Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Solar, wind, hydro and other non-fossil sources of electricity.

Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Lurkin » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:53 am

Proposing the world's largest battery...

In a country which is reliant heavily on fossil fuels for energy and mining for economic purposes...

Hats off to Elon Musk.... 8)

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/ ... x6mhy.html
Lurkin
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:31 pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:21 pm

And some smaller ones in Sydney..
Australia is feeling the need to stabilize its electric grid through energy storage and Tesla is among several companies trying to present their battery packs as ideal solutions.

Tesla has won the latest contract with Transgrid, the company operating the NSW transmission grid, in order to deploy Powerpack stations at several sites across New South Wales.

They announced this week that the first installation will be a relatively small 250kW/500KWh Powerpack station at the City of Sydney’s Alexandra Canal Works depot. It should be completed in the coming months.

AFR reports:
“The Powerpack battery will save the City of Sydney on its energy bills and allow it to add more solar panels to the Alexandra Canal Works depot, helping to manage the energy flow by storing surplus power generated in daylight hours for lighting, airconditioning, plant and equipment use at night.”

As part of a contract awarded to Tesla, the projects will follow several more across Transgrid’s network in order to create energy storage capacity for demand response.

https://electrek.co/2017/06/17/tesla-po ... tric-grid/
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:43 pm

Musk cuts battery cost by half !!
....Mr Musk tweeted back, vowing to build it within 100 days, "or it is free".

.....But it was his subsequent offer to almost halve his price, in response to Mr Cannon-Brookes' request for "mates rates", that has captured the imaginations and wallets of high-net worth individuals, superannuation funds and other investors, who have showered Mr Cannon-Brookes with offers of funding.

"Elon almost halved ... the price of what's available at a grid-scale storage capacity, which was a very bold offer and blew up a lot of people's models as to what was possible in this space," Mr Cannon-Brookes told RN Breakfast.

"When the pricing halved, the economics become vastly different over a 20-year term of an asset like this in infrastructure.

at a guess then, since the last reported cost of utility scale Power bank installation was approx US$350,000 /MWh,
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-po ... per-pack-3
....In September, two 210 kWh battery packs cost $145,100 all in, including the cost of an inverter and installation.

..that would put the 129MWh SA installation cost at approx US$17.5 million ..Bargain ! :shock: ..(Au$23 m)
by my calcs that puts the cost at about US175 per kWh .

All of which makes some of the other projects in the same state very interesting from a cost viewpoint..
.. ie :-- a 400MWh battery ( :shock: ) from Lyon Group ...Au$200-300 million !! :shock: :lol:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-30/n ... nd/8400952
?? who is screwing who ??

EDIT:
......i must stop posting when tired !!...got my Au$ mixed up with my US$ ! :oops:
The calc for 129mWh system should read............ usd$23m ( Au$29m )
...but if Musk says he will share half the cost,..its all way wrong anyway. :lol:
Last edited by Hillhater on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:57 am

....it is intended to sustain 100 megawatts of power and store 129 megawatt hours, which could power about 30,000 homes according to Tesla. That was more than three times as powerful as the world's next-largest such battery, Mr Musk said on Friday........

?? ..I do not understand why Musk and others, keep saying this..".3 times more powerful than the next biggest"... When Tesla have just installed a 80 MWh battery in California...??
http://solarlove.org/tesla-completes-wo ... nths-time/
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby TheBeastie » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:46 am

Hillhater wrote:
....it is intended to sustain 100 megawatts of power and store 129 megawatt hours, which could power about 30,000 homes according to Tesla. That was more than three times as powerful as the world's next-largest such battery, Mr Musk said on Friday........

?? ..I do not understand why Musk and others, keep saying this..".3 times more powerful than the next biggest"... When Tesla have just installed a 80 MWh battery in California...??
http://solarlove.org/tesla-completes-wo ... nths-time/

Interesting point.
In the SA offical Tesla battery press conference Elon says that that 80MWh in California claim is an exaggeration. When I watched it live on TV i could have sworn he said some other interesting things but can't find it on any of the videos online, I stored the biggest one I could find in the URL below.
Stretching out the way these specifications are supposed to be used it could be that the 130MWh SA battery is a technical understatement as its claimed to be able to give out 100MW of power thus deliberately engineered for more output in a shorter amount of time. Thus if the battery pack only had to provide 50MW of power then it could claim that the battery pack is technically 260MWh? Or something of that nature, so it could be the idea behind calling it a 130MWh is equally connected with its expected high amount of cycles so it can last 10 years, in theory.
As we all know overly high discharge means considerably less total cycle lifetime.
This chart just can't be posted enough.
Image

