingly, some have marker dots on them already, in a style I've used before for this sort of thing, so at some point I've done this test and forgotten about it. :oops: I re-marked all of them in a differnet color, both those previously marked and unmarked.

Other cells are at 1.3v, except a couple at 1.2v, and one at 1.1v. Those I wrote the voltages on the cell end.

Anyway, I'm single-cell charging using a Sorenson lab PSU, set to it's max of around 750mA current limit, at 1.3v, just to see if it will charge them up an dthey'll stay at that votlage, at least. I won't know how many mAh go into each, but it'll tell me which are totally doomed.

If they all stay at 1.3v afterward, I can then go up to a higher voltage and single-cell charge them again, until they are closer to "full" (heating), and then let it all cool off, then retry with the Satiator.

Might have to single-cell charge everything in the pack first, or at least in groups of series cells taht are still "normal" once I'm done with the low/zero ones.

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Jan 03, 2016 4:22 am

Most of the cells above that were low or dead charged up individually to the normal voltage, but either immediately or gradually over a few hours dropped back down to where they had been before. Some got slightly warm, most didnt' change temperature at all as far as my fingers could tell, or for the couple I tested with the sensing diode next to them for the Satiator's readout.

I haven't tried to charge anything in there above the 1.3v/cell yet.

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Re: Crystalyte X5304 48V20A Kit with NiXX battery (used)

Post by amberwolf » Aug 09, 2017 6:20 am

Hmm...I thought I'd posted about the battery fate a while back, but I guess I didn't. :/ Anyway, the cells pretty much all ended up being toast, but I've saved the battery case for a later use, nto sure for what yet.

However, the motor's now got a broken axle
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 2#p1310982

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