washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

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sinisterminique   1 mW

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washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 11:33am

Hi, If you have been on youtube lately looking at free energy videos,chances are you came accross a guy named gerard morin like i did.
This guy discovered a bunch of interesting things but what got my attention is the BLDC pancake motor that he found in front load washers such as fisher-paykel,LG,Samsung and others.
The main point here is that these motors have 2 main qualities,1- they are no longer under any patent therefore open to all and 2- they are very powerfull,the torque goes up with the speed while the amps go down.
The torque on this thing is so powerfull that in israel,they turned a 25 000 watts generator with it... think about the potential.
With this motor running properly,you could power an entire house all year long,no matter how cold it gets out there.

That's the problem we need to solve to use this motor,make a proper controller for it as none exist on the open market still to this day.

I'M currently in the process of making a mechanical controller for it so it can run on high voltage.The purpose of a mechanical controller is to be able to dump in the motor whatever voltage i wish without the limitations of electronics components, we could call this new controller a "Limitless High Voltage Controller" or LHVC.

I need help with this project as my ressources are limited but if we all put our heads together we can make it.
My goal just like gerard's,is to open source everything and let it all out there for hummanity to play with,we can end the monopoly of the energy industry (petrol,electricity),with these motors we can power the whole planet.They can be used to make electricity,power your house,power your car or truck or plane or boat.anything...they even currently use them in russia as a step by step motor for the biggest minning crane in the world...and in japan this is the maglev system that powers high speed trains floating on magnetic fields.(they took the track and made it into a circle and now we have this motor)

At the moment,some folks have modified these motors to use them for hydro power or wind turbines,they changed the voltage to what they need by modifying the winding configuration and such but none has made a controller that was efficient at high RPM.I even saw someone power a trike by using this as a hub motor and the bike was doing some very decent speed but running on batteries.
The issue at the moment is that the best controller made so far can only spin this motor at a around 3-4K RPM but sometime after 2000 RPM the torque starts going down seriousely due to timming not following properly at higher RPM'S.
All the controllers out there,vfd's esc's and such...they dont work good for high speed and torque,they will get your maybe at 1500-2000 rpm (being generous here) then you loose timing.

A few specs about this notor:
Altho when you see it at first it looks like a regular three phase motor,it is not,so an esc will rotate it but not properly and it will growl at low speed and shake alot. The stator winding is a "wye" configuration but for the timing to works properly at all speeds it needs to fire in sequence as if it was a 3 cylinder engine but firing in line so 1-2-3,1-2-3 and so on.A distributor will not work.
So far i have determined the following,the stator has 36 poles,each set at 10 degrees apart,the "power on" for each sequence lasts 6 degrees and the "power off" lasts 4 degrees then next pole is powered up for six degrees and so on..
Everybody so far is trying to build an electronic controller for this but none succeeded in building one that can do say 6000 rpm and still have high torque,they all have issues with the timing it seems.thats why i want to make a mechanical device somewhat along the principles of a distributor but needs to be different as a car distributor off the shelf will not do,nor will the computer for the timing.

As an experiment,i would like to be able to dump all the voltage i want in that motor and spin it till rupture...just to see how many rpm this motor can witstand,wouldnt that be fun to see :)
On a more practical side,high torque at 4000 rpm IMO would be plenty to run a 25 000 watt generator to put our houses off-grid.
It also has been proven that it is possible to self-loop this motor with a generator,making the generator self-sufficient.(was done with a 10 000 watts generator by gerard morin)
All theses videos are on youtube so you can check it out by yourself.

So if any of you folks are familiar with arduinos and such,i was looking lately at a controller from renesas company,the model RX23T kit wich supposeddely auto tunes the controller to the motor,has anyone tried this yet as it seems to be a good candidate for an electronic controller.

I will post pics soon of my "in progress" mechanical controller,wich i am trying to build by hand with off-the shelf parts.... wish i had access to a 3d printer.thats my next purchase...

