equal opposite force engine

DaS Energy

DaS Energy

10 mW
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
23
Posted in Open technology free to copy.

Construction mode is same diameter pipe, two flap valves, two hydro turbine and one tennis ball.
Cool gas is heated in short cylinder.

This provides a downward force on the water causing it to exit through a hydro turbine into a holding tank directly above a second hydro turbine .

After the gas has blown down the short pipe it crosses over into the longer cylinder where the gas rises to the surface displacing water on the way.

This water displacement leaves the float blocking the exhaust hole nothing to float on.
The gas no escapes into the holding tank directly above the second turbine forcing water down through it to refill all cylinder.

The timing pipe has lower end in the short cylinder and higher end in the taller cylinder. The timing pipe blows clear of water at cylinder cross over of gas. Its purpose is to prevent a gas pocket forming in the short cylinder as the the water returns.

The gas now in the holding tank has its expansion removed by incoming water exiting the first turbine receiving water from the blow out of the short cylinder.

The force provided is equal in both turbines however only one heat up is required in place of two.
 

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Hello TylerDurden,

Thank you for the Stirling engine site. It was the Stirling hot air engine that first got me going on heated air/gas turbine to be rid of the friction losses and other infeciencies of the piston crankshaft engine.

Stirling was a man of the church as am I and have often have wondered if we were both chosen to to work on alternate engine design.
 
Hi DaS,

The posted diagram has some issues that the stirling article addresses: systems relying on check-valves are usually intermittent force and require synchronized mechanical pressure control.

If you review your diagram and illustrate the turbines as having high and low pressure sides, you may see the issues more easily.

You can have an intermittent cycle like a Sterling or a constant system like a turbine, but I don't think you can have both.
 
I'm happy to see others thinking about these. Here's my own napkin sketch. It would probably need some additional valving, and would likely operate best with some type of Freon? There has been some interesting work (and expired patents) under "fluidyne" meaning one or more liquid pistons being operated by a pressurised fluid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidyne_engine
 

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Hello Td,

Firstly thank you for the have a nice day, most polite and well received.

I note you statement re high low pressure sides of a turbine, however such would only add clutter, and it is usual for high pressure to be at the intake point and low pressure to be at the discharge point of the tubine.

If it be of help the water flow is from right to left.

Despite it having turbine not crankshaft it is still intermintant as the water going up and down the short cylinder has force only on the down stroke.

I am unsure of the issues you talk about we first had the model shown in operation some four years ago and have since moved on to internal combustion.

The three cylinders and the timimg pipe are known as the DaS Valve and shows up on web search.

Should you wish to experiment on your own only the DaS Valve and turbines are solid the rest is flex pipe.

However a word of warning do not use Aluminium as it wont take naked flame, so we found out after building the last model to experiment with higher pressure Co2.

Cheers.
 
Hello spinningmagnets,

Like your work.

Never give up your good work untill you yourself cannot take it any further, personaly I have had eight years of people telling all the reason why it wont work while it sat happily choofing away. There are still many today exercising their right to ignorance, but that is their lot.

Good luck with things.

Cheers
 
I also found these guys to be interesting, They use an innovative liquid feed pump and valving to separate the high-pressure low-pressure sides. Matteran Energy (lots of 'hype', but some useful info if you dig) by Jeff Sterling (with an "E", not the famous Rev. Stirling)

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/
http://www.packratworkshop.com/minipwrwater.htm
http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm

edit: thanks for the kind words, DaS. Below is a pic of a 2-HP solar-ORC. Its large for a meager 2-HP (and even then only when its sunny!), but thats exactly the reason common-tech is so common today. Compact, powerful, convenient...if there is a total breakdown in the current paradigm, we will immediately see a lot of "primitive-tech" being revisited. I can't make a diesel engine from scratch, but...I CAN make a Stirling from mostly near-free junk. it will have a low output, and it will be large and cumbersome (like a minimum-wage fast-food cashier?)