I think it might really be like a lot of things that Elon is just stretching the truth to help sell his products. Just like how Elon famously claimed that you can cover a nuclear power-station and its surrounding area with solar panels its performance in general energy output is the same amount of total energy as nuclear, most folks take those statements in quite literal terms so it should be inspected.
I debunked Elon's claim in this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=54903&hilit=fukushima&start=100#p1208363

Hillhater wrote:
at a guess then, since the last reported cost of utility scale Power bank installation was approx US$350,000 /MWh,
http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-po ... per-pack-3
....In September, two 210 kWh battery packs cost $145,100 all in, including the cost of an inverter and installation.

..that would put the 129MWh SA installation cost at approx US$17.5 million ..Bargain ! :shock: ..(Au$23 m)
by my calcs that puts the cost at about US175 per kWh .

All of which makes some of the other projects in the same state very interesting from a cost viewpoint..
.. ie :-- a 400MWh battery ( :shock: ) from Lyon Group ...Au$200-300 million !! :shock: :lol:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-30/n ... nd/8400952
?? who is screwing who ??

Companies like Zen Energy are just in it for a quicker buck and don't really care about the environment any more than BHP or Chevron do.
These guys like the head of Zen Energy sit in half way in the government and professor heads of universities pushing climate change fear and government lobbying to enrich them selves by having baloney ripoff products to sell via groups like GetUP who also get they cut via donations and favors from these companies.
http://www.rossgarnaut.com.au/zen-energy/
https://blogs.unimelb.edu.au/rossgarnau ... yrkvfa.pdf
If had folks in government and Professor heads of major universities had huge personal investments in fossil fuels/uranium they would instantly be dismissed as self-interested jokes, but it's ok if there up to their eyeballs invested in renewable energy companies, and are free to use ABC news and Getup etc to pound their will and thoughts about the world into the Australian public every day.

Looks like Elon nicely snaked them out of their rip off products this time, so good on Elon for that one. I can't help but see Elon's decision to give away this large battery so cheaply was because of the expected free press marketing dividends.
Elon Musks SA battery "investment" should for at least the next 5 years push any news site that puts out articles on how amazing green energy is that the state of South Australia that is 4 times larger than the whole of the UK is now at 50% pure renewables and is healthy and stable all by its self blah blah blah...
He openly says this in the SA Tesla powerpack press meeting that its to demonstrate to the world what Tesla powerpacks can do https://youtu.be/aTXwXlRDGVI?t=12m27s
"Opportunity to make a significant statement to the world about renewable energy"

I think he would have been secretly angry that it came out and even more so if it became common knowledge that at pretty much the exact same time South Australia hit the record for having the most expensive electricity prices in the world. Fortunately for Tesla mainstream media is turned to telling people what they want to hear.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-28/s ... ld/8658434
https://youtu.be/aTXwXlRDGVI?t=7m11s
Last edited by TheBeastie on Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:49 am, edited 6 times in total. View post history.
Speed Kills Range, 10mph = 46 miles range, 20mph = 20 miles, 30mph = 8 miles range http://goo.gl/1JNL53
Over Charging Kills ur battery bit.ly/1hzWKl4
Beware of dodgy 18650 cells! youtu.be/eOshOXcSkDA
Consider PAS as your only throttle http://goo.gl/m17J9j
CO2 is core to Photosynthesis https://youtu.be/1T4WKtVgnI8
Check out the Bill Gates nuclear reactor https://goo.gl/Rtky9q
10 Square Miles of solar panels = 0.12GW average power! https://goo.gl/Ub1S39
User avatar
TheBeastie
1 MW
1 MW
 
Posts: 1605
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2012 12:31 am
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Lurkin » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:32 pm

The question in the back of my mind revolves around capacity loss and how long the proposed battery will have the touted capacity/resulting benefit. I don't recall reading what chemistry or really any further detail about it. Despite the cynicism it still makes are more pleasant change than reading continual political debates about coal.
Lurkin
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:31 pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:36 pm

....it has slightly more storage than the next biggest lithium battery, built by AES this year in southern California.
........
But Tesla's 100 MW output would be more than three times larger than the AES battery and five times larger than anything Tesla has built previously.....
The largest battery storage system that Tesla has built to date sits on a 0.6-hectare site at Mira Loma in southern California.
American electricity company Southern California Edison was also involved. It has a storage capacity of 20 MW, or 80 MWh, and is said to be capable of powering 15,000 homes..

