What a mess and it's going to be expensive to all of us

"Power struggle: Green energy versus a grid that's not ready"

"California has taken some of the earliest steps to address the problems. The California Public Utilities Commission last month ordered large power companies to invest heavily in efforts to develop storage technologies that could bottle up wind and solar power, allowing the energy to be distributed more evenly over time.

Whether those technologies will ever be economically viable on a large scale is hotly debated. The commission mandate nonetheless requires companies to produce enough storage by 2024 to power about 1 million homes.

"Energy storage has the potential to be a game changer for our electric grid," Commissioner Mark Ferron said.

Some utility officials warn, however, that the only guarantee is that ratepayers will be spending a lot. The commission's goals, while laudable, "could cost up to $3 billion with uncertain net benefits for customers," Southern California Edison declared in a filing".

What, it's going to cost me $10.00 just to charge up my bike now. When the grid is up.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-grid-renewables-20131203,0,1019786.story#ixzz2mUnxSHPb

Isn't it lovely to live in a state wth an idiot government that tells itself it gets to just pass a LAW to make it illegal to just NOT create whatever they want? Talk about the reality of it and they start 'I'm not listening, NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAHHHHH!'

I wonder if California will have ANYTHING resembling some sort of storage. Not a problem without it, mankind has survived its' entire existence without. I'm more concerned with the prospect of enough lithium or something even more volatile in one place to top Nagasaki as a fireworks show.

No rush on storage, please, we really can live without.

deronmoped said:

What, it's going to cost me $10.00 just to charge up my bike now. When the grid is up.

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Well, how did you come up with this number?

By your assumption, I'll be paying $1200 a month for electricity alone?

Right now it cost me, let's say, $0.5 to charge bike, and my monthly bill is $60.

it would be better to just charge for electricity on a progressive scale.

rationing with big premiums for exceeding allotment would be ideal but now people can rationalize their electricity use to conserve money.

so instead of huge bills for A/C during the summer and the power demand on the grid causing it to exceed the pacific intertie to california then maybe people will cut back on the A/C during the summer and that could be applicable to the rest of the country.

they can convert their heat to natural gas from electricity and save money and conserve the grid too.

but when you see how many fat people there are out there already you know getting people to moderate their consumption is gonna be hard and there is gonna be a lotta full scale whining along the way.

LSBW said:

deronmoped said:

What, it's going to cost me $10.00 just to charge up my bike now. When the grid is up.

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Well, how did you come up with this number?

By your assumption, I'll be paying $1200 a month for electricity alone?

Right now it cost me, let's say, $0.5 to charge bike, and my monthly bill is $60.

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Just making a point. California rates are already sky high, two to three times what other parts of the US are paying. Not to mention that the general cost of living here is already breaking the bank. With people that are willing to take below liveable wages just to enjoy the good weather and beaches. People have a name for it, it's called the "Sunshine Tax". We don't need astronomically high electrical rates on top of everything else.

dnmun said:

it would be better to just charge for electricity on a progressive scale.

rationing with big premiums for exceeding allotment would be ideal but now people can rationalize their electricity use to conserve money.

so instead of huge bills for A/C during the summer and the power demand on the grid causing it to exceed the pacific intertie to california then maybe people will cut back on the A/C during the summer and that could be applicable to the rest of the country.

they can convert their heat to natural gas from electricity and save money and conserve the grid too.

but when you see how many fat people there are out there already you know getting people to moderate their consumption is gonna be hard and there is gonna be a lotta full scale whining along the way.

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We already have a tiered system for electrical rates here.

I'm confused, why should we be rationing electricity? This country was built on the concept of freedom, was it not. A person was free to go out and make as much money as they wanted to and then spend that money as they wish. We don't ration TV's, cars, houses, motorcycles, bicycles, dolls, toys, E-bikes, batteries, computers... There is no lack of energy on this planet and we will only run out when that Nuclear Reactor in the sky shuts down in five billion years. If you have the money you should be able to buy as much of it as you want.

The sunshine tax is going to include $6 big macs now that minimum wage is going to be $10 an hour under Brown. Not sure what else he's up to but his hired protestors are still at it, insisting that they want $15/hour to work at McDonalds, even though its aready been revealed they don't work there or even live here. The government tells itself they get more tax money if people are paid more then pretend the layoffs and recession they caused are somehow unrelated.

