Bad News for Solar Panel Industry
- Thread starter Harold in CR
- Start date
Sounds more like bad news for the US solar industry, good news for solar purchasers. Basically the "problem" is that chinese cell prices have dropped so much that US based plants cant make enough money to satisfy their investors. I'll take affordable cells over rich US investors
bigmoose
1 MW
We now know how all those low priced, high performing cells were making it to eBay. Very Good news for solar, not so much for US industry...
mdd0127
100 kW
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2008
- Messages
- 1,084
Just wait until someone gets smart and does something about the Chinese currency manipulation that's going on right now. The fact that their government is subsidizing their alternative energy industries so heavily that it makes it impossible for honest business in other countries to compete should be dealt with immediately. All of you guys that don't care where your crap comes from and just want the cheapest price should really spend some time thinking about the global economic situation and your place in it. Just to put things in perspective....if everyone bought everything at Walmart......EVERYONE WOULD HAVE TO WORK FOR WALMART. If everyone buys everything from china, everyone will have to work for a Chinese business...or better yet, since the Chinese government basically funds and owns business in China, we'll be working for the Chinese government. This is economic slavery at its finest and we are buying our way towards it one dollar at a time.
Boycott disposable, unsustainable items and items from countries that interfere with free, honest trade and you might be able to live as an independent person in a free country with a variety of jobs to choose from in ten years.
Boycott disposable, unsustainable items and items from countries that interfere with free, honest trade and you might be able to live as an independent person in a free country with a variety of jobs to choose from in ten years.
dnmun
1 PW
even better is to give up your job and retire. then you have no income to support the chinese slave laborers and you can then spend your free time fishing.
maybe all you republican guys can explain why the republicans terminated the tax incentives for wind farms in this country. or did osamaobama do that too?
i do thank the republicans for maintaining the ethanol boondoggle. we get so much more money in rent for our farm than if corn had a normal 'free' market. is that cargill trading at new highs? never know there is an excess of ethanol that they can't sell because it is not worth anything wihtout the free guvment money.
tell me more about poor people on food stamps, guvment bailouts, thank you mr bush.
maybe all you republican guys can explain why the republicans terminated the tax incentives for wind farms in this country. or did osamaobama do that too?
i do thank the republicans for maintaining the ethanol boondoggle. we get so much more money in rent for our farm than if corn had a normal 'free' market. is that cargill trading at new highs? never know there is an excess of ethanol that they can't sell because it is not worth anything wihtout the free guvment money.
tell me more about poor people on food stamps, guvment bailouts, thank you mr bush.
mettleramiel
10 W
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2007
- Messages
- 78
mdd0127 said:
So then I guess every business that get's subsidized by their government is dishonest and should be "dealt with immediately?" Every country that can afford to subsidizes some industries even if they export it. The US subsidizes corn, Canada its lumber, should they be stopped before the whole world ends up working for one of their governments?
I don't see why people have such a problem with buying things from China. If we all stopped doing it, it may improve domestic business, but what would happen to China? Don't Chinese people need to make a living too?
People will always want to buy things for less and many people will sacrifice quality to get that lower price. China has found a way to capitolize on that basic human truth, good for them! If America could pay their employees less and do the same thing, you better believe that they would too. It's just basic business sense.
TylerDurden
100 GW
Good?... Nothing to stop them from utilizing child, conscripted labor and underpaid labor.mettleramiel said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Labor_Watch
mettleramiel
10 W
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2007
- Messages
- 78
I never said anything about China's labour practices.
etard
100 kW
mettleramiel said:
Jeremy Harris
100 MW
I don't disagree with the moral principles being expounded at all, but learned years ago that honourable principles and real-life were often partly incompatible.
Just about every government in the world practises some form of preferential support for it's own industries and exports. Some even blackmail their supposed allies to earn revenue, so it's probably a good idea to stop throwing metaphorical stones at other governments behaviours until such time as you can be sure that the democratically elected government in your own country doesn't behave in the same way as the Chinese government when it comes to subsidies and restrictive trade practices.
China has some immense environmental challenges; it's domestic growth is fuelling a consumer boom, which is in turn placing terrific demands on the energy infrastructure. They are building vast numbers of new power stations, often dirty coal fired ones, to try and meet the need, but have also realised that they will need to bow to pressure to clean up their act from the countries they export to. One consequence of this has been a massive government investment in alternative energy. It's no accident that the majority of solar, photovoltaic and small scale wind turbines come from China, nor is it an accident that China makes more electric vehicles than any other country in the world. One spin off from this investment is that the vast majority of the ebike components that are available to us at a reasonable price were originally intended for the Chinese domestic market (the ebike export business is a minute proportion of Chinese ebike sales - there are literally millions of ebikes on the streets in China).
