Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

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StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Feb 19 2018 9:18pm

Marin wrote:
Feb 19 2018 8:12pm
Here in the thread seems good to me,
Can you actually attach files to posts here? I know you can attach images, but the PhaseRunner config file is of type .xml and the CAV3 config file is a HEX file.

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Marin   1 kW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Marin » Feb 19 2018 9:38pm

apparently not as I just tried and it says invalid file type, I'm going to send a pm with my email, mind sending them there?
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Feb 19 2018 9:46pm

Marin wrote:
Feb 19 2018 9:38pm
apparently not as I just tried and it says invalid file type, I'm going to send a pm with my email, mind sending them there?
yeah, no problem.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by tinasdude » Feb 21 2018 10:20am

Going to order the CA3 and phaserunner for use with the BBSHD. Will some one please post a list of extra connectors and wiring that will be needed? I wish Grin would just make a kit Kit for the BBSHD.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by electricwheels.de » Feb 21 2018 4:40pm

tinasdude wrote:
Feb 21 2018 10:20am
Going to order the CA3 and phaserunner for use with the BBSHD. Will some one please post a list of extra connectors and wiring that will be needed? I wish Grin would just make a kit Kit for the BBSHD.
I contacted Justin to see if he was interested in making a special edition Phaserunner with cast-in HIGO connectors instead of JST connectors. That way we could make the whole system clean-looking and with a waterproof rating of IP65 by using the new CA3 lower housing like this one:
Cycle_Analyst_V3_Custom_HIGO-connector.JPG
Cycle Analyst V3 with HIGO panelmount connectors
Cycle_Analyst_V3_Custom_HIGO-connector.JPG (75.96 KiB) Viewed 2620 times
Anyway, here the wiring diagram to modify the CA3 with HIGO connectors tso the Bafang throttle and brakes (or a gearsensor) can be used. Not perfect, but it's a start.

CA3-BBS-Phaserunner_V1R1.PDF
wiring diagram - modified Cycle Analyst V3 with standard Phaserunner for Bafang BBS
(1.07 MiB) Downloaded 295 times

Cheers
Reinhard
.
Custom made cables and wiring harnesses for e-bikes. HIGO connectors and extension cables. World wide mail order.
e-bike-technologies webshop
AWD e-fatbike 'Sandkatze'

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Marin   1 kW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Marin » Feb 21 2018 5:10pm

electricwheels.de wrote:
Feb 21 2018 4:40pm
tinasdude wrote:
Feb 21 2018 10:20am
Going to order the CA3 and phaserunner for use with the BBSHD. Will some one please post a list of extra connectors and wiring that will be needed? I wish Grin would just make a kit Kit for the BBSHD.
I contacted Justin to see if he was interested in making a special edition Phaserunner with cast-in HIGO connectors instead of JST connectors. That way we could make the whole system clean-looking and with a waterproof rating of IP65 by using the new CA3 lower housing like this one:

Cycle_Analyst_V3_Custom_HIGO-connector.JPG
Anyway, here the wiring diagram to modify the CA3 with HIGO connectors tso the Bafang throttle and brakes (or a gearsensor) can be used. Not perfect, but it's a start.


CA3-BBS-Phaserunner_V1R1.PDF


Cheers
Reinhard
.
This is very interesting put me on a list to get this setup
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by tinasdude » Feb 21 2018 6:08pm

electricwheels.de wrote:
Feb 21 2018 4:40pm
tinasdude wrote:
Feb 21 2018 10:20am
Going to order the CA3 and phaserunner for use with the BBSHD. Will some one please post a list of extra connectors and wiring that will be needed? I wish Grin would just make a kit Kit for the BBSHD.
I contacted Justin to see if he was interested in making a special edition Phaserunner with cast-in HIGO connectors instead of JST connectors. That way we could make the whole system clean-looking and with a waterproof rating of IP65 by using the new CA3 lower housing like this one:

Cycle_Analyst_V3_Custom_HIGO-connector.JPG
Anyway, here the wiring diagram to modify the CA3 with HIGO connectors tso the Bafang throttle and brakes (or a gearsensor) can be used. Not perfect, but it's a start.