If anyone wants to jump in,we could all benefit from freedom from the energy cartels and frankly i need all the help i can get to get this thing turning properly.
Just to be clear, i dont want your money i want your help in making this work so we can all benefit from it.other ppl have spent the money already on other parts of this project,all we need to do is come up with a reliable controller that could run at 4000 RPM 24/7 and then kiss the energy bill goodbye.
You can make all the money in the world,it will never be enough to pay all your debts,the solution in that case is to get rid of the debts,energy is the biggest bill we pay,i have no objection getting rid of that,how about you?

sinisterminique   1 mW

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 11:39am

this is the motor im talking about
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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by Voltron » Jun 15 2019 11:42am

You know there no way to run a generator from an electric motor, and run that motor off the generator, right?
That it would violate the basic laws of energy conservation, and that perpetual motion doesn't exist, right?
Because as soon as you mention something like that it makes people ignore what other good points you might have to make.... Esp on a hardcore EV site where the understanding of electricity runs deep.
Last edited by Voltron on Jun 15 2019 2:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 12:08pm

nothing to do with perpetual motion or such,as for the laws it does not violate them,its our understanding of how this motor really works that we need to work on,as for the motor running in self-loop,its on video on youtube,please look it up and see for youself.

Anyhow,the topic here is to try and build a proper controller for this motor, not start a debate on another subject,unless you are suggesting that it is impossible to build a controller that will spin this motor at 4000 RPM with high torque in wich case i will have to disagree,so lets stay on topic shall we?

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by Voltron » Jun 15 2019 12:28pm

Maybe explain what you mean by self looping then... Because it sounds a lot like perpetual motion.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 12:42pm

this will explain better, at 17:14 he starts the self loop part but watch the whole thing for a better undertsanding of what he is doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOLnf_gP7K8

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by dustNbone » Jun 15 2019 12:44pm

Interesting motor, might be a good source of potential donors for EV projects.

But you're not going to generate 25MW of power while using less than 25MW of input power.

No motor creates energy, they only convert it from one form to another, with varying degrees of efficiency, always less than 100%.

That's not a subject of debate, it's well established scientific principle.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 12:49pm

just to be clear,im not trying to replicate what he did,just trying to get this motor to run with high rpm and high torque so i can experiment a whole bunch of things with it.my goal is to find out what is the limit of this motor,i want to spin this thing to its limit.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 12:54pm

in his videos,gerard claims that the output on the shaft of the motor during his testing was 232foot/pounds,more or equal torque to that of some small cars... just cant help it but picturing this motor in different applications,that video of a trike running on this motor was pretty damn cool,the guy seemed to go pretty fast,ill try to find a link to the video.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 1:39pm

dustNbone wrote:
Jun 15 2019 12:44pm
Interesting motor, might be a good source of potential donors for EV projects.

But you're not going to generate 25MW of power while using less than 25MW of input power.

No motor creates energy, they only convert it from one form to another, with varying degrees of efficiency, always less than 100%.

That's not a subject of debate, it's well established scientific principle.
already in use in EV projects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTLzlBWLxCw

and the 25 KW generator being turned by this motor in israel,still under development or else they would be selling it by now,obviousely,but promising still.their limitation comes from the fact that they cant run this motor more than 5 minutes at a time because they dont have a proper controller for it yet but they are getting close to it in china. The controller they use in israel is the washer's controller wich spins the motor at roughly 1500-1600 rpm for 5 minutes during spin cycle..
here is a pic of the israel project,
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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by Voltron » Jun 15 2019 2:20pm

They just need to add a flux capacitor and they'll be ready to go! 😜

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 3:40pm

yep scotty :lol:

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 6:05pm

on a more serious note,
I'm not an expert at this but i am trying my best to figure it out.
I did some calculations based on the stator and nuber of poles and the correct timing should look something like this i think.the picture represents "on time" for phase 1 when energised through out the motor,for phase 2,add 10 degrees and 20 for phase 3 and you have all 3 phases in each 30 degree segment drawn here.