The bottom line is that we in the West have clung on to our reliance on oil for far longer than was reasonable, almost certainly as a result of governments being influenced by the powerful oil and car lobby. China had the vision to invest in alternative energy earlier in it's industrial development, and to a far greater degree, than the West and are now reaping the benefits in terms of volume production capability and cheap exports.
If there's a lesson from this it's to recognise that allowing large corporations and industry to corrupt government policy is not necessarily a good thing. It's also worth noting that democracy can be over-rated as a form of government - sometimes a benign dictatorship can be a more effective way of managing a country (although like all forms of government, it's far from perfect).
Jeremy
Just about every government in the world practises some form of preferential support for it's own industries and exports. Some even blackmail their supposed allies to earn revenue, so it's probably a good idea to stop throwing metaphorical stones at other governments behaviours until such time as you can be sure that the democratically elected government in your own country doesn't behave in the same way as the Chinese government when it comes to subsidies and restrictive trade practices.
China has some immense environmental challenges; it's domestic growth is fuelling a consumer boom, which is in turn placing terrific demands on the energy infrastructure. They are building vast numbers of new power stations, often dirty coal fired ones, to try and meet the need, but have also realised that they will need to bow to pressure to clean up their act from the countries they export to. One consequence of this has been a massive government investment in alternative energy. It's no accident that the majority of solar, photovoltaic and small scale wind turbines come from China, nor is it an accident that China makes more electric vehicles than any other country in the world. One spin off from this investment is that the vast majority of the ebike components that are available to us at a reasonable price were originally intended for the Chinese domestic market (the ebike export business is a minute proportion of Chinese ebike sales - there are literally millions of ebikes on the streets in China).
The bottom line is that we in the West have clung on to our reliance on oil for far longer than was reasonable, almost certainly as a result of governments being influenced by the powerful oil and car lobby. China had the vision to invest in alternative energy earlier in it's industrial development, and to a far greater degree, than the West and are now reaping the benefits in terms of volume production capability and cheap exports.
If there's a lesson from this it's to recognise that allowing large corporations and industry to corrupt government policy is not necessarily a good thing. It's also worth noting that democracy can be over-rated as a form of government - sometimes a benign dictatorship can be a more effective way of managing a country (although like all forms of government, it's far from perfect).
Jeremy
Lessss
1 MW
Won't make a damn bit of difference to me if made in the US or China. For the past 65 years the US has been playing dirty tricks to maintain economic dominance and now they've lost it due to their own greed. They thought they could move their production out of the US and into China and maintain control and sell the product back into the US. They were wrong. Now they are desperately trying to maintain control over IP. They will fail in the end. Eventually their power structure the CIA will lose it's blank check financing, and it's ability to manoeuver the country into economic wars to benefit the rich. Their Corporations will slip from their control becoming more globally diverse in it's control boards. Then we will see the slow degradation of US infrastructure and society down to the Mexican level because the US rich control the politicians, and they will protect their masters over the good of the nation till the end. Eventually those same rich will lose their fortunes the same way the Roman leading families did, the way the European "Nobility" did and the way the English did. They will become a small pool with little influence on a great Chinese sea.
John in CR
100 TW
Cheaper solar panels sounds like good news to me. The problem won't occur until the Chinese wake up to find that they've been making most of the world's stuff, and getting only worthless pieces of paper in return.
Gordo
100 kW
mettleramiel said:
I began my working life in the forest 52 years ago and have worked in all facets of the Canadian lumber industry. At one time we had 100's of small logging companies and 100's of sawmills. We had approximately 25, in and around this city of 100,000. Most were running 3 shifts. Now we have one mill running 1 shift. At one time were were exporting lumber to China (for Weyerhaeuser US) which was made into door blanks, shipped direct to the US as a Canadian Product and sold to Home Depot. As I have never been able to find one dollar of subsidy anywhere in the industry, I always ask where it is? To the contrary, the entire lumber industry has been taxed out of existence. I have read all I can find on Canadian Lumber Subsidies and the last round of trade tariffs leveled by the US on Canada (which were found to be illegal) were based on the fact that we have universal health care. 99% of Americans do not understand "universal" does not mean free. It means if we work, we pay a premium for our health insurance just the same as you do. Is your BlueCross free? Well, my BlueCross is the same company and I pay just the same as you do. The difference in my premium and yours is the cost of your doctors and lawyers. Our doctors work @ 5 times as many hours, for less pay and our lawyers who depend on medical cases starve to death. If you don't have BlueCross or other health insurance, you will still receive the same treatment as I do. That is what universal means. How that can be mis-interpreted as a lumber subsidy evades rational thought, and the findings of the World Trade Court.
Enough rant.
Kingfish
100 MW
Posted on Reuters today: Senator asks Obama to curb Chinese solar panels
I bet this follows after these previous collapses in the last 30 days...