CA3-BBS-Phaserunner_V1R1.PDF


Cheers
Reinhard
.
yes! Yes! On the list now please!

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by burner77 » Feb 22 2018 11:37am

would be nice Reinhard! And great work as always…
what we also need is a proper setup than. If you could post your experience with settings would be great!

I have got some basic info from Justin directly:
there are two ways of tuning the PR to a mid drive like the BBSHD system. Either you look at the total pole pair and gear ratio from the motor to the crank, and run autotune in reference to the crank RPM. Or you do it in reference to the motor itself and do everything in terms of the motor RPM.
From what I remember the BBSHD motor has 8 magnets, so 4 pole pairs, and then has a ~22:1 gear ratio to the cranks, with an effective crank RPM/V of 3.5
So you can use 88 pole pairs and initial KV guess of 3.5, or you can use 4 pole pairs with initial KV guess of 77 rpm/V or so. Either way will work fine.
Let us know if you have any further issues tuning it or if this does the trick. You may need to increase the current regulator bandwidth and PLL bandwidth parameters if you end up getting instantaneous overcurrent faults.


And yes, gear ratio is 21.9:1 and 8 magnets
Unfortunately I haven't found the time to try it out
http://fasterbikes.eu • Domino, MXUS V3 Turbo (with FF & HubSink) and Bafang BBSHD shop • 5% discount for ES forum members, use voucher "ESMEMBER"

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by tinasdude » Feb 22 2018 12:43pm

burner77 wrote:
Feb 22 2018 11:37am
would be nice Reinhard! And great work as always…
what we also need is a proper setup than. If you could post your experience with settings would be great!

I have got some basic info from Justin directly:
there are two ways of tuning the PR to a mid drive like the BBSHD system. Either you look at the total pole pair and gear ratio from the motor to the crank, and run autotune in reference to the crank RPM. Or you do it in reference to the motor itself and do everything in terms of the motor RPM.
From what I remember the BBSHD motor has 8 magnets, so 4 pole pairs, and then has a ~22:1 gear ratio to the cranks, with an effective crank RPM/V of 3.5
So you can use 88 pole pairs and initial KV guess of 3.5, or you can use 4 pole pairs with initial KV guess of 77 rpm/V or so. Either way will work fine.
Let us know if you have any further issues tuning it or if this does the trick. You may need to increase the current regulator bandwidth and PLL bandwidth parameters if you end up getting instantaneous overcurrent faults.


And yes, gear ratio is 21.9:1 and 8 magnets
Unfortunately I haven't found the time to try it out
Thanks for posting. The ball is rolling for a good BBSHD solution.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by handbaked » Feb 27 2018 5:41pm

Thanks for sharing your experience of this setup! I had already totally committed to it, but your comments are useful. I will pm you for your settings file if that is ok?

I have been working on a custom cover plate. I'm hoping to be able to offer these soon

Image

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by electricwheels.de » Mar 05 2018 2:43am

Have not heard back from Justin, so I guess he is not interested in making a batch of phaserunners with HIGO connectors casted in. :(
Custom made cables and wiring harnesses for e-bikes. HIGO connectors and extension cables. World wide mail order.
e-bike-technologies webshop
AWD e-fatbike 'Sandkatze'

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by tinasdude » Mar 05 2018 10:41am

Thank you for your efforts Reinhard. Sometimes as a consumer i feel neglected. :lol:

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Aerialpixels » Mar 14 2018 11:03pm

Hey guys. More updates. This really has been much easier than expected.

Internal Bafang Pas sensor connected and works perfectly. I simply connected the sensor plug in the BBSHD to the Cycle Analyst per the manual. The configuration in the CA walked has a graphic which shows if its connected correctly. PAS performance is significantly better than with original Bafang display and controller. I decided to add the available digital button and adjustable pot to the CA. As I ride I can turn the dial to infinitely adjust pedal assist. Engagement is so smooth its almost not noticeable. So easy to get just the amount of assist you want yet the CA allows for so many other options for Pedal assist.