In this design this would be a disk just like the picture and the small spaces would be a conductive material and the big spaces would be a non-conductive material,i beleive we could print such a disk on a 3d printer.
all that is left after that is to apply power to the disk so that when it rotates i will transfer power to contact brushes sitting on top of the disk,brushes would be 120 degrees appart plus timing advance required to fire in proper sequence,so brush no.1 would be at say 0 degrees and brush no.2 at 130 degrees(120 plus 10 for phase 2) and brush no.3 would be at 260 degrees(130 plus 120 plus 10 degrees).

Imo,in order to fire all three phases one after another for a 36 poles stator we need a timer that delivers power every 30 degrees with a duration of 6 degrees. that is what my drawing represents,sorry for my poor drawing skills but i think you get the idea.
Timing adjustement would be achieved by moving the brushes towards the center shaft as speed increases to keep the advance a proper timing.
Theoreticaly, if this distributor works there is no limit to the voltage you can apply,only the materials will stop you but you can still beef it up if needed.

Another version of this timer, wich was my first idea, would be a roller with the brushes on it with same timing but i think that logisticaly,the disk is more practical and easier to make,also the timing adjustment on the roller would be where all the brushes are spaced like the disk but the rig holding the 3 brushes would turn a few degrees around the shaft,just like when you turn a car distributor, both versions would have mechanical avdance systems on them to control timing,spring levers or such.

awaiting your thoughts on the subject,any help is apreciated.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 15 2019 6:06pm

sorry,picture didnt upload on first try...file too big..
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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by amberwolf » Jun 15 2019 11:23pm

sinisterminique wrote:
Jun 15 2019 11:33am

This guy discovered a bunch of interesting things but what got my attention is the BLDC pancake motor that he found in front load washers such as fisher-paykel,LG,Samsung and others.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/searc ... mit=Search
The main point here is that these motors have 2 main qualities,1- they are no longer under any patent therefore open to all and 2- they are very powerfull,the torque goes up with the speed while the amps go down.
The torque on this thing is so powerfull that in israel,they turned a 25 000 watts generator with it... think about the potential.
Potential for what? You have to provide much more than 25000w to the motor to get 25000w out of whatever you're turning with it.

The resultant heat in the motor, for one this size, will probably melt the motor even with active cooling of some sort. They're simply not that big a motor, and would not be capable of 25000w continuous output, at anything like their design RPM. (higher RPM would allow higher output but also creates higher losses in the motor past some point beyond the design RPM of the motor).

FWIW, the torque curve is unlikely to be what you seem to be expecting, either.


Regarding patents, those only apply to manufacturing and selling the motors, not to using them, so there's no reason to not simply use whatever motor you need for whatever project you're after.

There's nothing magical about this motor or it's design. The only "big deal" about it is that it's available in a lot of junkyards for little cost because it's in junked appliances.


With this motor running properly,you could power an entire house all year long,no matter how cold it gets out there.
If you have a gas generator running the controller that runs the motor, or powering it off the grid, perhaps. But it would be much more efficient to just power the house off the source rather than wasting all that power in the motor and such.

The motor cannot provide it's own power, regardless of what someone tries to show in some youtube video.


That's the problem we need to solve to use this motor,make a proper controller for it as none exist on the open market still to this day.
Controllers for BLDC like this already exist, there are literally hundreds of thousands of them. People have used some of them for various versions of this motor for assorted projects; I don't know what models or brands.
I'M currently in the process of making a mechanical controller for it so it can run on high voltage.The purpose of a mechanical controller is to be able to dump in the motor whatever voltage i wish without the limitations of electronics components, we could call this new controller a "Limitless High Voltage Controller" or LHVC.
It's called a commutator. They use one form of them in brushed motors. It takes energy to run this device, so you have losses there, too.

You are still limited by the contacts and wires and other electrical components in the power path and the commutator, and it is likely to be quite expensive to build one capable of kilowatts of power.

The windings themselves are another limitation--their insulation is only good for so many volts. Probably up to a few hundred, maybe more, but you'd have to test some of the winding to destruction to find the limit, then back down from that a safe margin, to be sure.

It will be interesting to see a mechanical commutative controller for a BLDC.

The only way I've considered doing it, just as an experiment, was to use another BLDC, wired phase to phase with the one being driven, and then use a brushed motor (for simplicity in driving it) with it's shaft connected to the driving BLDC's shaft. Then any simple speed controller could drive the brushed motor.

