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Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 03 2017 9:51pm
by Aerialpixels
I thought I would post this because while I was researching this combo, it was very hard to find the info I needed. Hopefully this helps you if you're considering this combo. For starters, I feel compelled to say that I tried for a couple months to buy the "plug and play" version from ElectricERT.com and gave up. After numerous calls, emails and promises, ERT simply dropped the ball.

I ordered a Phase Runner and CA3 directly from Grin at ebikes.ca and received it from Canada in a shockingly quick 3 days. The goal was to remove the stock BBSHD controller and upgrade to 88v to get more speed out of the motor while reducing strain on the motor and eliminate gear shifts.

From what I could find online, I expected the installation to be a nightmare. While there were a few things that slowed me down, getting the controller to work wasn't one of them. If you're considering this option, I highly recommend it and wouldn't hesitate in suggesting you also order direct from Grin and save money.

I will post the exact wiring soon from the Phase Runner to the BBSHD. The auto tune function literally worked flawlessly and the software is smart enough to map the hall sensors and offset automatically no matter how you connect it. It just works.

My KHS 650 6500 FS mountain bike has been transformed into something truly amazing. I love the Cycle Analyst and do not miss the color Bafang screen at all. Having amp draw at a glance, fully adjustable voltage cut off for Lipo packs and accurate watts consumption is amazing. I am thrilled that the controller and motor sounds exactly the same as before...whisper quiet.

In the past I would start off in 3rd gear and use the half twist throttle to get to work. Shifting through various gears to get up to 32-35mph was a drag even double shifting. The motor pulled max watts for extended periods, but never seemed to get hot at all or complain.

Now I start in 3rd and just leave it there. The bike accelerates twice as hard and pulls all the way up to 43mph while only pulling between 15-20 watts for the majority of it because of the low gear. Peak current is about 36 amps but only for a short time. I love not shifting and I love going faster. In 2nd or 3rd gear the bike wheelies from a roll.

The CA3 lets you adjust how quickly the power comes on...super sweet.

I still have to install the motor temp sensor and connect the PAS but so far the motor runs cooler than the stock controller and the Phase runner barely warms up.

I used my Bafang twist trottle. Just changed the connector on the CA3 to match. The speed sensor was to short on the CA3, so I extended it. Connection to the Phase Runner and CA3 was plug and play from Grin.

Don't let anyone tell you this is difficult or having one "pre programmed" is important. Its was painless and I couldn't be happier.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 03 2017 11:44pm
by andrebandre
I am in the same predicament as far as ordering from ERT (on October 19) and so far no gain.
I have contemplated going on my own as you did, just didn't feel brave enugh to try and figure the required connections without blowing up things.
I think i will follow in your footsteps and get everything from Grin.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 04 2017 2:54pm
by teklektik
Aerialpixels wrote:
Dec 03 2017 9:51pm
I ordered a Phase Runner and CA3...
...
The CA3 lets you adjust how quickly the power comes on...super sweet.
I would suggest flashing the latest 3.1b16 / 3.1b20 beta firmware (these are the same firmware - just different Setup Utilities).

There's a bunch of neat new stuff in this beta release but in particular - it has an ebrake feature designed for mid-drive gear changing. This lets you set a minimum time that ebrakes will be applied regardless of how long the levers are pulled.

So, you might set this to 0.6 second so that you can just tap the ebrake and the power will be cut for exactly 0.6seconds so you can shift without fussing with brake timing. The functionality is described in more detail in >>> this post <<<.

It's good if you don't have to shift, but if you need to, this might help a bit if you have a CA3 in hand anyway...

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 04 2017 7:04pm
by E-dub
I will post the exact wiring soon from the Phase Runner to the BBSHD
AeialPixel, I am definitely interested in your wiring expose and programming highlights. I am wanting to achieve the exact same result but I do not have a solid grasp on the process and I fear that if I purchase the components they'll sit in the garage longer than I like before I am able to install them. I look forward to your next post. Many thanks.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 14 2017 5:12pm
by harmonist
Any update on the wiring for this? I'm very keen to pimp my bbshd but not sure whether this is the route to go either, cheers!

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 15 2017 11:56pm
by Aerialpixels
So I've been running this setup everyday on my commute and whole heartedly can say it's simply amazing. Hall sensors can be wired anyway you choose however I simply omitted the purple wire as it's not used. I have been tinkering with a few settings and even managed to eliminate the initial jerk of the chain when applying the throttle while coasting. The throttle engages so smoothly it puts the original Bafang controller to shame. Again, I'll put together a few screen shots or list the settings / wire connections but it's really simple.

