Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Get real world experience and user feedback on the electric bicycle products.
squigdawg   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Dec 17 2018 2:39am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by squigdawg » Jul 20 2019 3:16am

Like Shredkid and others on this thread, I'm also experiencing the Instantaneous Overcurrent Fault with BBSHD and Phaserunner. It happens almost every time during hard acceleration and I’ve tried everything I can think of with no luck. With a 52V battery everything runs great and no faults using the Kp=1 Ki=10 values that others have recommended, but at 78V (21S) I can’t make it reliable.

Here are some things I’ve tried:
  • Recommended PLL bandwidth = 2.5, current regulator bandwidth = 2500. This results in a “judder” that I assume is the controller with too much gain oscillating around the setpoint.
  • Auto-tuned with both 4 and 88 pole pairs (77 rpm/V vs 3.5 rpm/V due to ~22:1 gear ratio to the cranks). No difference either way.
  • Lowered max phase amps from 96 to 50A (50A torque is much gentler but still faults)
  • Arielpixels’ solution here: Keep voltage at 52V, use CA current limit and throttle ramping. Also, set current bandwidth and PLL to 0. Then set Ki and Kp manually. Kp = autotuned 118, lowered Ki to .2. Still faults.
  • Tried the Beta v1.1 Phaserunner software with no difference, then went back to current version v1.0.5.
  • Sensorless start. I didn’t give this a fair try because I don’t like the hesitation on start interfering with wheelies and starting on steep hills.
  • “Torque Up Ramp” left at default 200ms. Did not want to increase this since faster start response is the goal.
  • Manually tuning Kp and Ki with Current Regulator Bandwidth set to 0. More details on that below.
I see on the Developer tab (and included BOD.json file), Instantaneous Over Current Trip Threshold (address 29) is set to its maximum value of 116 Amps. I *think* what is happening is the poorly tuned PI controller (due to incorrect Kp and Ki values) is overshooting the 96 Amp target and tripping the fault. The graphing feature on the Dashboard tab doesn’t ever show the overshoot past 96 Amps, but I think the polling rate is just too low. Anyway, here are some observations that don’t make sense:
  • When using the “current regulator bandwidth” mode without manually tuning Kp and Ki, the advice is to *increase* current regulator bandwidth if you are getting instantaneous over current faults. But that increases both Kp and Ki making the current response more aggressive causing the over current fault more easily. What am I missing here?
  • When manually tuning Kp and Ki, Kp behaves as expected: Kp too small and motor current doesn’t reach the max. Kp too large causes oscillations and noise from the motor. Ki, however, seems to be much too sensitive. With Kp=0, the very first increment of Ki=0.0625 (Ki register is scaled by 16 so quantized to increments of 1/16) causes aggressive motor current ramp to max in just a few milliseconds. It’s not clear what rate the current regulator is updating at but I would expect you could set Ki to the smallest value and get a nice slow ramp up of motor current over several seconds.
  • If I set a small current regulator bandwidth like 20 radians, it calculates small Kp=0.01 and Ki=2.44 values that you can see in the greyed out text boxes and the motor current response is very gentle. However, setting current regulator bandwidth to 0 and manually entering those same Kp and Ki values gives a very different aggressive motor current response. Why is the response so different if Kp and Ki weren’t changed? Could this be a bug that helps explain why the overcurrent fault keeps happening when using a manual Ki setting? I'll try asking Grin support and post back if I make any progress.
page1.png
page1.png (149.37 KiB) Viewed 4192 times
page2.png
page2.png (124.81 KiB) Viewed 4192 times
Last edited by squigdawg on Aug 03 2019 6:24pm, edited 2 times in total.

Shredkid   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 2
Joined: Jul 12 2019 7:12am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Shredkid » Jul 20 2019 10:41am

I tried it with the 1.1 i got thru autotune with 3100 5.1 rads but it was not running like before still had hall errors I ordered a new core to see if that is issue the unit was pulling 2032 watts before now I cant get more than 400 watts I think i might have damaged the solder on the hall board but figured i will swap the core and try a fresh auto Tune Grin is not responding or helping kinda surprised but par for DYI stuff.
Surly BBSHD/Phaserunner v2/CAV3 52v,66v,88v

andrebandre   100 W

100 W
Posts: 108
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by andrebandre » Jul 21 2019 10:14pm

I didn't fare any better trying to get the PR to work with a CYC motor.
I have 2 motors, i will try the second one maybe i get lucky.

squigdawg   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Dec 17 2018 2:39am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by squigdawg » Jul 29 2019 1:00am

Grin tech support suggested trying the new "virtual electronic freewheeling" feature to ensure the BBSHD motor stays engaged with the drivetrain and is not allowed to suddenly catch up with the one-way clutch causing a big spike in motor current. That makes sense, and seems to be what ERT is doing with their BAC800 BBSHD kit as seen as the motor continuing to run after throttle is released in these YouTube videos here and here.

