2016 Haibikes are looking gooood

Just got a quick ride on these.... the way they are incorporating the battery into the frame looks great...

They do look amazing. I know I've bitched about the prices on Haibikes before but I would probably still consider one. Looks like there are going to be a few clones coming out of China soon. That should be interesting.

That green one with the Yamaha is only $2600...mass production is getting the costs down

Normally, a company will contract with only one supplier for key components. Haibike is very big in Eutope, so they can afford to be pushy in getting concessions. Bosch makes a very high quality mid drive, and they are working hard to maintain their upscale image.

Haibike with the Bosch drive have been praised for their performance, but sales in North America have been disappointing in spite of a significant advertising budget. (I suspect a major factor has been how cheap gasoline has been recently, compared to the EU).

I rode the Haibike Sduro line at Interbike (with the Yamaha drive), and it felt just as good as the Bosch in every way (I know that "feel" is subjective). Since the Haibikes with the Sduro Yamaha drive costs less...I think it will do very well here. That package was needed to compete with the good-selling BH eMotion ebikes.

The number one factor steering people away from the Haibike at our place is the 20mph top speed. For those that want to pavement ride to the start of a trail it's way too slow. Unlocking dongle sales are picking up though....

Voltron said:

The number one factor steering people away from the Haibike at our place is the 20mph top speed. For those that want to pavement ride to the start of a trail it's way too slow. Unlocking dongle sales are picking up though....

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That's too bad but it doesn't surprise me. I personally think 20 mph is plenty for most people on an ebike. Yes, I know you can pedal that fast but how many people can sustain 20 mph for a long period of time? Back around 2008 when I was just getting into ebikes I thought I wanted something much faster too but in the real world I don't see the point now. As much as I like Endless-Sphere one of my gripes is people promoting insanely fast bicycles (yes bicycles, not motorcycles). It's making newbies think a 20 mph ebike is a joke. Unfortunately I think it's that mentality that's going to ruin the ebike experience in the USA.

And btw, I've complained about Haibike's 20 mph top speed before too but that was in relation to the price. I still think their prices are the big problem but they seem to be addressing that.

Voltron said:

As much as I like Endless-Sphere one of my gripes is people promoting insanely fast bicycles

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I totally agree. There is of course different Use-Cases here. Some people will want to go fast, but in the end I think most ebike riders will not. The point is that bikes topping out at 16 mph (!) is not a joke at all.

I have been riding my Haibike to work for a while now. It's (assisted) top speed is 25km/h (16 mph). Here in Europe you can get Type Approval for two different speed limits. First 25km/h (16mph) and the next step is 45km/h (28 mph). There is no 20mph limit as far as I know but I am not entirely sure. Might exist local rules.

Here in Sweden assisted bikes can only go 25km/h and the 45km/h limit is only for mopeds. I know that this differs in other countries, like e.g in Germany where they allow faster bikes. If you have a 25km/h bike (or moped) you can (must actually) use bike lanes and you do not need insurance. 45 km/h bikes/mopeds must use roads, needs insurance and helmet. I think one difference between Europe and USA is that bike lanes are more usual here and you definitely want to use them if you are commuting in a city.

After having used my bike in city traffic for a couple of years now I have come to the conclusion that the 25km/h limit is very, very sensibly chosen. I sure do not want anyone else to go faster than that. The speed is sufficient to beat other means of transportation on distances up to at least 10 km (~6 miles) in rush hour traffic. The more I ride, the more convinced I am that 25km/h is the perfect limit. I still find it very fun to ride my ebike and it almost feels like a time machine, getting me places in no time at all.

Around here, (USA), it's less mixing with non ebikes on paths and more dodging cars, and maintaining 25 to 30mph is nice for keeping in a space between cars instead of constantly being passed. The car-dooring risk goes up of course...

Voltron said:

Around here, (USA), it's less mixing with non ebikes on paths and more dodging cars, and maintaining 25 to 30mph is nice for keeping in a space between cars instead of constantly being passed. The car-dooring risk goes up of course...

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You need a motorcycle or scooter then. I almost can't believe I just typed that buy my opinion of ebikes has changed so much in the past few years. Ebikes are bicycles.

EVTodd said:

Voltron said:

Around here, (USA), it's less mixing with non ebikes on paths and more dodging cars, and maintaining 25 to 30mph is nice for keeping in a space between cars instead of constantly being passed. The car-dooring risk goes up of course...

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You need a motorcycle or scooter then. I almost can't believe I just typed that buy my opinion of ebikes has changed so much in the past few years. Ebikes are bicycles.