So will there be the same dramatic shortages of electricity that there is of everything else under socialism?

what has socialism to do with it except the reactionary right wingers use it as a crutch for no logic in their argument.

it should be clear by now that we cannot continue to exhaust the natural resources at the rate we have for the last 60 years and it is imperative to cut back the waste and pollution of the atmosphere by burning more and more of the disappearing oil resources we still have left.

it has caused the earth's climate to change, seas to rise and hurricanes and weather patterns to increase in intensity.

since you are not a farmer the drought in texas is of no concern to you, but it is hurting a lot of good people who do farm.

about the energy storage systems, no, it was not needed to create these huge solutions when it is very sensible to conserve energy, and just restrict the use of electricity and if they cannot do it by rationing it then it has to rationed by price. that is the market way associated with capitalism.

Well thanks dnmun for your perspective, which I share. Born & raised in Texas and having once owned and operated a 100 acre farm there, north of Austin, I'm highly sympathetic to the desertification of the state and their increasing water problems. It is often said that "peak water" is the issue of our times and the one most likely to cause resource wars, as is being played out in many regions around the world. So yea, I'd love to see the great energy transition in full swing, before Texas becomes just like Syria. Yea, as many good commentators have noted, the civil war in Syria is really about climate change, desertification of the mid-east, water starvation and in-fighting.

But the path that Massachusetts is on is a good model for any state, including solving the issues of energy storage. We set ourselves, in the context of electricity restructuring, to highly distributed. And their are a set of smart energy task force people in play who think about the long term vision and how to get there. Indeed, A123, an MIT spin-off doing lithium battery R&D work, has the bigger than automative battery division, its utility scale grid storage division, that is and always has been profitable. Since National Grid, NStar, WMECO and other utiliities serving the Commonwealth are already on the hook in the changing dynamics of the marketplace, we're already well along on that path. With Cape Wind breaking sea bed for for its large off-shore wind farm, and the US Bureau of Ocean Energy Management already in the process of leasing the entire eastern sea bed for off-shore wind, we'll being seeing the buildout over the next decade of more than a trillion watts of off-shore wind alone, on top of a vigorous solar, tidal, geothermal and other renewable energy resources.

In fact, our Global Warming Solutions Act call for 80% renewable by 2050, so our fate is already sealed. Intermittancy is the name of the game, of tying it all together with a smart grid, energy storage and so forth, so we can retire fossil fules in the mix. Indeed our energy restructuring act, which has been periodically amended to force players to the table to work out all the issues, calls for distributors, generators AND storers, the third leg of the stool. So its possible to go into the business of just energy storage - it does not need to be the "utility" which is now just a distribution service.

I personnally still favor highly distributed, so solar on the roof with enough batteries to out last the sunshine, and the batteries doing double duty as electric vehicle, eliminating the necessity of the grid, but still grid-tied, for the all the monetary incentives put on the table here, including SREC's. We'll get there, and soon, as our state is currently one of the leaders. In fact, my home town was choosen by National Grid for early buildout of the enhanced smart grid. Exciting times here. I say bah hum bug to all the nay-sayers, as we're proving it can be done.

I am in the heart of coal country, at least in terms of active electrical sources. Fine, natural gas, good for the mix, weening from these things... fine, as long as it is not too burdensome cost wise. It is and it isn't. Sure, develop what is cheapest first, but some of these storage solutions will add something we all could use a bit more of...stability. Especially, the decentralized storage. We had some blackouts a couple of years back, that lasted more than a week (in the middle of winter). Felt a bit like caveman life. These type of events are more frequent. They are. The weather is not the same as it was when I was growing up. It isn't. There is some serious cost involved anytime there is disaster. Serious cost. We need to stop calling all of this "green energy" stuff a battle to slow climate change. We need to call it what it really is disaster preparedness, and factor in the cost advantages of being prepared. This massive upcoming disaster is the great equalizer. The nations which prepare the most intelligently will have clear advantages. Not all solutions are worthy, but advance them and let them rise or fall. Hydrocarbons are doing it, rising on the fracking tide. But "green energy" is supposed to fight with hands tied behind its back? Things which pay for themselves after ten years and provide profit for potentially an additional twenty, require some creative arguments to justify why they should not be pursued. We are at the final basest level of argument, brainwashing. The braonwashed are eventually exposed

That was confusing.

dnmun said:

what has socialism to do with it except the reactionary right wingers use it as a crutch for no logic in their argument.