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-07/w ... rk/8688992
It seems "Power Output". is the main point of difference, with the SA installation able to output at much higher MW levels than other similar installations, which in turn would imply a higher duty inverter/interface set up than has been used before.

The sevice life of the batteries has been stated by Tesla at 15 years. (Same source)
......
Tesla says the lithium ion batteries in the Jamestown array will have a life of about 15 years, depending on their usage and how aggressively they are recharged.
The company says the battery components are replaceable and the circuitry should last 20 to 30 years.

BUT .. Teslas warranty for powerwall 2. (a smaller version of the utility Powerpack2). States a warranted 70% capacity retention after 10 years, whilst other sources quote 80% retention after 5000 cycles for the Powerpack.
.....so performance and capacity after 15 years is questionable ! ( especially with the 2 full...high powerlevel.... discharge cycles per day proposed for this SA installation)
Which , in itself highlights the short term/trial nature of these systems.
They are not a long term solution....in fact simple number churning suggests those gas fueled generators are more cost effective !
Last edited by Hillhater on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Lurkin » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:19 pm

what cells are they using for it?
Lurkin
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:31 pm
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUS

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:39 am

Reported to be their 21700 cells from the Gfactory,..but unconfirmed.
https://electrek.co/2016/10/07/tesla-po ... gafactory/
Last edited by Hillhater on Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:34 pm

An interesting article explaining the operating logic for this installation.
Some interesting insight as to how grid scale battery installations function.
But they do seem to have some screwy ideas as to its cost !
http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-wh ... -do-42387/
Of the 100MW/129MWh in this array, around 70MW of capacity is contracted to the South Australian government to provide grid stability and system security. It will likely mostly provide frequency and ancillary services (FCAS) when needed (such as a major system fault, generator trip or transmission failure).

This part of the battery is designed to last 10 minutes, which sounds short but is long enough to keep the grid stable while slower machines such as gas generators can respond.

The other 30MW of capacity will have three hours storage, and will be used as load shifting by Neoen for the Hornsdale wind farm, where it will be located.

Please note: The 30MW and 70MW ratings mean exactly that – it is the capacity at the connection point.
?


And this from one of the comments in reply.....
..from "neroden"
Government part contracted: 70 MW * 1/6 hour = 11.7 Mwh storage (after 1/6 hour they don't need to respond to government, who are supposed to have spun up the gas plants or whatever). Interestingly they need to be able to either produce 11.7 MWh on demand, *or* absorb 11.7 MWh on demand.
Neoen part contracted: 30 MW * 3 hour = 90 Mwh storage (after this they are not required to provide extra capacity and Neoen can be forced to curtail wind, or not allowed to discharge batteries further) Here, Neoen can push in up to 90 MWh before it has to stop, and can withdraw down to zero -- like a bank account with a maximum size.
So think of it as follows:
2.6 Mwh (2%) base anti-bricking protection, always full
11.7 Mwh "always full" until the government needs emergency power
90 Mwh for Neoen to fill and empty as it likes
11.7 Mwh "always empty" until the government needs to absorb excess power
12.9 Mwh (10%) anti-overcharging protection at the top, always empty
This makes sense. Almost all the time they'll be in the middle of the charging range of the battery. They'll only be on the outer edges when the Neoen part is empty and the government requires a discharge for grid stabilization, or when the Neoen part is full and the government requires a charge for grid stabilization. Even then they'll be close enough to the middle of the range to charge/discharge at full speed, and to maintain long battery lifetime.

"C rate" of charge/discharge when using the goverment part, since the whole system can discharge in parallel: 0.54. Which is EASY, since it's slower than a Tesla Model S discharges its batteries when you hit the accelerator. This should always be possible.