With a 42t chain ring and 32 tooth cog out back (3rd gear on my 11 speed Sram 1150 cassette) the bike can pull wheelies from a 15mph roll if I want and tops out at 47mph which I've confirmed by GPS on my phone. I have forgotten what it's like to shift and love it. Because of the low gearing, the bike only pulls 10-20 amps at 30mph which is just over half throttle.

So far motor temps have not exceeded 95 degrees F which is fed from a 10k thermistor I installed on the stator windings.

Over the week I've gradually increased power while watching temps. I'm at 45 amps @88v and couldn't be happier. I had the 3 position switch set for 25a, 35a and 45a. I switched it to the lower levels a couple times and was so bored I took the switch out.

I'll post updates again soon. Today's run was 82 degrees outside and motor only ran 10 degrees over ambient.

Just buy it from ebike.ca and never look back. You can do it. Don't pay more.

Joe

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 16 2017 8:28am
by Robleman
Thanks aerialpixels for sharing your experience. Very interesting.
But because of BBSHD programming capabilities I wonder if its really worthit to buy the CA3.
At the momment I feel ok with the stock controler and 52V so with this configuration what is your recommendation about buying CA3? Does the power and amp messurements improvement makes a big difference?
(Sorry if my english is basic...)

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 16 2017 12:14pm
by Aerialpixels
I do really like the CA3 but if you're cool with things now, I'm not sure it would be worth it. When you want more power, the CA3 with the external Grin Phase Runner is simple to connect and very beneficial.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 29 2017 3:37am
by alswiseowl
hi mate,

It would be great if you could do a good step by step guide/video for youtube for your bbdshd phase runner combo
do one that clarifies all the wiring diagrams for dummies,
I think the bbdshs at 72v+ is the go on a nice downhill frame

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 29 2017 1:38pm
by Marin
C13D6B4A-4449-4B4E-8604-0FC3401221E6.png
Think this will work?
Aerialpixels wrote:
Dec 15 2017 11:56pm
So I've been running this setup everyday on my commute and whole heartedly can say it's simply amazing. Hall sensors can be wired anyway you choose however I simply omitted the purple wire as it's not used. I have been tinkering with a few settings and even managed to eliminate the initial jerk of the chain when applying the throttle while coasting. The throttle engages so smoothly it puts the original Bafang controller to shame. Again, I'll put together a few screen shots or list the settings / wire connections but it's really simple.

With a 42t chain ring and 32 tooth cog out back (3rd gear on my 11 speed Sram 1150 cassette) the bike can pull wheelies from a 15mph roll if I want and tops out at 47mph which I've confirmed by GPS on my phone. I have forgotten what it's like to shift and love it. Because of the low gearing, the bike only pulls 10-20 amps at 30mph which is just over half throttle.

So far motor temps have not exceeded 95 degrees F which is fed from a 10k thermistor I installed on the stator windings.

Over the week I've gradually increased power while watching temps. I'm at 45 amps @88v and couldn't be happier. I had the 3 position switch set for 25a, 35a and 45a. I switched it to the lower levels a couple times and was so bored I took the switch out.

I'll post updates again soon. Today's run was 82 degrees outside and motor only ran 10 degrees over ambient.

Just buy it from ebike.ca and never look back. You can do it. Don't pay more.

Joe
Thanks for your info and enthusiasm regarding this mod, I'm gathering items to set it up also and gathering information so a few questions for you,

The phaserunner has a 5 pin JST for the halls and the BBSHD has a 6 pin plug for halls, did you switch the phaserunner to 6 pin and just not use the purple wire? the plug fits?

I have seen info that the purple wire when used with pin 1 (red?) is a 10k thermistor in the bbshd motor.

I'm also looking for info on the PAS setup, CAV-3 has 5 pin and BBSHD has 4 pin, have you tried this yet?

Are you using a controller cover at all? Hollowed one out, made one, bought cool Luna one?

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 30 2017 5:48am
by andrebandre
Marin wrote:
Dec 29 2017 1:38pm
The phaserunner has a 5 pin JST for the halls and the BBSHD has a 6 pin plug for halls, did you switch the phaserunner to 6 pin and just not use the purple wire? the plug fits?

I have seen info that the purple wire when used with pin 1 (red?) is a 10k thermistor in the bbshd motor.
Not sure where the purple wire comes from but i would be very interested about the embedded thermistor.
For what is worth (resolution allowed) this is the harness i have from ERT which supposedly has the temp sense included.
Pin 6 (extreme right, yellow wire in my case) and pin 2 (negative, i assume) are connected for the thermistor readout but trying to enable it in the CA didn't happen.

Image

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 30 2017 5:56am
by andrebandre
And here is the original controller with a 6 pin connector and 5 wires hall sensors but no purple wire (i presume the 6th spot in the connector).
I feel cheated!