The feature seems to be working and prevents some freewheel clutch related overcurrent faults as the motor keeps gently pushing after throttle is released until the wheel is forced to stop. Unfortunately it doesn't help with the faults that happen under smooth full power acceleration. What did work, however, was lowering the motor "Max Power Limit" to 3250W. Anything 3300 or higher will fault under acceleration. Originally 6000W was set with the intention that the 50Amp battery current limit would take over. All other settings match the Jul 20 screenshots above, except Kp=1 and Ki=10 were put back.

I would like to understand why Max Power Limit can't be higher (I was expecting 88V x 50A = 4400W) but it wheelies easily now and is finally rideable and much faster than the Bafang controller so I'm happy!

sleepless   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 17
Joined: Nov 27 2017 3:39pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by sleepless » Aug 02 2019 9:39am

Hey guys,

I also have the Phaserunner and BBSHD setup since yesterday but I have a strange issue: even though I have more power now, the rotation speed of the motor is decreased in comparison to the stock controller (I think). Normally I could go up to 42 kph in third gear but with the phaserunner I am way slower in third gear. Does anybody have an idea what I should check / change?

Andre1985g   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Jul 28 2019 7:15pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Andre1985g » Aug 10 2019 3:34am

Hello, I am André and am new here...


After working on my BBSHD +Phaserunner v.2 +Cycleanalyst 3.1 in frustration :? :?: for 2 days now and I can't manage the engine to rotate normally.

PLEASE HELP ME

If I wanted to ask if someone is so nice and could upload a profile for Phaserunner and a profile for the Cycle Analyst with which the BBSHD would at least work normally.
I use a 14S7P battery with 21,000mAh.

MANY THANKS :bigthumb:

that would really help me

andrebandre   100 W

100 W
Posts: 108
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by andrebandre » Aug 20 2019 12:49am

Here is what i am using for the PR.It works with a 48V/52V or 72V battery.
BBSHD72VSETUP.xml
(35.02 KiB) Downloaded 272 times
Can't attach the CA file for some reason.

squigdawg   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Dec 17 2018 2:39am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by squigdawg » Aug 23 2019 12:24am

Andrebandre, thank you very much for posting your setup. I can confirm your BBSHD72VSETUP.xml worked as-is on my 21s setup without needing to autotune. It also solved my problem with full throttle acceleration "Instantaneous Phase Overcurrent" errors when motor power was set greater than 3300 watts. I went through every setting and found out the key difference between your setup and mine was to use hall sensors only instead of the default "Hall start and sensorless run".

andrebandre   100 W

100 W
Posts: 108
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by andrebandre » Aug 23 2019 4:44pm

I'm glad it did the trick for you.
I just messed with the settings not really knowing for sure what i'm doing, but i kept at it till probably by sheer luck it worked better than it ever did before.
For me at least.

wablaam   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 28 2019 8:08am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by wablaam » Aug 28 2019 8:19am

Andrebandre, I also wanted to say thank you. I am running a 52v battery, BBSHD, and CA3-DPS. I used your Phaserunner settings and they have worked by very well. Your Phaserunner settings are better than anything I have tried before. For me, it eliminated most of the "juddering" and at the same time allows me to utilize the full performance capabilities of the BBSHD. Thank you again for posting your settings and findings.

Would you by chance be able to post your CA3-DPS settings as well? I'm curious on what they are and am still in the process of tweaking my ramp rates.

Thanks again.

andrebandre   100 W

100 W
Posts: 108
Joined: Dec 02 2015 8:17am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by andrebandre » Aug 29 2019 2:53pm

I can't upload my CA settings, not sure if it is a type of file that is not compatible somehow.
I don't think i did much except set the throttle out and maybe a thing or two i don't remeber exactly.
Mostly i messed all i could in the PR software.

jassox   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 17 2019 1:15pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by jassox » Nov 17 2019 1:18pm

hello im having some weird problem with trottle it doest respond @ all we was riding then i came home to swap new throttle with lcd power screen and it did the same i set back to old one and now it doest do anythink either no settings changed nothink what could cause this ? bafang bbshd 72v60amp20ah battery btw

jassox   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 17 2019 1:15pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by jassox » Nov 25 2019 10:17pm

jassox wrote:
Nov 17 2019 1:18pm
hello im having some weird problem with trottle it doest respond @ all we was riding then i came home to swap new throttle with lcd power screen and it did the same i set back to old one and now it doest do anythink either no settings changed nothink what could cause this ? bafang bbshd 72v60amp20ah battery btw
problem seems to be freesing hall signals its shows 2 @ time but wont swap on others what could fix this problem ?
also ebrake flag is on even tho nothink has been changed than throtle with display for volts and on off button

jassox   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 17 2019 1:15pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by jassox » Feb 23 2020 7:45pm

problem still exist rewired everythink ebrake is on only runs on autotune any ideas what would cause brake to be active all the time some setting mby ?

Aerialpixels   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 19
Joined: Nov 28 2017 8:25pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Aerialpixels » Mar 06 2020 10:40pm

do you have your brake set to active high in the cycle analyst? That would cause it.

jassox   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 10
Joined: Nov 17 2019 1:15pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by jassox » Mar 15 2020 2:11am

Aerialpixels wrote:
Mar 06 2020 10:40pm
do you have your brake set to active high in the cycle analyst? That would cause it.
done kinda everythink new all wires all wire also tested problem is there even without ca so i took it off to trying make it a bit simplier but im started thinking maybe my phaserunner is just somehow broken inside cause nothink seems to help on this problem

bananastand   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 19 2018 6:43pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bananastand » Sep 10 2020 11:54am

I switched to the Phaserunner Suite BBSHD settings for 52V battery and it works great (I don't really need to change gears as I did prior).