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Well, there's the fact that clear thinking centrists like myself cite all the problems with it, while the RIGHT WING socialists, (You forget that Socialism is RIGHT WING) lie about that fact.

since you are not a farmer the drought in texas is of no concern to you, but it is hurting a lot of good people who do farm.

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So you're saying my agricultural land interests in Texas don't count? How odd of you to put your foot in your mouth in that particular way. How ironic. Always you speak in a daze, doing your best to fling insults and distort but never really offering insight.

What restricts the usage of ANYTHING is the inability to provide it, which has always been the proven result in Socialism. I remember the Russians celebrating the LIBERALIZATION of their economy, taunting the remaining right wingers of the Communist party as they were at last able to get. . .THINGS! Of course the American right wingers rankled at the ongoing acknowledgement that the Communists were fellow right wingers.

Yet even as they witnessed the failure around the world, not just in the Soviet Union, American Socialists continue to insist it will somehow be different here if they just demand it and say they deserve it. Today there was this union organized "Strike" of fast food and restaurant workers and this big demonstration they were supposedly at; the journalists kept asking to actually SEE the striking food workers, the spokespeople for the unions kept promising to deliver them. . . .

. . . .Just like they'll keep promising to deliver the electricity if they get put in charge. And for the moment they ARE in charge in California.

Why care how they want to handle utility size projects. Any necessity that you pay for via a monthly bill is a means of control by those whose interest is only in lining their pockets with your money. Micro generation is the way to stay clear of the "mess" while leaving the expense to the sheep. Why buy electricity produced by the sun or wind if you can produce it yourself economically now? Once you have electric vehicles it makes even more sense, because those batteries can be part of your storage.

I can think of lots of reasons why. What I believe, however, is the "all of the above" approach, inclusive of off-the-girders such as yourself. But it depends on where you are and the least-expensive approach. Here in Massachusetts, the leader of the pack in green energy production, where we've got the best restructured market available, its possible for me to choose really good generation sources. So the one I use, Mass Energy Consumer Alliance, is a non-profit leader allowing me to buy my electricity from all local wind (among other plans). The least expensive clean and renewable energy production for the Northeast region is large-scale wind. No way I'm going to get that without being on the grid using a generation source like I do. And with an expanding portfolio of projects coming online, including Cape Wind, the prices will continue to drop. If I live elsewhere, for instance in sunny Arizona, I'd be looking for a large-scale solar project to connect to. But also with solar PV on my roof. Again, the cost factor is vastly improved with scale. As well as redundancy, among other factors.

Nice, so your buying wind energy, have you no mercy!

"Kelly Fuller, with the American Bird Conservancy, said, “In 2009, an expert at the Fish and Wildlife Service estimated 440,000 birds were being killed by wind turbines a year. That was before we had more growth of the industry.”

"West Virginia, in the eastern U.S., is a migratory corridor for birds. It's also an important habitat for bats -- millions of which have been dying from White Nose Syndrome. The illness has brought some species to the brink of extinction".

http://www.voanews.com/content/wind-turbines-take-steep-toll-on-birds-and-bats/1524387.html

deronmoped said:

Nice, so your buying wind energy, have you no mercy!

"Kelly Fuller, with the American Bird Conservancy, said, “In 2009, an expert at the Fish and Wildlife Service estimated 440,000 birds were being killed by wind turbines a year. That was before we had more growth of the industry.”

"West Virginia, in the eastern U.S., is a migratory corridor for birds. It's also an important habitat for bats -- millions of which have been dying from White Nose Syndrome. The illness has brought some species to the brink of extinction".

http://www.voanews.com/content/wind-turbines-take-steep-toll-on-birds-and-bats/1524387.html

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Sorry, but Massachusetts also has some the strictest environmental laws & rules in place also. So Cape Wind for instance has been the most thoroughly reviewed energy project in American history. And lots of parties came to the table. For instance, Mass Audubon gave the project a clean bill of health. You telling me that they're wrong? I don't think so. Its a ruse by the nay sayers.

So the windmills have no impact, whats so ever, on nature. And your preaching the party line. "If we say it's Green, then it's Green".

The solar installs in California by Nevada had them out moving turtles at $50,000.00 each. Several hundred had to be relocated to keep them from being impacted. The windmills get a pass because they kill only plentiful birds and bats.

"Wind turbines kill more than 573,000 birds each year in the United States, according to The Associated Press, including federally protected species like bald eagles and golden eagles. [In Photos: Birds of Prey]

Even bats are falling victim to wind-turbine blades: The Pennsylvania Game Commission estimates that more than 10,000 bats are killed in the state each year by wind turbines, the Wall Street Journal reports".

Your just marching in lockstep with the movement, no mind of your own, can't even admit that Green energy is not all it's cracked up to be.

They should buy up all Hobbyking lipo (30000000s100000p) and bulk charge it all.

If I find out that my tortoise is worth $50,000 he's for sale! :lol:

Wind turbines are not bird-chop-o-matics. Some stats for that 20 year old wind farm in California with 4000 turbines were applied out of context. Modern turbines are designed quite differently, resulting in fewer bird deaths. Think of the number of birds killed by cars or even window panes. Then multiply that by 10 or 100 to get to the number killed by cats.

Come on, you guys are smarter than this.

In America, the real threat to birds is the loss of habitat on migratory routes. While still mostly a mystery, birds have an innate ability to find their path from hatching, through the wilds on ancient pathways.
[youtube]T4xt2g_Ufm0[/youtube]
If habitat is lost along the way, so goes their food source and its not just a few birds, but a whole species is gone. The culprit? The rapid development alowed by the petroleum economy and its mega-machines tearing through nature. Along with the suburban neighborhood, made possible by the automobile. If we were to have true mercy for the birds, and we should, we'd stop all that and get on with the great energy transition. Most large-scale wind farms leave habitat in place and are also positioned with considerable sensitivity to bird migratory paths. But the nay-sayers will always have some stupid arguement that justifies their continued lifestyle and the domination of Nature by humans.

The southward bird migration over North America, from Part 2 of the series (Great TV Shows!)
[youtube]E1_oghBj2eE[/youtube]

One solution at least on a physical chemistry standpoint is fuel cell coupled solar reformation. Use the energy of the sun to change methane to hydrogen, this ie called reformation. CO2 is still a byproduct but the energy available is almost half again that of using the natural gas in any other way. Interim storage not by battery, but by storage of H2. Fuel cells with integrel reformation is what Siemens installed at a local conservatory. Use the energy of the sun to power the endothermic reaction ( CH4 + 2H2O--4 H2+ CO2)instead of the natural gas itself!

But what the heck do I know? Just some hillbilly livin up the holler in Appalachia.

unklegrumpknee said:

One solution at least on a physical chemistry standpoint is fuel cell coupled solar reformation. Use the energy of the sun to change methane to hydrogen, this ie called reformation. CO2 is still a byproduct but the energy available is almost half again that of using the natural gas in any other way. Interim storage not by battery, but by storage of H2. Fuel cells with integrel reformation is what Siemens installed at a local conservatory. Use the energy of the sun to power the endothermic reaction ( CH4 + 2H2O--4 H2+ CO2)instead of the natural gas itself!

But what the heck do I know? Just some hillbilly livin up the holler in Appalachia.

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Sounds expensive, and any time the name Siemens is used the real world price seems to triple. Has anyone even come up with a cheap tank solution for H2. I thought the darn molecules were so small that they leaked thru typical tank materials.

yes, hydrogen diffuses through steel. that tank is heavy because the forging is so thick. it is just so much simpler to store CNG, and safer. but the only people who think CNG are trash truck and bus fleets. there are a buncha hondas out there too. Utah had really cheaper CNG because of a legal settlement between a gas producer and the state which got CNG cheap all along the I15 corridor. 60 cents GGE. 40mpg in the honda. 1.5 cents/mile.

gas is still that cheap now at $4.21 essentially so it is hardest for EV to compete with CNG on a true commodity cost basis. without the local gas company markups. also the country is crisscrossed with high pressure natural gas lines which could be used to directly fill the tank of these CNG vehicles without using a compressor. just all new territory when liquid fuels have 100 years of tradition.

we really could get by a lot easier than people think on a lot less and there might still be enuff left for your grandchildren.

dnmun said:

we really could get by a lot easier than people think on a lot less and there might still be enuff left for your grandchildren.

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What? Conserve? When our economy is dependent on profligate expenditure? And you speak about "your" grandchildren as if the 3rd, 4th through 7th generations mattered. Our now common perspective is that only I matter, and right now, like immediately. What with everyone yanking on my chain to buy, buy, buy and with Amazon to fulfil my every desire, why would I possibly give a frellingfrack about those presumed next generations, never mind another species? Tis the season after all. Merry Christmas, or Xmas or xxxmas or whatever.