Image

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Dec 30 2017 12:59pm
by Marin
thanks for the photos it helps to understand, it is interesting to see that your controller has only 5 wires, it may be there is no thermistor to hook a wire too, you may be able to test with a multi meter,

Also it looks like ert did a cut and splice for the PR hall connection, I'm trying to find a connector to use without cutting the one off my controller to splice onto PR

Did the kit include a wire for PAS ? I don't see one in the photo, lucky it has a JST-SM and I have that I can use,

Always learning in this game I now know there are lots of sizes and types of JST,

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 10 2018 11:52am
by andrebandre
It did come with a PAS harness. The Temp wires and connectors were wrapped toghether with the PAS so i removed them and connected to the CA but i don't think my BBSHD has a thermistor as i get nothing on the display.

Image

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 12 2018 6:08pm
by tinasdude
Robleman wrote:
Dec 16 2017 8:28am
Thanks aerialpixels for sharing your experience. Very interesting.
But because of BBSHD programming capabilities I wonder if its really worthit to buy the CA3.
At the momment I feel ok with the stock controler and 52V so with this configuration what is your recommendation about buying CA3? Does the power and amp messurements improvement makes a big difference?
(Sorry if my english is basic...)
It was mentioned in another thread, a couple were going to try it at 52V first and they never posted there results. I think you need a battery that is capable of 50 amps continous minimum to get the full benefit of the phase runner. Field weakening can be used to boost the speed of the motor 15-30%. or more? You lose torque with that speed gain, use more power from the battery, and possible heat gain. This has been all I have been able to find out. Having more torque is very nice. I have a ludicrous controller at present. I would like a little more speed. The phaserunner will provide the torque of the Ludacrous and more speed. And not have to spend over a thousand dollars on a new battery. It will not be the same as a 72V battery, but it will definitely be improved over stock. I believe the CA3 allows for a lot of adjustments as well.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 12 2018 6:19pm
by tinasdude
Aerialpixels wrote:
Dec 03 2017 9:51pm
I thought I would post this because while I was researching this combo, it was very hard to find the info I needed. Hopefully this helps you if you're considering this combo. For starters, I feel compelled to say that I tried for a couple months to buy the "plug and play" version from ElectricERT.com and gave up. After numerous calls, emails and promises, ERT simply dropped the ball.

I ordered a Phase Runner and CA3 directly from Grin at ebikes.ca and received it from Canada in a shockingly quick 3 days. The goal was to remove the stock BBSHD controller and upgrade to 88v to get more speed out of the motor while reducing strain on the motor and eliminate gear shifts.

From what I could find online, I expected the installation to be a nightmare. While there were a few things that slowed me down, getting the controller to work wasn't one of them. If you're considering this option, I highly recommend it and wouldn't hesitate in suggesting you also order direct from Grin and save money.

I will post the exact wiring soon from the Phase Runner to the BBSHD. The auto tune function literally worked flawlessly and the software is smart enough to map the hall sensors and offset automatically no matter how you connect it. It just works.

My KHS 650 6500 FS mountain bike has been transformed into something truly amazing. I love the Cycle Analyst and do not miss the color Bafang screen at all. Having amp draw at a glance, fully adjustable voltage cut off for Lipo packs and accurate watts consumption is amazing. I am thrilled that the controller and motor sounds exactly the same as before...whisper quiet.

In the past I would start off in 3rd gear and use the half twist throttle to get to work. Shifting through various gears to get up to 32-35mph was a drag even double shifting. The motor pulled max watts for extended periods, but never seemed to get hot at all or complain.

Now I start in 3rd and just leave it there. The bike accelerates twice as hard and pulls all the way up to 43mph while only pulling between 15-20 watts for the majority of it because of the low gear. Peak current is about 36 amps but only for a short time. I love not shifting and I love going faster. In 2nd or 3rd gear the bike wheelies from a roll.

The CA3 lets you adjust how quickly the power comes on...super sweet.

I still have to install the motor temp sensor and connect the PAS but so far the motor runs cooler than the stock controller and the Phase runner barely warms up.

I used my Bafang twist trottle. Just changed the connector on the CA3 to match. The speed sensor was to short on the CA3, so I extended it. Connection to the Phase Runner and CA3 was plug and play from Grin.