THe catch is that every part in there needs to be able to handle more power than the part after it, becuase of the losses in each part....

with these motors we can power the whole planet.They can be used to make electricity,
The motor cannot by itself be made to make electricity. You have to have another power source to turn it, if it is being used as a generator. If you are using it as the power source to turn a separate generator, then you have to have yet another power source to run the motor, that puts out more power than the generator will ever be able to provide (making it somewhat pointless to do the conversion; simpler and more efficient to use the first power source *as* the power source for whatever needs the electricity).
they even currently use them in russia as a step by step motor for the biggest minning crane in the world...and in japan this is the maglev system that powers high speed trains floating on magnetic fields.(they took the track and made it into a circle and now we have this motor)
This specific motor is not used for any of those things.

BLDC motors in general may be used for them...but they're just motors.


none has made a controller that was efficient at high RPM.
PRobably because this motor ws not designed for high RPMs, and motors need to be designed for the RPM range they'll be run at to be efficient.

It's not really about the controller, it's about the motor itself.

If it was literally only the timing, you could fix that with something like Burtie's Timing Adjuster, or any MCU-based system to change the timing of hall signals for the controller being used.

Or use something like an FOC controller, that can change the timing of phases as needed (and may not need any hall sensors to start with).

I even saw someone power a trike by using this as a hub motor and the bike was doing some very decent speed but running on batteries.
Batteries are the only way you could do it, efficiently.

Maybe a fuel cell.

You could run it off a gasoline generator, but that's less efficient, and much noisier. Might as well run the trike directly off the gas engine.

You could run it off solar, but you still need some battery to stabilize the solar output, or some other lossy mechanism, and with no battery it then only works while the sun shines strongly enough to keep it moving.

There can be other alternatives, but there always has to be an external power source that provides more power than it actually takes to move the trike, as there are always losses in the system.
and then kiss the energy bill goodbye.
Except for the energy bill you'll have to pay to run the controller and motor. It will always take more power to run them than you will get out of whatever generator you run off the motor.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 16 2019 7:22pm

wow,nice disection there bro,you are on some point and wrong on others,

You mentinnoed i needed to use a contactor, imo a contactor is nothing more than a glorified relay,but in any case absolutely not suitable for my intended use of building a mechanical controller for this motor.

My ultimate goal is to be able to dump 100 volts in each leg to run it,then we can see what kind of power we are dealing with.

Anyway,thanks for your comment but what i'm really looking for is help with my project,as for the books....i have read them too :D

You are right about the primary mover, i did plan on using a bldc 4 inch in diameter to run the timing disk i am attempting to build by hand,as i mentionned in another post,i will be using brushes on my initial prototype 1 to feed power to the disk and 3 to collect from the disk and deliver to each of the 3 legs on the motor in yhe proper sequence.

you also mentionned different windings for different loads,i agree completely with that and in fact i think that it is the real reason why gerard looses torque somewhere above 2000 rpm,so my question would be this, is there a way we could combine both type of windings on the same stator?
just running with an idea here but i know ceiling fans have 3 windings on the stator to match the 3 speed they have,i'm sure something similar would be possible for this motor.
Its wired like a WYE 3 phase motor so lets say we make phase 1 with the smaller windings for speed and then phase 2 and 3 would have bigger wire for torque at higher rpm,do you think that could work?

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 16 2019 9:43pm

I just found the real name for this motor, its not a real 3 phase motor as i suspected what it is in reallity is a : long stator linear synchronous motor go ahead and google it.
It IS derived from maglev technology and i found a good description of what it is right here: https://www.hindawi.com/journals/mpe/2013/850615/

Now if anyone wishes to go argue with that website that maglev doesnt use this type of stator...be my guest.
the actual part of the motor that comes from maglev is the stator,next,i will find info on the russian minning machine i was talking about and i will put the link here too.

Gotta keep an open mind ppl,there is alot of tech in our face that we dont even realize.

