Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Solar, wind, hydro and other non-fossil sources of electricity.
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e-beach   1.21 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by e-beach » Jan 22 2021 6:06pm

Generator wrote:
Jan 22 2021 4:33pm
Anyway to get picture of this structure?

....
This from 1936
Santa monica pier 1936.JPG
Santa monica pier 1936.JPG (164.41 KiB) Viewed 266 times
https://digital.smpl.org/digital/colle ... ve/id/5768
Santa Monica Pier Breakwater built in 1934.JPG
Santa Monica Pier Breakwater built in 1934.JPG (111.42 KiB) Viewed 264 times
https://digital.smpl.org/digital/collec ... ve/id/5763
This from 1960
Santa Monica Pier 1960.JPG
Santa Monica Pier 1960.JPG (142.55 KiB) Viewed 266 times
https://64.media.tumblr.com/746093a6415 ... 1_1280.jpg
https://westside-historic.tumblr.com/po ... -nice-view

This from 2021. The white spots are from the breakwater rocks standing above the tideline.
Santa Monica Pier 2021.JPG
Santa Monica Pier 2021.JPG (59.62 KiB) Viewed 266 times
It is evident that 85 years of ocean erosion has lowered the pile somewhat, but with some maintenance every 20 years of so the pile of rocks can be kept high enough for the propose.

[youtube]PcKSj9HWKIk[/youtube]



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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by Hillhater » Jan 22 2021 8:17pm

e-beach
you have miss understood the concept of a “piled” barrier for the containment of a head of water
you are thinking of it a a “pile” of rocks and sand, used as a breakwater for waves....whilst the OP was indicating a “Pile” wall made of steel segments , as used for Dock walls etc,.driven into the bed of the estuary or bay to retain the tide as it ebbs etc
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e-beach   1.21 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by e-beach » Jan 22 2021 9:13pm

The OP quite clearly showed piles of rocks in the concept video. Did you miss it? :P
Piles of rocks and a road.JPG
Piles of rocks and a road.JPG (67.81 KiB) Viewed 250 times
piles of rocks 2.JPG
piles of rocks 2.JPG (86.81 KiB) Viewed 249 times
:D :bolt:
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

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e-beach   1.21 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by e-beach » Jan 22 2021 9:24pm

As for concrete pier pilings, they are used all over the world and would work as well. :wink:

:D :bolt:
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by Hillhater » Jan 22 2021 9:33pm

e-beach wrote:
Jan 22 2021 9:13pm
The OP quite clearly showed piles of rocks in the concept video. Did you miss it? :P
No, i didnt miss it.....nor the commentary which said that was what they DID NOT WANT TO DO !
They were proposing a system of individual piled metal wall sections to avoid the need for a rock and sand type of barrage.
So ..realising i am wasting my time here , i will leave you guys floundering around with your mis understandings , and lack of basic engineering knowledge to get on with this wonderous ne concept..
Good luck.! :roll:
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e-beach   1.21 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by e-beach » Jan 22 2021 11:12pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jan 22 2021 9:33pm

They were proposing a system of individual piled metal wall sections to avoid the need for a rock and sand type of barrage.
...Good Luck!
Thank you! I can always use good luck!

As for the piled metal walls, think ship yards, the Panama Canal, the Suez Canal. All over the world concrete and steel walls have been use to hold back the sea and other large body's of water. It is very old engineering. Thinking that the whole idea is impossible and that it will all just wash away is silly. :wink:

:D :bolt:
Favorite Quotes:
"This is L.A., sugar. There is no 'over the top." Chris Erskine
"At a certain point the entropy wins." Maria Helena Braga

Current Build: ProFlex 757 Expert full suspension. Yescomusa 36v 800w Rear DD, upgraded 10AWG solid core through axle phase wires. 15ah Headway, 1000+ cycles, 80% DOD 30A Tronsung controller.

Past: Trek 4500 Yescomusa 36v 800w front DD.
Liahona, Yescomusa 36v 800w generic front DD.
1992 Trek 800, Yescomusa 800w 36v front DD.

JackFlorey   100 kW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by JackFlorey » Jan 22 2021 11:20pm

e-beach wrote:
Jan 22 2021 11:12pm
As for the piled metal walls, think ship yards, the Panama Canal, the Suez Canal.
Those are examples of concrete walls backed by earth.

It is a common misconception that in such cases the concrete carry the loads. People think the same thing of roads; they think the asphalt, concrete etc carries the loads of the vehicles. It does not. The EARTH carries the loads. The concrete/asphalt prevents erosion and keeps the earth (relatively) dry.
All over the world concrete and steel walls have been use to hold back the sea and other large body's of water. It is very old engineering. Thinking that the whole idea is impossible and that it will all just wash away is silly.
Agreed. People have been doing this for centuries. Note how many people use thin sectioned walls to do this, vs. riprap and concrete backed by earth. There is a reason, and it's not because no one was smart enough before now to do it right.