Don't let anyone tell you this is difficult or having one "pre programmed" is important. Its was painless and I couldn't be happier.
Thanks for posting this. i have been having trouble finding info as well. A little reluctant to buy it not already set up.. may just do this

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 20 2018 12:38am
by Francis Janssen
Guys thank you this.
After waiting three months (bought 17 October) from ERT and numerous "Will have it in two weeks" finally went to Paypal for the full refund. received refund last 9 January after escalation.
To be honest I still would have bought from ERT just for the simplicity (I am simple)
Any way my 72v pack is getting rusty from the wait, so will be buying this and now installing.
Without this help, wouldn't have attempted it, bot Aerialpixels any news on your "How Too", would be gratefully received.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 20 2018 12:43pm
by WoodlandHills
I gave up on ERT as well: it seems like the ebike stuff is a very very minor sideline for him. It was very hard to get his attention to address my issues and I finally gave up too. My problem was a throttle that started at about 30% power and was impossible to control at low speeds and small throttle openings. It seemed like ERT was just guessing about ways to fix it so the bike was rideable and it never happened. I think ERT is in waaaay over his head......

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 25 2018 1:00am
by Aerialpixels
Hey guys. Sorry to not post recently. Bike is continuing to evolve. The original Bafang controller was removed from the aluminum housing and reinstalled on the motor as an cover. I’ve added another bank of battery packs to the down tube to double my capacity. Basically 3 seven cell Lipo packs in series under the down tube in a straight configuration and another 3 in the triangle stacked like bricks. Total capacity is now 20,000 mah at 88v. Rear cassette swapped out for a single 42 tooth.
Heat sinks added to Bbshd have been worth their weight in gold. Motor never exceeds 100 degrees F and I’m getting 50 amps continuous and top speed now up to 50mph with flux weakening set to 35 amps.

Top speed at 25 amp limit is 37
35 amp limit goes 43
50 limit is right at 50 or 51

Throttle out on ca3 is set about .05 volts over min so there is zero chain jerking when letting off throttle and then re-engagement.

If you guys need advice or help, feel free to email me.
Joe

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Jan 25 2018 9:59am
by tinasdude
Aerialpixels wrote:
Jan 25 2018 1:00am
Hey guys. Sorry to not post recently. Bike is continuing to evolve. The original Bafang controller was removed from the aluminum housing and reinstalled on the motor as an cover. I’ve added another bank of battery packs to the down tube to double my capacity. Basically 3 seven cell Lipo packs in series under the down tube in a straight configuration and another 3 in the triangle stacked like bricks. Total capacity is now 20,000 mah at 88v. Rear cassette swapped out for a single 42 tooth.
Heat sinks added to Bbshd have been worth their weight in gold. Motor never exceeds 100 degrees F and I’m getting 50 amps continuous and top speed now up to 50mph with flux weakening set to 35 amps.

Top speed at 25 amp limit is 37
35 amp limit goes 43
50 limit is right at 50 or 51

Throttle out on ca3 is set about .05 volts over min so there is zero chain jerking when letting off throttle and then re-engagement.

If you guys need advice or help, feel free to email me.
Joe
Would post some pics of your HD heat sinks?

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Feb 15 2018 7:23pm
by racingame
Aerialpixels wrote:
Jan 25 2018 1:00am
Hey guys. Sorry to not post recently. Bike is continuing to evolve. The original Bafang controller was removed from the aluminum housing and reinstalled on the motor as an cover. I’ve added another bank of battery packs to the down tube to double my capacity. Basically 3 seven cell Lipo packs in series under the down tube in a straight configuration and another 3 in the triangle stacked like bricks. Total capacity is now 20,000 mah at 88v. Rear cassette swapped out for a single 42 tooth.
Heat sinks added to Bbshd have been worth their weight in gold. Motor never exceeds 100 degrees F and I’m getting 50 amps continuous and top speed now up to 50mph with flux weakening set to 35 amps.

Top speed at 25 amp limit is 37
35 amp limit goes 43
50 limit is right at 50 or 51

Throttle out on ca3 is set about .05 volts over min so there is zero chain jerking when letting off throttle and then re-engagement.

If you guys need advice or help, feel free to email me.
Joe
Wait, so you managed to fit the Phaserunner inside the original Bafang controller case? Anyway, I really want to do your same thing: I own a BBSHD and want to mount this Phaserunner + CAv3 combo, but I don't know anything about electronics (I'm a programmer). You would be my hero if you could make a guide step-by-step with even the most obvious things to do starting from wiring and auto-setup, a video would be the coolest thing absolutely. I really hope you will keep this thread updated as you make new progresses.

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Feb 19 2018 3:17pm
by burner77
would be nice to get a full setting list, since we can organize the parts by our self. Seems that ERT let wait his customers for months. And I know I'm not the only one to be interested… Thanks

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Feb 19 2018 6:46pm
by bananastand
Would definitely appreciate a wiring/setup guide for this for us norms

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Feb 19 2018 7:51pm
by StinkyGoalieGuy
I can post my config files. Where would be a good place I upload files?

Re: Grin Phase Runner / CA3 and BBSHD

Posted: Feb 19 2018 8:12pm
by Marin
Here in the thread seems good to me,