I see how clever the design is here. (If my educated guesses are correct). There are a whole bunch of parallel batteries. So each battery is allocated this way.

It would have been much harder to make this cost effective with ONLY the government contract; due to C-rates, it would have required a lot of batteries which were basicaly sitting idle a lot. it is cost-effective because it has BOTH the government contract and the Neoen contract.

In order to supply the required MW power rate for the government, given the C-rate for the batteries, they had to put in a lot of batteries -- which meant a lot more MWH of capacity than is actually needed for the government. So the excess MWH are sold to Neoen who doesn't need a high power rate but can profit from capacity.

Very clever. I don't think I would have figured this out myself. It's a slick design.


EDIT:..
I find it confusing when these "Utility" scale battery systems start having their "Capacity" quoted in MW , rather than MWh. as normal for the rest of the battery world. !:x
I wonder if this is deliberate on their part ( even Musk and other "experts" have done this), or is it just sloppy misunderstanding from people used to dealing with generated supply systems ? ..and copied by journalists.
Capacity, MWh, is an energy (storage) measure, and MW is a measure of power.
Last edited by Hillhater on Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby jonescg » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:23 pm

MW and MWh are used a lot, and sometimes used properly.

I guess the MW number is most important because that's the number which must be achieved or nothing turns on. Demand from a generator might be 500 MW, so the facility must be able to provide 500 MW for any amount of time. Since a battery would only ever be needed for a maximum of 12 hours, it's peak capability is an important number, with capacity (MWh) being secondary, depending on the duration of demand.

That is to say, it's no good having a 200 MWh battery, but only having inverters capable of pushing power out at 30 MW.
User avatar
jonescg
1 GW
1 GW
 
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:37 pm

jonescg wrote:........ Since a battery would only ever be needed for a maximum of 12 hours, it's peak capability is an important number, with capacity (MWh) being secondary, depending on the duration of demand.
....

? Max 12 hrs ? ..If you are using batteries as back up for solar, you never know how long you may have to depend on them.
I would have thought 12 hours would be the MINIMUM likely requirement, with 24, 48 , or more possible depending on the weather. !!
A modest domestic household probably uses 10-15 kWh per day , with peaks early morning and evening after most solar generation is finished, So the bulk of that demand may well be from the battery, which will need capacity sized to suit...IE , 10+ kWh as a minimum. A pack that size should have no problem dealing with most domestic load demands.
So yes peak demand is important but Capacity is a key deciding factor for solar backup .
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby jonescg » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:18 pm

Hillhater wrote:
jonescg wrote:........ Since a battery would only ever be needed for a maximum of 12 hours, it's peak capability is an important number, with capacity (MWh) being secondary, depending on the duration of demand.
....

? Max 12 hrs ? ..If you are using batteries as back up for solar, you never know how long you may have to depend on them.


In the context of a grid battery, 12 hours is probably generous. But it's likely that 12 hours at an arbitrary power factor (say, 33% of the nameplate power) might become a benchmark. Even a cloudy day will generate something, but certainly not enough to charge it in a day.
User avatar
jonescg
1 GW
1 GW
 
Posts: 3310
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Tesla's World's biggest battery in South Australia!

Postby Hillhater » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:20 pm

Im sure there are many ways to look at this, but those "with skin in the game" seem to have taken a different approach ..
Tesla in Kauai, Hawai , went with a 52MWh battery to back up the 13MWh solar farm...
https://techcrunch.com/2017/03/10/tesla ... ys-future/
....The whole facility generates 13 megawatts of energy, which adds up to around 19,438 MWh of electricity per year, and can store up to 52 megawatt hours of power. It does this with a cost to Kauai of 13.9 cents per kilowatt-hour, locked at that price for the duration of a 20-year contract. That’s under half the price the island currently pays for power generated from burning diesel fuel, which is its prevailing source of energy. The new solar storage facility can build up enough energy to power 4,500 Kauai homes through the night, .....

“In this way we can have very robust, reliable solar electricity delivered back to the customer almost 24 hours a day,” Straubel explained in an interview. “This is a very different type of project. Usually you have solar panels directly coupled into the grid, or into your house, and they feed their electricity in whenever the sun is out and whenever a cloud comes over they stop.”
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca
Hillhater
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 8212
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:33 pm
Location: Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !


Return to Alternative Energy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest