This section has the wrong name

Solar, wind, hydro and other non-fossil sources of electricity.
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This section has the wrong name

Post by the e wind » Jul 03 2018 1:43pm

Hi, a friendly question here.

Why do we still say 'alternative energy' when discussing renewable sources of electricity? Since electricity derived from solar, wind, hydro, a gasifier, etc. is identical to grid power in most applications, why do we stick with the term 'alternative,' as if solar power is only for dirty hippies listening to Pete Seeger in the forest? I need not remind anyone on this forum that Texas is going wind crazy, California has recently mandated residential solar, while in certain other parts of the world (Iceland, Germany, etc.) renewables actually constitute the majority of electrical energy consumed by the country!

I think it's time some of us internet losers (forward thinking peoples) start using other terms such as 'renewable energy,' or 'responsible energy production,' or something like that. I've been bringing this up in meetings, project groups, non-profits, etc., but nobody really seems to care to get the terminology correct. I'm tired of being in the 'alt' energy industry; I want people to look at renewables as THE 'energy' industry, as opposed to 'the other' energy industry. As if solar smells bad or something.

What you think; does anyone care to get the terminology right? Or do we sit at our computers and wait for Trump to randomly start giving love to renewables? I'm not banking on that one...
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by LockH » Jul 03 2018 3:54pm

Hi e wind... OK, I'll bite... Perhaps "alternative" referred to "non-conventional", where for about a century "conventional" maybe meant energy derived from burning dead stuff ("fossils")... or other sometimes too-tricky nuclear power... and there is a renewed interest in going "back"... or "forward" to using solar energy to power solar cells, wind and hydro generators. Maybe more "low teck" stuff watt doesn't poison so much. ;) Just last year a UK professor/researcher noted "“Poor air quality in our cities has been estimated to lead to over 40,000 premature deaths in the UK each year. The main health effects that are known to arise from poor air quality are heart disease and poor lung function. However, infant development, cognitive function and other diseases and conditions have also been linked to air pollution, though these links are not yet well proven.” :cry: EVer heard the expression "Where there is smoke, there is fire"? :lol:

It's amusing to see parts of this world taking this situation more seriously than others. The new President of Costa Rica moving to soon ban entirely the use of the infernal exploding engine...

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by billvon » Jul 03 2018 10:48pm

the e wind wrote:
Jul 03 2018 1:43pm
Why do we still say 'alternative energy' when discussing renewable sources of electricity? Since electricity derived from solar, wind, hydro, a gasifier, etc. is identical to grid power in most applications, why do we stick with the term 'alternative,' as if solar power is only for dirty hippies listening to Pete Seeger in the forest?
I think because for a while it was. There was almost no solar, wind, geothermal etc and no one was really talking about large hydro as "alternative" although it's certainly renewable. You're right; a better term for it is renewable, and I've been seeing that more and more often.
What you think; does anyone care to get the terminology right? Or do we sit at our computers and wait for Trump to randomly start giving love to renewables? I'm not banking on that one...
You never know. Putin might call him up one night and tell him to give some love. (Or a democrat might oppose it, and Trump would then support it just as a matter of course.)
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by amberwolf » Jul 03 2018 11:09pm

This is also the section where the "overunity" :roll: stuff goes, so if you change what the section is for, you'll need to make a new one for that stuff, then find it all and move it.

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 03 2018 11:40pm

the e wind wrote:
Jul 03 2018 1:43pm
Hi, a friendly question here.

Why do we still say 'alternative energy' when discussing renewable sources of electricity? Since electricity derived from solar, wind, hydro, a gasifier, etc. is identical to grid power in most applications, why do we stick with the term 'alternative,' ......

What you think; does anyone care to get the terminology right? Or do we sit at our computers and wait for Trump to randomly start giving love to renewables? I'm not banking on that one...
Rm
Hi ewind,..a friendly reply here ,..even tho' i suspect you are just stirring a debate ! :wink:
You are correct.." Alternative". is definitely the wrong terminology,.. for wind and solar at least.
They have been tagged with that name simply because they seemed to represent an alternative to the conventironal Coal, Gas, Hydro, etc , electricity grid generation sources.
But the term is incorrect, because they are not realistic main stream alternatives to current electricity grid generation systems, and are not even viable at all in many parts of the world !
Some have adopted the factually correct term "Renewable" energy sources to try to emphasise the apparently endless source of energy they utilise...though that name has a double meaning, in that wind and solar do require much more frequent "renewal" of the conversion equipment, than many had believed.
But, the most accurate description of wind and solar electricity generation should be "Intermittent" , "Unreliable", or "unpredictable" due to the non continuous and random output they provide.
Maybe a polite reference for them would be to simply refer to them as " Trivial" generation sources due to the very low % of intermittent power they provide on a world scale.!