Generator   1 W

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by Generator » Jan 25 2021 8:21pm

JackFlorey wrote:
Jan 22 2021 11:20pm
Those are examples of concrete walls backed by earth.
I think there is some misunderstanding in our discussion. Let me try another way.

In a flowing river water, If I insert a Steel Pole of 12 inch wide (EYE BEAM) about 12 ft deep and leave 8 ft on top, would that Pole bend because of flowing water? [consider that river bed is reasonably Hard or is rock]

Now your answer is Yes, then you can stop next experiment. Because you can see Wooden Poles in sea water standing there since last 100s of years.

Still with me?

Okay, now insert another Pole of same size next to it 12 inch apart. keep on inserting the poles till whole river width is full. Each individual pole will have same amount of force acting on them, considering the river bed is symmetrical/Rectangular.

Are these poles standing tall without bending? If your answer is yes, then keep reading.


Now fill the gap of these poles with another set of poles... what happens? Is the load on each pole increased? No, its same when we inserted the first Pole. Now the river water raises, because you blocked the flow... It will come up to 8 ft and flow over the pole height... But the Poles don't bend, because they can withstand against the lateral force from water. They are Deep enough to get toppled because of the torque generated.... You can add more support to them using bars on either side.

I think you just built a Dam. Congratulations All Civil Engineers.

JackFlorey   100 kW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by JackFlorey » Jan 25 2021 10:40pm

Generator wrote:
Jan 25 2021 8:21pm
In a flowing river water, If I insert a Steel Pole of 12 inch wide (EYE BEAM) about 12 ft deep and leave 8 ft on top, would that Pole bend because of flowing water? [consider that river bed is reasonably Hard or is rock]
Nope.
Okay, now insert another Pole of same size next to it 12 inch apart. keep on inserting the poles till whole river width is full. Each individual pole will have same amount of force acting on them, considering the river bed is symmetrical/Rectangular.
That is what you miss.

Do one pole like that and you will only see a few pounds acting on it; the friction of the water and the pipe. Put two poles like that - same thing.

Now fill the river with poles. Now you have made a dam and the water starts building up. Three feet, five feet, eight feet - the water pools behind it. And those few pounds of force that you saw before? Now each of those 12 inch poles have to support 2300 pounds of water pressure behind it - over a ton. Now, that's not going to bend your I-beam because your I-beam weighs 4000 lbs to begin with.

But the water at the base is now exerting a force of 4psi. Steel can resist that just fine - but dirt? Water will squirt through and start to erode that instantly, and your dam will fail within hours as its base is eroded away.

Unless, of course, you weld all those together so they don't leak and make sure they are deep enough that water can't leak around it.

But now you have another problem. Let's say your dam is 20 feet across. Now you have 23 TONS of force trying to topple that dam. If you are in rock you are probably OK. But dirt? That dirt will get waterlogged and soft and pretty soon you will see your dam slowly topple over.

"But what if we bend it, to get the strength of an arch, and anchor it at the sides in rock to resist that force?" - Yes, that will work. You now have a solid dam, engineered to resist water pressure, made of 40 tons of steel welded together, and anchored into convenient rocks in the side of the hill. Hope you did your job on rust prevention though!

You are now starting to see the issues with engineering for those volumes of water.
I think you just built a Dam. Congratulations All Civil Engineers.
Yes we did! And that dam is absolutely nothing like a bunch of thin sections of wall simply lowered into place. It is a 40 ton solid piece of steel, driven 12 feet into good foundation, anchored by rock on both sides.

Can you do that in the ocean? If you have rock in just the right place, and can drive those beams in, and can weld them, and can anchor them to solid rock - then yes, you can do it. Or perhaps there are no convenient rocks and you have to add your own. Congratulations, you have invented riprap!

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nicobie   1 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by nicobie » Jan 26 2021 4:38pm

I'm sorry but this thread is funny.

No offence.
Take it easy... but take it. (Woody Guthrie)

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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by Hillhater » Jan 26 2021 4:54pm

Generator wrote:
Jan 25 2021 8:21pm
I think there is some misunderstanding in our discussion. ........
......., If I insert a Steel Pole of 12 inch wide (EYE BEAM)
............for the Engineers here,...that would be an “I” BEAM ..! :wink: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Generating Power 24/7 by using Tides

Post by Generator » Feb 02 2021 3:19am

JackFlorey wrote:
Jan 25 2021 10:40pm
Congratulations, you have invented riprap!
I found one such RipRap's picture and there are many in existence built by some real Civil engineering firms.
See this pic and tell them they are stupid and it doesn't work and laugh at them.

Image

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