On another note,about this motor,yes you can use at will and commecialise and whatnot,no more license or restrictions on it.
Companys in china will actually build it to whatever thickness or diameter you wish or you can buy them straght from newmotech in south korea
https://newmotech.fm.alibaba.com/

So in the end,knowing that this motor is really called a " long stator linear synchronous motor" is a real game changer for me and only confirms that im on the right track with my mechanical controller idea. (no pun intended)
I dont know about you folks but as far as i'm concerned i had never heard that name before,
heck the name is as long as the train riding on it...lol

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by amberwolf » Jun 16 2019 9:46pm

sinisterminique wrote:
Jun 16 2019 7:22pm

You mentinnoed i needed to use a contactor, imo a contactor is nothing more than a glorified relay,but in any case absolutely not suitable for my intended use of building a mechanical controller for this motor.
No, I said "commutator", not "contactor".

A mechanical controller is called a commutator.
My ultimate goal is to be able to dump 100 volts in each leg to run it,then we can see what kind of power we are dealing with.
Easy enough with a regular BLDC controller.

You need a 200 volt power supply to get 100v per phase, if running in WYE mode.

If in Delta, you need only 100v.
Anyway,thanks for your comment but what i'm really looking for is help with my project,as for the books....i have read them too :D
What books are you talking about? My post doesn't even have the word in it.




you also mentionned different windings for different loads,i agree completely with that and in fact i think that it is the real reason why gerard looses torque somewhere above 2000 rpm,so my question would be this, is there a way we could combine both type of windings on the same stator?
If you do, you decrease the available power, and efficiency, because you can only use one set at a time. Taking away copper fill from one set of windings makes it capable of using or generating less power than before.

There was an ebike hubmotor by Crystalyte, in the 400 series, that had dual windings. IIRC it had two separate controllers, and you switched the throttle input between them--but it could just as easily have a giant 3-pole double-throw switch between the sets of phases and a single controller. I don't recall for sure which it had.

just running with an idea here but i know ceiling fans have 3 windings on the stator to match the 3 speed they have,i'm sure something similar would be possible for this motor.
Those are a completely different kind of motor.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 16 2019 10:11pm


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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 16 2019 10:21pm

i dont think a commutator will work either,i need my contacts 30 degrees appart with a width (or duration) of 6 degrees.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by sinisterminique » Jun 16 2019 10:27pm

btw,i need to put 300v into it,100 volts for each of the 3 legs.
company in korea stamped the drum as being tested with 310vdc,i would definately love to do the same.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by Hillhater » Jun 16 2019 10:36pm

sinisterminique wrote:
Jun 16 2019 9:43pm
So in the end,knowing that this motor is really called a " long stator linear synchronous motor" is a real game changer for me .....
No, Its not a linear motor at all.
Its just a BL DC ( Brushless Direct Current ) 3phase PM (permanent magnet) motor.
https://www.fisherpaykeltechnologies.com/technology/
Its designed for optimum efficiency at a specific torque output (45Nm), at a specific speed (1500rpm) using a FOC controller.
Any Foc controller will likely run it...but much more than 2-3 kW will probably make it a smoke generator ?
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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by amberwolf » Jun 16 2019 10:53pm

sinisterminique wrote:
Jun 16 2019 10:21pm
i dont think a commutator will work either,i need my contacts 30 degrees appart with a width (or duration) of 6 degrees.
It would work if you built it to do that.

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Re: washing machine 12 inch bldc outrunner

Post by amberwolf » Jun 16 2019 11:02pm

sinisterminique wrote:
Jun 16 2019 10:27pm
btw,i need to put 300v into it,100 volts for each of the 3 legs.
company in korea stamped the drum as being tested with 310vdc,i would definately love to do the same.
You can't put the same voltage into all legs at the same time; if you do there's no current flow and the motor doesn't move.

You must put a positive voltage on one phase, and a negative or ground on another. THis is the same with WYE or Delta configurations.

Remember the central WYE point is only connecting the phases to each other, it doesn't connect to the world outside.


If you want 300v you'll need a 300v battery (or other DC power source) to power it, which will effectively put 150v across each of the two active phases.

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