However, I have a problem with power cutting out. All of a sudden I just lose all power (CA and the bike is powered on, but no power to motor). CA can see the throttle button work but no power. I usually have to unplug the battery and one of the plugs going from the CA to get it to work again. Does anyone know what causes this problem?

User avatar
rowbiker   100 W

100 W
Posts: 151
Joined: Jul 16 2013 1:36pm
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA
Contact:

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by rowbiker » Sep 10 2020 1:24pm

Whenever I've had problems like you're describing, it's *almost always* been a 'bad' (intermittent) electrical connections, often inside a plug or connector assembly. Once it was a broken wire inside an insulated cable bundle that would fail only when it bent in a very specific way. Finding the bad connection ... well, I'm going to let somebody else answer *that* one!

bananastand   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 10
Joined: Feb 19 2018 6:43pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bananastand » Sep 10 2020 5:26pm

rowbiker wrote:
Sep 10 2020 1:24pm
Whenever I've had problems like you're describing, it's *almost always* been a 'bad' (intermittent) electrical connections, often inside a plug or connector assembly. Once it was a broken wire inside an insulated cable bundle that would fail only when it bent in a very specific way. Finding the bad connection ... well, I'm going to let somebody else answer *that* one!
After I wrote that it happened again, but I was not able to reset it. Opened it up and my phase wires melted.

Albeegood   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 4
Joined: Aug 20 2015 5:58pm
Location: New Jersey

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Albeegood » Sep 22 2020 11:02pm

field weakening
I have the phase runner V2 controller and the V3 CA and would like to know what is a safe number to put in on the field weekend tab in settings. for a a BBSHD 52v 17ah battery. I want to get the most speed within a safe limit? Thx.

User avatar
justin_le   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2273
Joined: May 28 2007 3:27am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by justin_le » Sep 23 2020 6:17pm

Albeegood wrote:
Sep 22 2020 11:02pm
I have the phase runner V2 controller and the V3 CA and would like to know what is a safe number to put in on the field weekend tab in settings. for a a BBSHD 52v 17ah battery. I want to get the most speed within a safe limit? Thx.
Assuming that you are monitoring the motor temperature in this setup via the BBSHD cable harness to the CA3, then you can go to quite a high field weakening amps and have the system scale back the power automatically when things in the motor or controller get too hot. So feel free to go to like 30 amps if you want.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

User avatar
justin_le   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2273
Joined: May 28 2007 3:27am
Location: Vancouver
Contact:

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by justin_le » Sep 23 2020 6:20pm

bananastand wrote:
Sep 10 2020 11:54am
I usually have to unplug the battery and one of the plugs going from the CA to get it to work again. Does anyone know what causes this problem?
If you look at the Phaserunner LED you should see it blinking an error/fault code, and that will be very indicative of the source of the problem. Most likely it will be an instantaneous phase overcurrent fault, which can be trigged by quite a few different settings being set incorrectly for the system.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

thompsonsryan   1 µW

1 µW
Posts: 1
Joined: Oct 01 2020 10:13pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by thompsonsryan » Oct 01 2020 10:27pm

Been reading this thread and made an account just for this and have setup my 72v bbshd pretty good and my settings are:
settings-phaserunner.PNG
settings-phaserunner.PNG (68.67 KiB) Viewed 605 times
These are the best I could get and configured the ca3 so that the motor always is running (in throttle out) to prevent jarring the driveline.
Havent been able to get it any better have limited the amps to 55 on ca3 for now and have some heatsinks on the bbshd and phaserunner. am running a 10 speed but mainly just use the 1to1 gearing combination for torque and acceleration to around 45 to 50kmh

Is there anything out anyone has learned to better optimise?

It seems the autotune doesnt work as the springy in the driveline screws with the pid calculations is there any way to fix it? or is the kp1 ki10 combination the best you can get?

Tpesl   1 mW

1 mW
Posts: 12
Joined: Jan 21 2019 2:44pm

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Tpesl » Oct 15 2020 1:11pm

Why number of pole pairs at 88 ?
On bac800 the setting is at 4 pole pairs for BBSHD

User avatar
Daxxie   10 W

10 W
Posts: 95
Joined: Feb 14 2017 9:35am

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Daxxie » Oct 23 2020 10:29am

What could cause the following behaviour:

If I use the brake (brake sensor) or change gears (gear sensor) my motor stops abruptly and spins for a split second in the opposite direction ???

I use a Phaserunner + CA3 in My Bafang Ultra for 2 years now without a problem.
But since a week it shows this behaviour. For now I disconnected both brake and gear sensor and it runs fine.
I took it apart today and mechanically everything looks ok.
Can this be a hall sensor problem?
I autotuned it again in hall sensor mode and that also worked! All halls detected.

Post Reply