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Bikes begin around 200 to 500 watts. Motorbikes are >9000 watts.
Ebikes include the huge space inbetween.

Samd said:

EVTodd said:

Voltron said:

Around here, (USA), it's less mixing with non ebikes on paths and more dodging cars, and maintaining 25 to 30mph is nice for keeping in a space between cars instead of constantly being passed. The car-dooring risk goes up of course...

Click to expand...

You need a motorcycle or scooter then. I almost can't believe I just typed that buy my opinion of ebikes has changed so much in the past few years. Ebikes are bicycles.

Click to expand...

Bikes begin around 200 to 500 watts. Motorbikes are >9000 watts.
Ebikes include the huge space inbetween.

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Motorbikes have to have that much power because they weigh more. They also have turn signals, brake lights, and other things one should have on the street while travelling motor vehicle speeds. The fact is, no government is going to buy that a 35+ mph vehicle is a bicycle. If everyone keeps pushing the limits we're all going to pay with having to insure, register and get plates for our "bikes". I like seeing that most states in the USA are finally recognizing ebikes are bicycles instead of motor vehicles and I would like to see it stay that way.

I also know that this issue has been argued to death on here. I didn't really mean to go that direction with this thread.

There is a big gap in the performance of a real ICE dirt bike and a light weight low powered e-bike. Tons of possibilities for the vast areas in between the two extremes. Thinking we should be locked into some stale Idea of what is correct in terms of speed/ power / weight is just plain obnoxious to my way of thinking. We are not all interested in plain, mass production commuter's. This in the box thinking should not be valued at the expense of truly exciting extreme performance innovation.

speedmd said:

There is a big gap in the performance of a real ICE dirt bike and a light weight low powered e-bike. Tons of possibilities for the vast areas in between the two extremes. Thinking we should be locked into some stale Idea of what is correct in terms of speed/ power / weight is just plain obnoxious to my way of thinking. We are not all interested in plain, mass production commuter's. This in the box thinking should not be valued at the expense of truly exciting extreme performance innovation.

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Yeah, tons of things like 50cc scooters, mopeds, 150cc scooter, 250cc scooters, electric motorcycles, electric scooters. Really there are a lot of legal options for filling that gap. Off road is a totally different story of course.

My point is that governments don't give a crap and there's no way in hell they're going to allow high performance ebikes on the street without insurance, registration, etc... There's a big gap between a kid's Barbie electric car and a full size car. Does that mean it's ok to do whatever you want in between then use it on the street? There has to be some legal cutoff point. And I think high performance ebikes are awesome. I just don't want everyone owning them or one by one every city is going to ban ebikes after something stupid happens.

Serious question... Let's say it's ok to have a 40 mph ebike. Do you think a 40 mph ebike should have turn signals, brake lights, etc? I do. Why would it be any different from a motorcycle at that point? Is there something about ebikes that magically makes them safer without the need for that equipment? Everyone says they want a faster bike to mix it up with traffic better, if you're mixing it up with traffic you should have the proper safety equipment.

Going along with the original topic on this thread. Haibike is doing a great job of staying within legal limits and still offering a high performance bike.

And again. I love fast high performance ebikes too and really, if it wasn't for those bikes I wouldn't even be here reading about all the cool builds. I'm just trying to be realistic. It's all just my opinion of course.

I'm with EVTodd. I love my 28 mph electric assist bicycle. I wish there was a legal, on-road class for it in the US...something like: electric only, 30-35 mph limit, under 150 pounds. I would be fine with requiring insurance, helmet, signals and brake lights. Without those requirements, I am also afraid that some yahoo with more money than brains will screw it up for all of us.

I would not limit it to just 30 - 35 mph as a rule. A well set up downhill bike has no real issues at 40 mph other than hard cross winds. Certainly a issue on highways or with inexperienced riders. Anything over 100 pounds is no longer a bicycle IMO. Something light with a Astro 3220 with 4 -8 kw peaks? No issue if used responsibly. I don't see these lower powered bikes taking hold unless the price comes down a bit more. Agree that they certainly are better for a novice however.

I think the point here is that although this forum is a lot about speed and power, there certainly is a space for lighter and slower bikes. And that space is going to be absolutely huge because they are really useful. I can see a future where many of you will own two bikes, one for commuting and another one for having fun on trails.

I agree that E bike are bikes at heart... but I can ride my road bike around on pedal power at a sustained 20 to 30 mph around town and mix it up with traffic harder than on my ebike where I don't mind a lot of cautious slowing down when re-accelerating is so effortless But on a day I don't feel like putting out that much effort or putting on my pedaling shoes, an ebike I can still outpedal even at its highest setting just doesn't get my errand running done in timely fashion.

I really love Haibikes designs, look like bikes and not EL mopeds.

But i have a problem with the name "Haibike" i cant see that name without hearing Tommy Wiseau saying "Oh Hi bike".

Reference is a movie called The Room

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uCZkq6Rs2k

speedmd said:

I would not limit it to just 30 - 35 mph as a rule. A well set up downhill bike has no real issues at 40 mph other than hard cross winds. Certainly a issue on highways or with inexperienced riders. Anything over 100 pounds is no longer a bicycle IMO. Something light with a Astro 3220 with 4 -8 kw peaks? No issue if used responsibly. I don't see these lower powered bikes taking hold unless the price comes down a bit more. Agree that they certainly are better for a novice however.

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100 pounds isn't a bicycle either.

If I could make the law I would say that 500W maximum power and 32km/h (20mph) should be considered an electrical bicycle (no insurance) and everything up to 500W maximum power and no speed limit should be classified as a "light motorcycle" that has certain bicycle privileges but needs insurance and a small license plate.

500W is more than enough, well set up downhill bikes have no real issues to speed up to 40mph with 0 Watt of electric power!

In reality in Germany we have that 500W "continuous power" (whatever that means), 45km/h and insurance s-Pedelec regulation over here and it's quite ok. A helmet is not required.

There is also the category of small motorcycles up to 45km/h and 4000W (there a some of them available with pedals, like the Grace One) and everything above is an electric motorcycle. You need to wear a motorcycle helmet with those...

So what's wrong with having an ultra-light electric motocross bike? Moving up from a wimpy 350w Bosch to a 1500w Bafang is simply what Americans always do: we want More Power and we love to hot rod! There is room on the trails for all sorts of machines, we are simply at the dawn of a new era and the established groups are feeling the pressure from a new way of accessing the backcountry. Certainly those who have had free run for so many years are resentful of eBikes showing up on their favorite single track and breezing past them on every hill, but so what? I seem to remember the same fuss when hikers and equestrians were confronted with all those wild and crazy mountain bikers on THEIR trails..... Now, everyone gets along just fine and ebikes get will be accepted into the system too eventually.

Regarding high speed eBikes: my i3 will go 95mph, but I never drive over 80 or so on the freeway and never over 60 otherwise, that's what the throttle and brakes are for. Are you suggesting that we also restrict the top speed of our cars too?

WoodlandHills said:

So what's wrong with having an ultra-light electric motocross bike? Moving up from a wimpy 350w Bosch to a 1500w Bafang is simply what Americans always do: we want More Power and we love to hot rod! There is room on the trails for all sorts of machines,

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Sure. Germany and US is diffeernt. we are uite pussies, because we want someone to be insured if he drives overs someone else and we want to regulate the motor(!) vehicles that are on the road. Mots people want it that way and they don't want freedom. Sure for themselves, but they do not want to get hit by someone with no insurance, this is not so funny for both sides.

Regarding high speed eBikes: my i3 will go 95mph, but I never drive over 80 or so on the freeway and never over 60 otherwise, that's what the throttle and brakes are for. Are you suggesting that we also restrict the top speed of our cars too?

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well, driving 95mph on the Autobahn is considered the lower limit over here, most prefer to have a vehicle that drives over 100mph and is able to accelerate at those speeds. It works well because the Autobahn is designed for those vehicles and we have the TÜV that should remove those vehicles that would fall apart at those speeds or would not be able to brake well enough...

So the vehicle needs to fit the circumstances. I see little possibility to drive a 40mph "bicycle" over here, not amtter if you add some pedals or not. This is an illegal motorbike and police will get you sooner or later. They are not stupid.

I think that the 25kph EU limit is to low (for me) and think that 32kph woud better for daily rides on a bicycle(!), but 25kph is ok for older people or if you travel long distances with heavy luggage or uphill or in deep snow with spike tires. The nice thing is that those Pedelecs are perfectly legal bicycles. If you want to go faster you have the 45kph option, but you loose some bicycle options, which is quite ok. No average person is able to ride a bicycle at 45kph, in reality most ride around 15-30kph.

would I like to have a DIY 40kph electric motorbike. Of course yes. sadly the infrastructure for those does not exist in my place and it would be useless for daily commuting. An accident could completely ruin my life financially.

And btw, I would never call a vehicle a bicyccle that uses much more electric energy than human energy. Those bikes I would call motorcycles with human assist. I see no reason why those should have the privileges of human powered bicycles.