Related: SpectraWatt Files for Bankruptcy, Second U.S. Solar Company This Month
Related: Solar company that Obama visited will shut down
Related: Solar company Evergreen files for bankruptcy
How do we spell W A R? Is it "flood the market with cheap shite to shut down the domestic supply, then cut the supply off and milk you to death?"
Though in hindsight we have no else to blame but ourselves (our CEOs) in the jealous zeal to find cheap commodities abroad instead instead of fostering domeastic growth.
We can do better! KF
I bet this follows after these previous collapses in the last 30 days...
Related: SpectraWatt Files for Bankruptcy, Second U.S. Solar Company This Month
Related: Solar company that Obama visited will shut down
Related: Solar company Evergreen files for bankruptcy
How do we spell W A R? Is it "flood the market with cheap shite to shut down the domestic supply, then cut the supply off and milk you to death?"
Though in hindsight we have no else to blame but ourselves (our CEOs) in the jealous zeal to find cheap commodities abroad instead instead of fostering domeastic growth.
We can do better! KF
Lessss
1 MW
Looks like the Chinese solar panel grey market is going to take off. Thanks OBAMA!
StudEbiker
100 kW
http://www.iwatchnews.org/2011/09/09/6281/solyndra-investigation-expands-raid-executives-homes-and-files
wineboyrider
1 MW
Real capitalism is based on a "free" market system without subsidies. The idea that a government (yours, mine, or ??) is pure economic fallacy. Taking (taxing) from successful business to pay for Government approved businesses is rewarding failure at it's best. END ALL SUBSIDIES and then Solar panels can be made where they are the most efficient. That way I can afford to buy solar panels and Canadian lumber...
Kingfish
100 MW
It’s about to hit the fan…
From Reuters:
Bring it, KF
From Reuters:
- China slams U.S. over solar complaint
Western solars up the ante against Chinese peers
Analysis: Solar cos that eschewed silicon step up their game
Bring it, KF
Floont
1 kW
Gee, I had no idea I was rich! My 401k retirement fund is fairly diversified after 34 years of working for the same company, and apparently I do own some stock in some solar technology companies.AmpEater said:
Now that I'm rich, I guess I can retire now and start doing evil things, since rich = evil.
oldpiper
1 kW
I was listening to the radio yesterday and the article was about whatever the "high-tech" province is (can't remember, couldn't spell it anyway), that there is a real increase in bankruptcies of small business owners with no end in sight. The reporter talked about the "underground banks," but it didn't seem like these were the Mafia-style 150%-per-week types, just a little more interest than the big banks (which only lend to big customers). It sounded like some of the small businessmen in China didn't quite have capitalism down pat - like they were using the "I lose a nickel on each widget, but I'll make it up in volume" method - $60MM in debt for one, I can't imagine such a situation, myself.
Cameron
Cameron
Kingfish
100 MW
Reuters today: U.S. launches dumping probe into China solar panels
I sense the Trade War is about to begin. If only we could do something about REE while we're at it too.
~KF
I sense the Trade War is about to begin. If only we could do something about REE while we're at it too.
~KF
TPA
10 kW
Evergreen shut down.
Sunelec just won all their panel inventory at auction, they are being liquidated at $0.78/Watt until Monday 11/15/11.
Sunelec just won all their panel inventory at auction, they are being liquidated at $0.78/Watt until Monday 11/15/11.
Hillhater
100 TW
Australia's last Solar panel manufacturer closed down operations this week !
The industry has been destroyed by farcical government policy's which offered huge rebates to stimulate the industry ( but also encouraged huge amounts of Chinese made imports), then cut the rebates, leaving containers full of overstocked panels everywhere, and a manufacturing industry with no customers.
In a country with more Sun and open space than most, no solar industry is a tragedy.
The industry has been destroyed by farcical government policy's which offered huge rebates to stimulate the industry ( but also encouraged huge amounts of Chinese made imports), then cut the rebates, leaving containers full of overstocked panels everywhere, and a manufacturing industry with no customers.
In a country with more Sun and open space than most, no solar industry is a tragedy.
theRealFury
10 kW
Hillhater said:Australia's last Solar panel manufacturer closed down operations this week !
The industry has been destroyed by farcical government policy's which offered huge rebates to stimulate the industry ( but also encouraged huge amounts of Chinese made imports), then cut the rebates, leaving containers full of overstocked panels everywhere, and a manufacturing industry with no customers.
In a country with more Sun and open space than most, no solar industry is a tragedy.
It really is a tragedy, its a real shame but the truth of the matter is that the most important 3-4 years ago before the global recession are now the very same things that are getting the plug pulled on them. Here in the UK the government have just pulled grants for solar and also halved the return on the feed in tarrif for solar energy which will effectively kill the industry in this country over the next 6 months.
It really saddens me to think of the massive step back we globally are willing to take when only a few years ago those same government and corporate entitites were shouting about how we have to act now to save the planet, and how these very same grants and incentives were touted as the answer.