2HP_ORC.jpg
 
Hello spinningmagnets,

Thank you again, most interesting. I have filed in favorites to look at more closely.

Like to learn what fluid they are using. We have been experimenting with Co2 40 bar pressure at zero degrees and 10,000 bar pressure at +100*C.

Most wont touch it as it in part turns into Dry-Ice at pressures over 100 bar, but we are using the Dry-Ice to enact cooling

Hydro turbine 1 litre per second flow at 9 bar pressure produces 720 watts increasing by flow or pressure.

Cheers
 
They do not have nearly the solar energy collection area to get 2hp out of that, even if it was 100% efficient with the energy it collected. Unless I'm missing the giant mirror/lens array parked near it directing energy onto the tanks.


spinningmagnets said:
I also found these guys to be interesting, They use an innovative liquid feed pump and valving to separate the high-pressure low-pressure sides. Matteran Energy (lots of 'hype', but some useful info if you dig) by Jeff Sterling (with an "E", not the famous Rev. Stirling)

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/
http://www.packratworkshop.com/minipwrwater.htm
http://www.redrok.com/engine.htm

edit: thanks for the kind words, DaS. Below is a pic of a 2-HP solar-ORC. Its large for a meager 2-HP (and even then only when its sunny!), but thats exactly the reason common-tech is so common today. Compact, powerful, convenient...if there is a total breakdown in the current paradigm, we will immediately see a lot of "primitive-tech" being revisited. I can't make a diesel engine from scratch, but...I CAN make a Stirling from mostly near-free junk. it will have a low output, and it will be large and cumbersome (like a minimum-wage fast-food cashier?)

Click to expand...
 
Yes the solar collector and freon boiler are not pictured. Hard to get pics from them, they are playing it close to the vest, found that pic through another researcher who saved it before they started looking for investors, and pulled all their publicly posted development work. Who knows how much power it actually makes (if any)? I liked their liquid-pump, but its been years and they don't seem to be doing anything.

ORC and fluidynes have been around for many decades. They work, but certainly a second-page choice. I really like the charm of Stirlings, but they are on the third page, for me...
 
Hello TylerDurden

You are on the ball. If it be of help the cylinders are water pipe all the same diameter, there are two flap valves and the float is a tennis ball. The pipe C is small diameter flex hose which must go on the outside till it peirces the cylinder wall.

It also is the Worlds first self filling Steam boiler, no matter how much heat you fling at it it wont burn out. each time it vents out the exhaust water refills again.

Possibly of interest is some more of our work, this one may be either boiler to refrigerant gas or internal combustion.
 

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Hello TylerDurden,

The insanity that we are is in pusuit of zero Carbon emission, we have it beat in power generation land the automobile.

By providing it as Open Technology free to copy hopefully others will pick it up and give Coal and Oil a run for their money. Comparison a 350 megawatt Steam turbine requires a Steam temperature of +550*C whereas with Co2 the same wattage requires +30*C.

The loss of parts compared to a piston engine gives such efficiencies even the worst of alternate fuels now outpowers Diesel in a piston engine.

Cheers
 
Hello spinningmagnets,

The mob you talked about in your post are -were using Freon gas, which was phased out as it was depleting the ozone layer which may explain their quiteness and shyness now.

Cheers
 
Hello TylerDurden,

Yes a very simple innovation that has been picked up actross the world including China and India.

The very first model past Steam we looked at Ammonia however it is not compatable with most metals and does not have a high pressure ratio to heat.

One of the best is Ether but the public safety outcry beat that one although years ago it was used in water pumping. Thermaldahyde is great except its deadly so the safety concerns again.

Leaving Co2 which is quite wonderful except for its behaviour of converting into Dry-Ice at high pressure which keeps things on the toes but can be managed. A lot of people dont realise Co2 is the refrigerant R744-A.

Cheers
 
This is a very interesting technology. Do you happen to have any photos or a website ?? Reason I asked, is, it is very difficult to get an idea of the size of the unit in that drawing. You state 800KW ?? That's a LOT of power, considering using Tennis balls for valves ??