But , the truth is , you have missunderstood the title of this "section" .
It is not necessarily refering to alternative grid supply systems, but simply alternatives to Fossil Fuel energy supplies for any purpose , IE, Hydrogen fueled vehicles, wood fired furnaces, solar warer heaters, off grid solar, etc etc.
So no ,..the section is correctly named. :wink:
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by the e wind » Jul 05 2018 5:27pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 03 2018 11:40pm
they are not realistic main stream alternatives to current electricity grid generation systems, and are not even viable at all in many parts of the world !
Prove it - references please.
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by the e wind » Jul 05 2018 5:30pm

And yes, I am instigating for it's own sake.
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 05 2018 7:35pm

The vast majority of electricity that is generated globally is overwhelmingly from burning coal, and a little methane.

When it comes to transportation, diesel and gasoline log many more miles than EVs. The tide is slowly changing, but you'll have to quote some exact numbers to gain support for a name change.

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 05 2018 7:45pm

the e wind wrote:
Jul 05 2018 5:27pm
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 03 2018 11:40pm
they are not realistic main stream alternatives to current electricity grid generation systems, and are not even viable at all in many parts of the world !
Prove it - references please.
You do not need references, you just need common sense.
I assume you realise Solar doesnt work at night ? And that there is not enough storage capacity to support a grid supply over night.
I also assume you realise that wind farms only work when the wind blows hard enough (and not too hard !)
Again same comment regarding storage !
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by billvon » Jul 05 2018 9:31pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 05 2018 7:45pm
the e wind wrote:
Jul 05 2018 5:27pm
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 03 2018 11:40pm
they are not realistic main stream alternatives to current electricity grid generation systems, and are not even viable at all in many parts of the world !
Prove it - references please.
You do not need references, you just need common sense. . . .
You could have just said "no, I can't" and saved yourself all that equivocation.
--bill von

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 05 2018 11:23pm

Actually, ..from me it would have been ..No, i Wont !...
Every lazy arse wants someone else to show them the proof rather than check for them selves.
The info is available for those that actually want to know
It doesnt worry me that he (and you) wont believe what i say, ( that it your problem )... I have done the footwork and am very comfortable in my shoes.
Its particularly irritating when the subjectand answer is so obvious..
Or are you now going to explain how wind and solar can substitute for curent thermal generation sources on a state/national grid system ?
PS Bill, did you ever figure out where you are getting your power from on those still nights ? :roll:
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by billvon » Jul 05 2018 11:41pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 05 2018 11:23pm
Actually, ..from me it would have been ..No, i Wont !...
OK. So you have no proof and you won't try to find any. But you just _believe._ Sounds more like your religion than a discussion over energy.
Its particularly irritating when the subjectand answer is so obvious.
Yep. Just like everyone knew that nuclear power would be too cheap to meter, and solar would never amount to more than a sub-1% fraction of our power. It was SO OBVIOUS!
PS Bill, did you ever figure out where you are getting your power from on those still nights ?
From 6-9PM it's from my battery bank (that's when the peak around here is.) Late at night it's from those ancient fossil fuel plants that can't be throttled.

I could run all night off batteries (and have on occasion) but that's actually harder on the grid.
--bill von

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 06 2018 3:26am

billvon wrote:
Jul 05 2018 11:41pm
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 05 2018 11:23pm
Actually, ..from me it would have been ..No, i Wont !...
OK. So you have no proof and you won't try to find any. But you just _believe._ Sounds more like your religion than a discussion over energy.
We are living the proof ..
Even you , in RE heaven down there in SD, know that you need those dirty fossil fuels to keep things going for 60% of the time.
From 6-9PM it's from my battery bank (that's when the peak around here is.) Late at night it's from those ancient fossil fuel plants that can't be throttled.
I could run all night off batteries (and have on occasion) but that's actually harder on the grid.
The subject of this discussion is refering to GRID supply..not off grid set ups !
..or maybe you are thinking everyone should have sufficient battery storage to enable an RE grid to function ?
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by billvon » Jul 06 2018 10:11am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 06 2018 3:26am
We are living the proof ..
Nope. Here in SD we get 43% from renewables - and climbing.
Even you , in RE heaven down there in SD, know that you need those dirty fossil fuels to keep things going for 60% of the time.
Again, nope. I don't need them - as has been demonstrated several times.
The subject of this discussion is referring to GRID supply..not off grid set ups !
I do not have an off grid setup. I have an on-grid setup with batteries. I can _make_ it an off grid setup, of course, by pulling one breaker, but I usually don't do that - because I prefer to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
..or maybe you are thinking everyone should have sufficient battery storage to enable an RE grid to function ?
Nope. Just enough to level the demand.
--bill von

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 07 2018 10:28am

Ahh, bill...give it up !
You have already said in your previous post, " after 9pm its on fossil fuels" ...even with your batteries !
But remember we are talking about a GRID SUPPLY. ..that can support all demand , commercial, industrial, services, etc etc .. not just domestic.. So batteries just simply cannot do it !
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by billvon » Jul 07 2018 11:00am

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 07 2018 10:28am
Ahh, bill...give it up !
You have already said in your previous post, " after 9pm its on fossil fuels" ...even with your batteries !
Nope. When I am on batteries 100% I don't need fossil fuels. At all.
But remember we are talking about a GRID SUPPLY. ..that can support all demand , commercial, industrial, services, etc etc .. not just domestic.. So batteries just simply cannot do it !
It will be a combination of batteries, load control, pumped storage, and throttling of available renewable sources (i.e. large hydro.)

Betting against advancements in technology is, in general, a mistake.
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by the e wind » Jul 25 2018 12:37pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 03 2018 11:40pm

You are correct.." Alternative". is definitely the wrong terminology,.. for wind and solar at least.
...
But, the most accurate description of wind and solar electricity generation should be "Intermittent" , "Unreliable", or "unpredictable" due to the non continuous and random output they provide.
...
So no ,..the section is correctly named. :wink:


Ok, is your solar panel reference book dated before 1980? That would really clear some things up... I don't know about you, but my solar panels are the only thing I've ever purchased that carry a 25 year warrantee. Even Honda can't do that... they even continue to work (albeit slightly less efficiently) even after being shattered head-to-toe by hail. So, like seriously, do you have brain damage from an e-bike accident?

Any1 else want to throw up some baseless, un-citeable 'beliefs' about clean energy production? I realize I've stumbled into an existing 90+ page debate on another thread. If you can't give me any #'s, or even a shred of objective reality to back up your attitude, then I realize now that you hate much more than hills. Do you work for an oil company, or are you just horribly ignant? Maybe you live under a solar-heated rock?

There are several coutries in the developed and developing world that use renewables for more than 50% of required power, and many more countries, including America, that will outpace use of coal-derived electricity with clean power in the next 15-20 years.

When is the last time you used a gasifier, installed a solar panel, designed a passive heated building, serviced a wind turbine, aka actually do the things you talk about? The way you talk, sounds like never, or possibly before the year 2000. Why don't you get some facts straight before blundering all over this nice little forum in the dark.
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by LockH » Jul 25 2018 1:21pm

Hehe... Watt he said ^^ I only suggest folks have a "backup plan" ie multiple sources of energy. :wink: Like, when I was working (self-employed accountant) I used to have multiple clients. Lose one for any reason... not a "disaster". :wink:
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 25 2018 6:11pm

the e wind wrote:
Jul 25 2018 12:37pm
Hillhater wrote:
Jul 03 2018 11:40pm

You are correct.." Alternative". is definitely the wrong terminology,.. for wind and solar at least.
...
But, the most accurate description of wind and solar electricity generation should be "Intermittent" , "Unreliable", or "unpredictable" due to the non continuous and random output they provide.
...j
So no ,..the section is correctly named. :wink:



There are several coutries in the developed and developing world that use renewables for more than 50% of required power, and many more countries, including America, that will outpace use of coal-derived electricity with clean power in the next 15-20 years.
Bull sh1t !
Name a developed country that produces 50%+ of its electricity ( annual average) from wind /solar ?
The main source of power generation replacement for coal, is Gas, another fossil fuel.!
RE currently provide less than 9% of the worlds electricity, so you better stop talking and get on with your job if you are trying to crack that 50% before you croak .!
And why dont we confine the debate to the one thread.. The Wind, solar, Nuk etc thread.?
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Punx0r » Jul 26 2018 3:21am

Wrong.

Figures for 2015/16: Global RE share for electricity was 24.5% and total energy consumption was 19.3%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy

List of countries by RE share: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... le_sources

Lots and lots above 50%

There's no need to create your usual Straw Man argument by claiming RE can only be solar & wind.

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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by the e wind » Jul 26 2018 8:27am

Umm, ok, so there's a debate is here now, welcome to my thread, lets not get to 90 pages. Since you've given me no-thing besides hot air and 'gut feelings', here are some actual facts, found by scientists, and verified by people who have electricity in their homes in these respective countries. I'm not here to debate the effectiveness of RE tech, dude, we're here (trying to) discuss the fact that RE tech is becoming a major player in global energy production. It's not the biggest player yet, but in several parts of the world, it provides the same amount, if not more enery, than conventional forms such as coal and/or natural gas. I think 99% of members on here are past that phase, since we all build and maintain high efficiency electric drive vehicles... And yes, I go to work in solar every day in an effort to further positive change on our environment and quality of life, specifically because the world is full of ignorant, argumentative, and unhelpful people such as yourself. Go ahead and hate on that if you want, you seem to be a professional.

