Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

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Daxxie   1 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Daxxie » Nov 01 2018 4:02am

Fastwanabe wrote:
Oct 31 2018 11:57pm
I'm encountering the same issue the OP had, "Judder" while re-applying the throttle. OP fixed it with the CA but I don't have one. I emailed Grin and this is what he suggested......

"There are two ways............................................ the values of 2500 and 2.5 will be more appropriate".

I have yet to do this since my rear derailleur was destroyed while the motor was "juddering". I will recieve my rear derailleur this Saturday and will report back. What suggestions do you guys have? Thanks
Grin also gave me the same suggestions when I asked how to solve my judder problem.
I played a week with those settings and that didn't help at all.

The Phaserunner has a serious judder problem in combination with BBSHD /Ultra and apparantly also BBS02.
Someone at Grin should have a serious look into that issue!

Raising the minimum voltage in the CA so that the motor is always engaged cures most of the judder symptoms.
But it's just a workaround for a bad design / bad settings?

Anyway, you don't have the CA so that setting will not help your judder.
But maybe you could try the following:

The Phaserunner has a "Throttle start Voltage setting" (Under Advanced / Throttle + Brake Parameters)
Try lowering that to a value that is under the min. voltage out of your throttle. (my throttle is around 0.9V on idle)
For example 0.8V, that should always engage your motor. Maybe that could solve it?

Keep us posted.
Last edited by Daxxie on Nov 03 2018 5:12am, edited 1 time in total.

endrew   100 mW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by endrew » Nov 01 2018 4:10am

For 74V, just set the Kp and Ki values to 1 and 10 (see image). You can use larger values for lower voltages.
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PR.jpg

Fastwanabe   10 mW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Fastwanabe » Nov 01 2018 12:54pm


The Phaserunner has a "Throttle start Voltage setting" (Under Advanced / Throttle + Brake Parameters)
Try lowering that to a value that is under the min. voltage out of your throttle. (my throttle is around 0.9V on idle)
For example 0.8V, that should always engage your motor. Maybe that could solve it?

Keep us posted.
I tried that too but the setting below 1.00 won't save. I just gives me a comm error.

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Daxxie   1 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Daxxie » Nov 01 2018 6:23pm

Fastwanabe wrote:
Nov 01 2018 12:54pm
I tried that too but the setting below 1.00 won't save. I just gives me a comm error.
Well, it was worth a try.

StinkyGoalieGuy   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by StinkyGoalieGuy » Nov 01 2018 11:33pm

endrew wrote:
Nov 01 2018 4:10am
For 74V, just set the Kp and Ki values to 1 and 10 (see image). You can use larger values for lower voltages.
If by "judder" you mean where hitting throttle causes the motor to spin an full throttle and take up the slack in the drive train too fast, then user endrew's settings work great. You have to set "current regulator bandwidth" on the basic setup tab to 0 rads first.

I have uploaded my Phaserunner configuration settings file here: https://app.box.com/s/5i25dk2loqgkvv4gjzdd77bgw11tnugk

Currently, I'm hitting 25MPH using a 30T front ring to a 40T rear cog, single speed setup. That is really low gearing. That allows me to climb a 34% slope with no pedaling at about 12MPH. This is using a saggy 21s4p battery. This is the best setup I have ever had. I just need to setup a more robust drive train. When I get some time, I'm going to a 38T front with more offset to a 50T in the back. That will fix my chain line issue.

Fastwanabe   10 mW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Fastwanabe » Nov 03 2018 12:34am

WOW, just WOW guys. You people rock. After applying a few settings you guys and Justin suggested I finally got rid of the "juddering".
These were the settings that fixed it for me. No CA, BBS02B, 52volt pack 29AMPS and 48 tooth chainring. Speed 34 MPH. THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS.
Attachments
Capture.PNG
1Capture.PNG
Last edited by Fastwanabe on Dec 12 2018 4:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

StuRat   100 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by StuRat » Nov 03 2018 2:13am

Lovely. Thanks for letting us know.

Have you got a better description/video of the juddering? I'm not sure. Mine does some sort of judkud under throttle in too high of a gear, but otherwise silent.

Fastwanabe   10 mW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by Fastwanabe » Nov 05 2018 10:02pm

Since people are messaging me asking for the XML ill just post it here.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FWQlYI ... sp=sharing

Just click on the download button on the top right and it'll save on your PC as an XML file. Only difference between this file and the screenshot is that the field weakening was set to 35 amps. Use at your own risk.

cyclebot   1 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by cyclebot » Nov 06 2018 6:43pm

Hi.
I'm mostly done installing a CA3-DPS and Phaserunner using the plug-and-play BBSHD cable from ebikes.ca and I have a couple questions:

1) Everything in the wiring harness makes sense to me except the 3-pin Throttle Input connector. Why would the throttle input to the CA3 be running down to the BBSHD?

2) From reading this thread I understand that the PAS sensor in the BBSHD needs 5V, not 10V as provided on pin-1 of the Torque/PAS connector. Does pin-1 need to be swapped internally in the CA3 to a 5V pad?

3) Does question 1 actually answer question 2? :idea: (In other words, is the throttle connector just being used for the 5V supply to the PAS sensor? And if so:

3a) If I want to use a throttle, will I need to make a small modification to the harness (or build an intermediate splitter) to wire in a throttle? Note: I already have a potentiometer going into the Aux In, which I'm intending to use for quick PAS adjustments.

Thanks!

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by justin_le » Nov 09 2018 2:32am

cyclebot wrote:
Nov 06 2018 6:43pm
3) Does question 1 actually answer question 2? :idea: (In other words, is the throttle connector just being used for the 5V supply to the PAS sensor? And if so:
Exactly, except that this was meant more to plug into the Aux input instead of the throttle input. We figured more people these days are using the digi aux buttons instead of the potentiometer and the digiaux wiring allows both to be plugged in.
3a) If I want to use a throttle, will I need to make a small modification to the harness (or build an intermediate splitter) to wire in a throttle? Note: I already have a potentiometer going into the Aux In, which I'm intending to use for quick PAS adjustments.
Correct. We are looking to update this cable harness spec so that there is a 5V regulator inline with the 10V power from the PAS plug. Then it will automatically step down the 10V from the CA to the 5V needed by your PAS sensor and you won't need to find a 5V tap. We might actually have these PCB's arriving pretty soon and will be able to send them out by themselves you want that neater solution.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

cyclebot   1 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by cyclebot » Nov 09 2018 11:50am

Excellent! Thanks Justin. That makes sense. So 10V could be supplied by the 6-pin CA-to-Phaserunner plug, and the 5V regulator could actually be housed under the BBSHD cover. That'd be slick. If you guys have a connectorized version of this ready soon I'll probably pick one up from you, but if not then I may just wire in my own 5V regulator. That would keep the wiring up by the CA3 that much cleaner.

-Jesse

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jpc6000   10 W

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by jpc6000 » Jan 16 2019 9:52am

I want to use phaserunner with BBS02
do anybody know parameters for tune this motor :?:

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by justin_le » Feb 12 2019 3:06am

cyclebot wrote:
Nov 09 2018 11:50am
Excellent! Thanks Justin. That makes sense. So 10V could be supplied by the 6-pin CA-to-Phaserunner plug, and the 5V regulator could actually be housed under the BBSHD cover. That'd be slick. If you guys have a connectorized version of this ready soon I'll probably pick one up from you, but if not then I may just wire in my own 5V regulator.
Hey sorry for not catching this on the thread. We did indeed do just as I described so now all the Phaserunner BBSHD cable harnesses have the regulator built into the cable harness like that so it can use power from the 5-pin PAS plug. And we also made the tiny 5V inline regulator PCB available as a stand alone item too:
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bic ... lator.html

The thing is small enough you can put it inline with the V+ and Gnd PAS cable wires and cover it in a piece of shrink tubing and it's barely detectable:
5V Mini Regulator.jpg
Let us know if you're still in need of one since we can throw these in an envelope and mail with regular post no problem.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by justin_le » Feb 12 2019 3:11am

jpc6000 wrote:
Jan 16 2019 9:52am
I want to use phaserunner with BBS02
do anybody know parameters for tune this motor :?:
It looks like the motor itself has 8 pole pairs, and a 15:1 total gear reduction to the crank. So if you want to tune it in the parameters of crank RPM, then use 120 (8*15) for the # pole pairs, and a starting guess KV of 4 rpm/V. Leave everything else at their default values and that should allow it to autotune and figure out the actual exact KV value.

Alternately, if you prefer to have the Phaserunner working in terms of motor RPM instead of crank RPM, use 8 for the effective pole pairs, and a starting guess KV of 60 rpm/V.

Either of those should work well to get the thing initially auto-tuned and running with all other parameters left at their default values.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

bananastand   100 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bananastand » Apr 06 2019 7:23pm

Fastwanabe wrote:
Nov 03 2018 12:34am
WOW, just WOW guys. You people rock. After applying a few settings you guys and Justin suggested I finally got rid of the "juddering".
These were the settings that fixed it for me. No CA, BBS02B, 52volt pack 29AMPS and 48 tooth chainring. Speed 34 MPH. THANK YOU SO MUCH GUYS.
I tried these settings with bbshd at 2500watts limit with a 50amp continuous battery, but still get juttering :( Any insight on what causes the juttering? It eventually pops the chain off if I let it go for too long.

hari_seldon   1 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by hari_seldon » Apr 09 2019 10:46am

Fastwanabe wrote:
Oct 31 2018 11:57pm
<snip>
"There are two ways of tuning the PR to a mid drive like the BBSHD system. Either you look at the total pole pair and gear ratio from the motor to the crank, and run autotune in reference to the crank RPM. Or you do it in reference to the motor itself and do everything in terms of the motor RPM.
The BBSHD motor has 8 magnets, so 4 pole pairs, and then has a ~22:1 gear ratio to the cranks, with an effective crank RPM/V of 3.5
So you can use 88 pole pairs and initial KV guess of 3.5, or you can use 4 pole pairs with initial KV guess of 77 rpm/V. Either way will work fine.
I've been playing with my BBSHD and a Phaserunner and this thread has been super helpful.

I'd initially set up it up with 88 poles, 3.5rpm/v guess and when I started to tune field weakening (starting at 0 and proceeding incrementally to 20A to find the sweet spot) I was surprised to see that with 0 field weakening with the wheel in the air the unloaded draw at full tilt boogie in first gear was 82 watts. It spun like hell, too, but the power draw seemed excessive to me.

So I did autotune again with 4 poles, 77rpm/V and put a little effort into getting all the other settings (max current, max power, phase amps, pll settings) matched up between the two tunes. Set up this way, with zero field weakening, the unloaded draw at full tilt boogie in first gear was 40 watts, which seemed more reasonable even if it did spin considerably slower than 88/3.5.

Exploring field weakening with the 4/77 tune, I found that no matter what I set it to it had no discernible effect on power draw or top speed. Still maxed out at 40 watts.

Any ideas as to why, if both 4/77 and 88/3.5 are valid starting points for autotunes, the resulting tunes differ so much in terms of top speed, power draw, and effect of field weakening settings?

bananastand   100 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bananastand » Apr 26 2019 11:22am

bananastand wrote:
Apr 06 2019 7:23pm
I tried these settings with bbshd at 2500watts limit with a 50amp continuous battery, but still get juttering :( Any insight on what causes the juttering? It eventually pops the chain off if I let it go for too long.
Update: Juttering gone after reading in another thread to turn the phaserunner to be in pure hall sensor mode. I also moved the minimum throttle voltage to where it starts humming as suggested before and the on/off seems to be much smoother.

Unfortunately it still seems to lose power (on pedal assist, my throttle is busted at the moment) when in a lower gear and going fast on a straight for a while (same time when juttering used to happen). Seems to drop down to 100-200 watts when I set my limit to ~1000ish.

Anyone have any thoughts? I will still keep tinkering

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bobmutch » May 05 2019 8:03pm

bananastand wrote:
Apr 26 2019 11:22am
Update: Juttering gone after reading in another thread to turn the phaserunner to be in pure hall sensor mode. I also moved the minimum throttle voltage to where it starts humming as suggested before and the on/off seems to be much smoother.
Could you post a URL to the that thread plz.


I've read this thread over a few times. I'm considering getting a PRv2 and setting it with my CA3 and BBSHD. I ordered a BAC800 and 750C-72Vn from Allen so it will be fun to compare the two of them together.
BBSHD-offroad-pnp-solutions.png
BBSHD-offroad-pnp-solutions.png (120.08 KiB) Viewed 138 times
my ride Fuji 72V20Ah LiPo, CA3, 18F MC, 1500W Rear Hub. I'm here to learn.

bananastand   100 µW

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Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Post by bananastand » May 13 2019 9:12pm

bobmutch wrote:
May 05 2019 8:03pm
Could you post a URL to the that thread plz.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=91069

It still seems to jutter a bit, but not as bad. I will post an update if I find anything out. Currently installing heatsinks.

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