I've also played a lot with tuning settings in the Phase Runner. Ki and Kp settings specifically. Flux weakening is really great. The only reason for playing with it is to see how far I can push the power. As of now, I have hit a wall where if I set the Phaserunner above 55amps and 4500 watts I can trip an error called instantaneous
Phase over current. At the 55a and 4500 watt max I have no issues.

Motor pulls between 45-55a at 88v. Did a 35mile trip from woodland Hills to Topanga Canyon state park. Road to trails and home. Max temp of the motor with heatsinks never broke 100 degrees F. All done with zero pedaling.

The most important setting when configuring Phase runner was the auto tune. Pole count I had the best success with was 8.
Multiplying pole pairs x internal gear ratio does not work with this motor no matter how I tried. Set it to 8 and auto tune works perfectly.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Aerialpixels » Mar 14 2018 11:17pm

Per the previous post, 4 pole pairs also works. The Phase runner just compensates with a lower calculated kv. Both 8 and 4 worked for me. Factoring in the gear ratio made the auto tune fail every time even if I played with other settings.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by burner77 » Mar 15 2018 2:06am

Thanks, can you post you complete configuration file of the Phaserunner, please
http://fasterbikes.eu • Domino, MXUS V3 Turbo (with FF & HubSink) and Bafang BBSHD shop • 5% discount for ES forum members, use voucher "ESMEMBER"

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by tinasdude » Mar 15 2018 2:54pm

Aerialpixels wrote:
Mar 14 2018 11:17pm
Per the previous post, 4 pole pairs also works. The Phase runner just compensates with a lower calculated kv. Both 8 and 4 worked for me. Factoring in the gear ratio made the auto tune fail every time even if I played with other settings.
Thanks for updating. It is very much appreciated. Did you run at 52V and can you tell us about your experience?

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Aerialpixels » Mar 18 2018 8:49pm

I did run at 52v for quite a while. The advantage of higher voltage is the ability to stay in 1 gear from a stop up to top speed and lower current draw while at cruising. Acceleration is greatly improved.

I made some pretty important advancements today. By setting cycle analyst ramps as follows, I was able to increase max amps and top speed while improving the Phase runner stability. If you are getting instantaneous over current, I would try this.

Fast up rate (these settings are key)
4v/sec and 10 amp threshold
Up rate to 20v/sec

Power (these are optional... Lower is of course possible)
Max amps 60
Max watts (unlimited)

PLL 1000 (default)
Rads 3.0 (higher than stock)

Motor poles set to 4
Autotune performed
Max watts 5000
96a phase current

Battery settings
52v (despite running 88) leave this alone or lots of issues.
Max current 100a (bms max for u)
Flux weakening 35 a (less is slower but more efficient)

All regen is default
Low voltage is set very low and cut off handled by CA

Keep in mind that to achieve these numbers reliably I have dramatically improved the BBSHD's heat transfer.

I have these
Enzotech Graphics Card Passive Heat Sink ,14 x 14x 14 mm, Copper, 8-pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002BWXW6E/re ... RAb5ZZ0B9R

(I have smaller ones on the side of the Phase runner so it never cuts back power.)

They're bonded to the non drive side of motor with thermal 2 part epoxy. There are 16 of them.
While not critical, I also put thermal paste between the stator and aluminum case to improve thermal transfer.

Works like a charm. Motor rarely hits 100F and I beat on it.

With these settings I can hit 46mph in my granny gear... 42t chain /50t rear cog. Torque is rediculous.

On the 44t rear and even the 38 it seems to pull harder while going faster.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by handbaked » Mar 20 2018 7:48pm

i went on my maiden voyage today with the bbshd running a phaserunner.

i am running a 58v (nominal) battery back and set it to 3300 watts on the motor, 45A on my battery pack. All was well, it was really quite sweet. then after about 5 miles i pulled away from some traffic lights and there was a pop sound that came from what seemed to be the motor area. The phaserunner LED was then flashing and there was nothing from the motor when twisting the throttle.