Punx0r is about right, let me just second that real quick...
Optimistic Timeline: https://news.stanford.edu/news/2011/jan ... 12611.html
Umm, 50% my @$$: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 69111.html
98%: https://www.regjeringen.no/en/topics/en ... id2343462/
85%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable ... in_Iceland
99.3%: https://www.worlddata.info/america/para ... mption.php
~100%: https://invest-in-albania.org/albania-o ... le-energy/
The big boys: https://www.energydigital.com/renewable ... -countries
And here's continental for you to chew on: https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2 ... australia/

I've got 100's more links, studies, and books like this, how many do you have?
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 26 2018 9:07pm

Punx0r wrote:
Jul 26 2018 3:21am
Figures for 2015/16: Global RE share for electricity was 24.5% and total energy consumption was 19.3%.
i guess it depends on which Wiki figures you believe..
this one lists 9% of total energy..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption
whilst this one suggests only 10% of total energy for 2016..
Image
and this only 5% for wind , solar etc in electricity production.
Image
Punx0r wrote:
Jul 26 2018 3:21am
List of countries by RE share: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... le_sources
Lots and lots above 50%
oh yes, and how many of those are primarily due to Hydro ?
Of course, you have to hide behind hydro, other wise your figures are insignificant.
Hydro is a near ideal power source , But I excluded it for several reasons..
1) we are discussing the effectiveness of RE replacements for fossil fuels, and ultimately Hydro can never be a major player in that sense. All the best sources have already been exploited, any significant further expansion will be in the less productive areas at much greater cost.
2) it is a finite resource only available to areas with suitable geography and rainfall..
3) it is not an option at all for many countries
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Chalo » Jul 26 2018 9:19pm

Hillhater wrote:
Jul 26 2018 9:07pm
Hydro is a near ideal power source,
Hydroelectricity is a useful power source, but it's not the growing energy source of future the way that solar and wind are. As you point out, it's geography-dependent, but it's also vulnerable to drought conditions caused by fossil fuel driven climate change. But even if it doesn't rain, the sun will continue to shine.

I'll point out that the worst solar array disaster you can possibly think of is nothing compared to a little oopsie with a dam or a nuke plant.
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 26 2018 9:55pm

the e wind wrote:
Jul 26 2018 8:27am
Umm, ok, so there's a debate is here now, welcome to my thread, lets not get to 90 pages. Since you've given me no-thing besides hot air and 'gut feelings', here are some actual facts, found by scientists, and verified by people who have electricity in their homes in these respective countries.
Optimistic Timeline: https://news.stanford.edu/news/2011/jan ... 12611.html
what does some academic's prediction bring to the discussion ?
.....especially if he is this naeve .. :shock:
..Based on our findings, there are no technological or economic barriers to converting the entire world to clean, renewable energy sources," said Jacobson,
the e wind wrote:
Jul 26 2018 8:27am
Umm, 50% my @$$: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... ectricity-
renewable-energy-300-days-2017-record-wind-hydro-solar-water-a8069111.html
See above ...78% hydro ( but a nice photo of a Solar panel ! :roll: )
Oh !, and 78% of not much, is hardly worthy of a comment ! ( i guess that is one small hydro dam ?)
95% hydro ! :roll:
Ahh,! Geothermal.. excellent, if only we could all do that ? .But not exactly a big power player ( as much as a small town ?)...and still not much wind or solar ?
More hydro... ( did you notice they only record 0.5% for "Renewables" ..! :wink: )
aaaand more Hydro ! :roll:
But seriously..Albania ! :shock: .. you know you are getting desperate for examples when you site a country with less power consumption than your local shopping mall !
and lets get real, the world is never going to be powered by Hydro, Geo thermal, or Biomass,
If you think you can get to 50% RE, at least find a energy source that can be utilised on a scale to reach that goal.
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Re: This section has the wrong name

Post by Hillhater » Jul 26 2018 10:44pm

I seem to have missed a few comments..
The big boys: https://www.energydigital.com/renewable ... -countries
Wow ! impressive big numbers are they ?
without wasting too much time on all of them i will pick an example that is easily checked if you feel like it..
Germany.. 48.5 GW of solar installed.
actual power production from solar power in 2017 ..38.4 TW, equivalent to an average output of 4.3 GW .. or a 9% cap factor . .... not so impressive ?
And here's continental for you to chew on: https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2 ... australia/
if you paid more attention to useful data ,..(like actual output data https://anero.id/energy/ ), and less to those big headline sales nameplate numbers, you might understand that Australia, despite hugely crippling investments in solar and wind ( including Teslas biggest battery) , still gets less than 10% of its electricity from those sources.
got anymore impressive numbers ??? :roll:
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