Could you please explain some sizes, like, dia. of pipes, and sizes of Turbine housings.

I would REALLY appreciate a photo or other drawing for size comparison of something common, like a Bicycle, Car, pickup truck, Large Box truck, Etc. ?? Thanks for bringing this out in the open.

Edit:

Having Internet connection problems, but, I finally got it taken care of, and DID find your website.

Now, to do some studying.
 
Hello Harold in CR, Sorry no photos no nothing aymore other than ashes and warped pipes.Lost the sged in a grass fire.

800kw should not be tried with a tennis ball per se but a tennis ball internaly packed out will take the perssure ?

800kw is the book figure for 1 litre per second at 10,000 bar pressure created by Co2 at a temperature of 100*C and a 80% efficient hydro turbine.

The turbine itself has a one litre capacity (about the size of two milk bottles side bt side) and rotates at 60 Rpm greater volume of flow increase watatage output.

Lower heating of Co2 in the same turbine reduces the wattage output and also lowers material costs as strengths can be lowered.

Formula is 1 litre flow per second at 9 bar pressure produces 720 watts.

Cheers
 
Hope this is not a dumb question, but, what is the desired heat source, to "boil off" the Co2 ?? That may not be the proper term, "boil off", but, to vaporize the Co2, to get expansion-pressure, it needs to be heated, correct ??

I'm in direct discussion with a guy, via Internet, and we are trying to come up with the same general machine as you have.

We would like to produce Electricity and refrigeration OR heat, as required to the specific needs of the end user.

Thanks for the details.
 
Hello Harold in CR,

Boil off refering to Steam, sorry.

Back yard Country build, no website.

Website r744 .com. and reply to packrat, having furtherance asked for.

Also hot pressure Co2 gas venting from by bottom to cool Co2 gas top "if held" at 30*C and 74 bar returns to liquid flooding bottom doing away with need of DaS Compressor.
 
Hello Harold in CR,

No fool like and old fool, packrat is different forum sorry.

Boil off refers to Steam sorry again.

Correct Co2 requires heating to obtain pressure needed.

California University. 80% efficient hydro turbine produces 720 watts per 1 litre flow at 9 bar pressure.

Co2 comparative to Steam electricity generation.

100*C liquid H20 to +550*C Steam -174 bar pressure produces 350 megawatts Toshiba Turbine-Generator.

30*C Co2 liquid to gas Co2 +100*C - 9,926 bar produces 19,852 meagawatts.

Heat to heat basis Steam produces 350 megawatts, Co2 produces 110,000 megawatts.

Should you be able to hold the temperature in top tank at +30* C or below and a pressure of 74 bar, Co2 returns direct to liquid and does away with need of DaS compresser, and bottom pipes flood return.

Never before has keeping the beer cold kept the lights on.

Here to help.
 
Yes, "Boil off" was not the correct term. I was referring to the "Boiling" of the liquid to form gas under pressure.

This is the part I have the most trouble getting into my head. Would a heat collector, using the Sun, or, some other outside source, be needed to heat the liquid, to keep the system operating ??

I'm trying to get something that will operate at night, or, very cloudy days, seeing we have 9 months of rainy season.

My small (75 Litre minute) stream, at MINIMUM flow times, won't produce more than 75 watts per hour. During rainy season, I get up to 150 litres per minute, or, 150 watts per hour, minimum. This is all paperwork figuring.

IF I could pump the water uphill, to a pond I dug, I could run the water back down hill, every 3-4 days, and get much better output, all this for battery charging. 2-3 pumps would increase the output by draining the pond down in 2 days or so.

I am nearly ready to start building the Turbine, but, money being tight, I have to carefully plan everything I need to purchase. Your system might be just the thing I need, IF I can figure out how it works. That's why I asked about the website or photos, to SEE a comparison of size, to a common item. Thanks for the info.
 
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