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sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 12:48am
by spinningmagnets

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 1:10am
by Hillhater
Hmm ?
648 MWh would weigh approx 6500 tonnes !
And supply 108 MW of power , max
..and the cost ???
How can a battery be 85-90% efficient, whilst keeping 6500 tonnes of mass at 300deg C ? ?

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 5:04am
by Punx0r
"Insulation"

Even the oil-rich Gulf states are smart enough to see the writing is on the wall regarding renewables and if you live in a dessert solar power is a valuable commodity. Australia *could* be equally as smart.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 6:42am
by Hillhater
Australia (South ) , thought they were being smart a few years ago when they committed to wind & Solar, backed up by Teslas (then) worlds biggest battery ..129 MWh, ..100MW output).... But they still have to rely on mainly gas generation (often 90+%) and imported power fromcoal generators.
The battery is an insignificant contribution even to the small 3GW peak demand of SA
A 100 MW capable battery is not really a serious part of a 20-30 GW grid system

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 4:23pm
by cricketo
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 04 2019 6:42am
Australia (South ) , thought they were being smart a few years ago when they committed to wind & Solar, backed up by Teslas (then) worlds biggest battery ..129 MWh, ..100MW output).... But they still have to rely on mainly gas generation (often 90+%) and imported power fromcoal generators.
The battery is an insignificant contribution even to the small 3GW peak demand of SA
A 100 MW capable battery is not really a serious part of a 20-30 GW grid system
South Australia needs to give out special keyboards to climate change trolls - keys equipped with micro generators that will feed energy into the grid. The generation will be pretty tiny on absolute scale, but it's the rate of postings, and round the clock operation that will make it a feasible energy solution.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 5:33pm
by Punx0r
:lol:

One ~100MW battery isn't a significant part of Abu Dhabi''s grid either, but it's a great proof of concept.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 04 2019 5:36pm
by spinningmagnets
I don't know of any other sodium / sulphur battery this large. Someone needs to do this to provide hard data...

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 05 2019 1:08am
by Hillhater
Punx0r wrote:
Feb 04 2019 5:33pm
One ~100MW battery isn't a significant part of Abu Dhabi''s grid either , but it's a great proof of concept.
NaS is way beyond "proof of concept".
This is commercial technology already in operation around the world Since 2002.
spinningmagnets wrote:
Feb 04 2019 5:36pm
I don't know of any other sodium / sulphur battery this large. Someone needs to do this to provide hard data...
Its stated to be the largest, but its certainly not the first sodium sulphur battery installed for grid support.
..infact it looks like there is a 1.5 GWh installation underway in Japan ?
https://www.ngk.co.jp/nas/case_studies/
https://www.ngk.co.jp/nas/case_studies/buzen/
I dont see what extra capacity adds to the knowledge of the technology..but i suspect is likely a different chemical/phsyical product to its predesessors.
Its key advantage should be cycle life, so a smaller pack , cycling more frequently would be better for fast info results.

An interesting paper comparing. PbA, Lithium, NaS, and other options, for an actual Real project
https://www.prpa.org/wp-content/uploads ... ssment.pdf

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 05 2019 5:31am
by Punx0r
If it's Abu Dhabi's first grid-scale battery to support a new trend in PV generation then it is definitely a proof of concept for them.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 05 2019 10:42am
by cricketo
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2019 1:08am
An interesting paper comparing. PbA, Lithium, NaS, and other options, for an actual Real project
https://www.prpa.org/wp-content/uploads ... ssment.pdf
Indeed, good doc.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 05 2019 2:01pm
by spinningmagnets
I should have said that every new version usually has some small improvement that has not yet been advertised.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 05 2019 4:52pm
by Hillhater
Its interesting that these 300+ NaS grid scale large battery installations have largly passed unnoticed over the past 17 years, whilst all the attention has focussed on the fewer, but much hyped, Tesla installations. ?
The power of media influence ?

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 05 2019 10:23pm
by cricketo
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2019 4:52pm
Its interesting that these 300+ NaS grid scale large battery installations have largly passed unnoticed over the past 17 years, whilst all the attention has focussed on the fewer, but much hyped, Tesla installations. ?
The power of media influence ?
Partially. How long did it take for Tesla to roll out some of their storage systems ? Can you make a timeline comparison to those other projects ?

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 06 2019 12:41pm
by billvon
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 05 2019 4:52pm
Its interesting that these 300+ NaS grid scale large battery installations have largly passed unnoticed over the past 17 years, whilst all the attention has focussed on the fewer, but much hyped, Tesla installations. ?
The power of media influence ?
The power of novelty.

"New lithium ion storage systems installed" - people read that; media outlets make money.
"Old sodium sulfur storage systems still working" - no one reads that; media outlets lose money.

Media gives people what they want to read.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 06 2019 8:20pm
by cricketo
billvon wrote:
Feb 06 2019 12:41pm
The power of novelty.

"New lithium ion storage systems installed" - people read that; media outlets make money.
"Old sodium sulfur storage systems still working" - no one reads that; media outlets lose money.

Media gives people what they want to read.
Meh... Try this :
The Tesla CEO made a bet that he could install the world’s biggest battery in South Australia within 100 days, and the whole installation would be free if the company failed. On Thursday, it was revealed that the project has been completed with 46 days to spare.

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 07 2019 12:43am
by Hillhater
cricketo wrote:
Feb 06 2019 8:20pm
Meh... Try this :
The Tesla CEO made a bet that he could install the world’s biggest battery in South Australia within 100 days, and the whole installation would be free if the company failed. On Thursday, it was revealed that the project has been completed with 46 days to spare.
...Its called manipulation of the facts ..!
The battery construction was completed and testing began on 25 November 2017. It was connected to the grid on 1 December 2017.[21] This easily beat Elon Musk's wager of "100 days from contract signature",[10][22][23] which started when a grid connection agreement was signed with ElectraNet on 29 September 2017.[9] Tesla had already begun construction, and some units were already operational by the time the contract was signed....
..the "agreement" with Tesla/AEON was first made on July 7th, ..effectively giving Tesla an extra 83 days "head start" before official project signing on 29th September !
So really it took Tesla 139 days.....more than twice as long as the press release statement. :roll:

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 07 2019 12:52am
by cricketo
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 07 2019 12:43am
So really it took Tesla 139 days.....more than twice as long as the press release statement. :roll:
Cool, you caught them on misrepresentation of facts. How long did it take to construct sodium-sulphur battery references above ?

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 07 2019 3:34am
by Hillhater
cricketo wrote:
Feb 07 2019 12:52am
s
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 07 2019 12:43am
So really it took Tesla 139 days.....more than twice as long as the press release statement. :roll:
Cool, you caught them on misrepresentation of facts. How long did it take to construct sodium-sulphur battery references above ?
The NGK site quotes the following for the 300MWh Fukuoka installation..
.....This is the first MW-scale project in which a newly developed containerized NAS system was utilized. The containerized NAS system expedited installation drastically, and the huge 300MWh installation was implemented in just six months after NGK received the order.....

Re: sodium / sulphur batteries for solar storage

Posted: Feb 07 2019 10:47am
by cricketo
Hillhater wrote:
Feb 07 2019 3:34am
The NGK site quotes the following for the 300MWh Fukuoka installation..
.....This is the first MW-scale project in which a newly developed containerized NAS system was utilized. The containerized NAS system expedited installation drastically, and the huge 300MWh installation was implemented in just six months after NGK received the order.....
So it was faster at 100MW per 60 days. Very cool!