I cycled home and plugged in the phaserunner, that has no faults. I was running a speedict between the battery and the phaserunner so have bypassed that and still nothing. No high pitched sound, no noise or movement from the motor at all. The only thing I can think at this stage is whether somehow the phase wires inside the bbshd have shorted. I took a look inside and that has NOT happened. So why is there absolutely nothing from the motor?

This has been the most epic and challenging build and I am booked up for a weekend away on the bike this coming Friday! Anyone with any help would be greatly appreciated at this stage!

EDIT: after mucking about at home trying to work it out, it came back to life. I didn't change anything. So I am guessing either the phaserunner or the BMS on the battery cut power for some reason. The BMS is supposed to be very high current, more than I am drawing from the pack. I'm confused and now worried about this happening when out in the wilderness!

Cheers. Tom

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bananastand » Mar 23 2018 1:02pm

I am about to pull the trigger on purchasing a CA and phaserunner and I will figure it out as I go.

I assume I need the CA3-DPS rather than the CA3-DP? or can I use the speedo from the BBSHD unit somehow

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burner77   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by burner77 » Mar 23 2018 1:59pm

bananastand wrote:
Mar 23 2018 1:02pm
I am about to pull the trigger on purchasing a CA and phaserunner and I will figure it out as I go.

I assume I need the CA3-DPS rather than the CA3-DP? or can I use the speedo from the BBSHD unit somehow
Go for the CA3-DPS. The speed signal goes into the controller and you remove the original controller, you need a new speedo, which is integrated in CA3-DPS
http://fasterbikes.eu • Domino, MXUS V3 Turbo (with FF & HubSink) and Bafang BBSHD shop • 5% discount for ES forum members, use voucher "ESMEMBER"

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by tinasdude » Mar 23 2018 11:01pm

Aerialpixels wrote:
Mar 18 2018 8:49pm
I did run at 52v for quite a while. The advantage of higher voltage is the ability to stay in 1 gear from a stop up to top speed and lower current draw while at cruising. Acceleration is greatly improved.

I made some pretty important advancements today. By setting cycle analyst ramps as follows, I was able to increase max amps and top speed while improving the Phase runner stability. If you are getting instantaneous over current, I would try this.

Fast up rate (these settings are key)
4v/sec and 10 amp threshold
Up rate to 20v/sec

Power (these are optional... Lower is of course possible)
Max amps 60
Max watts (unlimited)

PLL 1000 (default)
Rads 3.0 (higher than stock)

Motor poles set to 4
Autotune performed
Max watts 5000
96a phase current

Battery settings
52v (despite running 88) leave this alone or lots of issues.
Max current 100a (bms max for u)
Flux weakening 35 a (less is slower but more efficient)

All regen is default
Low voltage is set very low and cut off handled by CA

Keep in mind that to achieve these numbers reliably I have dramatically improved the BBSHD's heat transfer.

I have these
Enzotech Graphics Card Passive Heat Sink ,14 x 14x 14 mm, Copper, 8-pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002BWXW6E/re ... RAb5ZZ0B9R

(I have smaller ones on the side of the Phase runner so it never cuts back power.)

They're bonded to the non drive side of motor with thermal 2 part epoxy. There are 16 of them.
While not critical, I also put thermal paste between the stator and aluminum case to improve thermal transfer.

Works like a charm. Motor rarely hits 100F and I beat on it.

With these settings I can hit 46mph in my granny gear... 42t chain /50t rear cog. Torque is rediculous.

On the 44t rear and even the 38 it seems to pull harder while going faster.
Thanks for sharing. I was wondering if you tried field weakening at 52 volts and your results.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by handbaked » Mar 26 2018 4:38am

An update on my results:

I originally was running 84 poles, 4 kv, 3300 watts and 33a field weakening when I was testing in London. I have just got back from the peak District where I was running 42 poles 8kv and 22a field weakening. The bike stormed up all the hills with a 32T on the front and 16T on the back. I don't yet have a cycle analyst so had no way of keeping an eye on temperature, so just didn't hold full throttle on big climbs for too long!

I had set the minimum throttle voltage so that the motor was always engaged, however they caused issues. It seems as though that voltage threshold fluctuates for some reason on my system, so often the bike just drove off by itself with no throttle engaged. This was temperamental though so I'm not sure what the issue is. Maybe fluctuation in the stationary voltage given out by my twist throttle?

Super happy though, the bike is a monster!

Oh and I'm running 60v nominal battery.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by justin_le » Mar 26 2018 7:33am

electricwheels.de wrote:
Mar 05 2018 2:43am
Have not heard back from Justin, so I guess he is not interested in making a batch of phaserunners with HIGO connectors casted in. :(
Hi Reinhard, we didn't receive annnyyyy emails from you on this topic. The last related email I can find is from Nov 10th 2017 and I replied right away. So please resend.

We've had it on our agenda to do a cable harness option for the Phaserunner that is a connectorized to be little more plug and play with the BBSHD drives, so this is a line of inquiry that we would have pursued rather than ignored!
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by WoodlandHills » Mar 26 2018 4:42pm

Aerialpixels wrote:
Mar 14 2018 11:03pm
Hey guys. More updates. This really has been much easier than expected.

Internal Bafang Pas sensor connected and works perfectly. I simply connected the sensor plug in the BBSHD to the Cycle Analyst per the manual. The configuration in the CA walked has a graphic which shows if its connected correctly. PAS performance is significantly better than with original Bafang display and controller. I decided to add the available digital button and adjustable pot to the CA. As I ride I can turn the dial to infinitely adjust pedal assist. Engagement is so smooth its almost not noticeable. So easy to get just the amount of assist you want yet the CA allows for so many other options for Pedal assist.

I've also played a lot with tuning settings in the Phase Runner. Ki and Kp settings specifically. Flux weakening is really great. The only reason for playing with it is to see how far I can push the power. As of now, I have hit a wall where if I set the Phaserunner above 55amps and 4500 watts I can trip an error called instantaneous
Phase over current. At the 55a and 4500 watt max I have no issues.

Motor pulls between 45-55a at 88v. Did a 35mile trip from woodland Hills to Topanga Canyon state park. Road to trails and home. Max temp of the motor with heatsinks never broke 100 degrees F. All done with zero pedaling.

The most important setting when configuring Phase runner was the auto tune. Pole count I had the best success with was 8.
Multiplying pole pairs x internal gear ratio does not work with this motor no matter how I tried. Set it to 8 and auto tune works perfectly.
Seriously? You rode your motorcycle on bicycle trails in Topanga State Park? What an F'n jerk! It is people like you who will cause the Rangers to ban all ebikes from the park. What a selfish self centered asshole. And insult to injury, you used the throttle all the way, so that there would be no doubt that you were totally illegal.

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Tommm » Apr 03 2018 2:38am

Guys, don't email or pm around the settings, just put it on google drive/docs and share the link. If 100 people wanna see the settings, they would have to send 100 PMs at least... And you want more people engaged easily because it means more stuff getting done.
justin_le wrote:
Mar 26 2018 7:33am
electricwheels.de wrote:
Mar 05 2018 2:43am
Have not heard back from Justin, so I guess he is not interested in making a batch of phaserunners with HIGO connectors casted in. :(
Hi Reinhard, we didn't receive annnyyyy emails from you on this topic. The last related email I can find is from Nov 10th 2017 and I replied right away. So please resend.

We've had it on our agenda to do a cable harness option for the Phaserunner that is a connectorized to be little more plug and play with the BBSHD drives, so this is a line of inquiry that we would have pursued rather than ignored!
I don't think the level of interest of any of us has changed since he wrote you (I'd say even more people are aware of the idea). Can we get the ball rolling, maybe also look into making the grin fit in the controller case, maybe with a custom fairing?

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