Energy storage

Solar, wind, hydro and other non-fossil sources of electricity.
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unklegrumpknee   10 mW

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Energy storage

Post by unklegrumpknee » Mar 14 2019 8:29am

It doesn't have to be a battery!!!!

Phase change material.
Better yet Bio PCM.
Look at phasechange.com

Using this system one can use off peak power for air conditioning at a time when the outside temperature is less getting more " Cold for the buck"
Virtually unlimited cycle life.
The company has installed data to back up their claims of a three year pay back.
And it doesn't have to be an either/ or situation.
A much smaller battery combined with the PCM system could eliminate peak use completely.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by billvon » Mar 14 2019 1:28pm

unklegrumpknee wrote:
Mar 14 2019 8:29am
Using this system one can use off peak power for air conditioning at a time when the outside temperature is less getting more " Cold for the buck"
Google Ice Bear. It's on the market now.
--bill von

unklegrumpknee   10 mW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by unklegrumpknee » Mar 15 2019 12:42pm

Thanks Bill
What they offer is not new technology.
The use of ice has been practiced for a long time. That's where the term ton of air conditioning started. A ton of ice a day.
A very dense storage system.

But think, doesn't it make more sense to store the energy at a temp closest to it's use.
No additional moving parts.
Less Delta T for the AC unit.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by billvon » Mar 18 2019 2:10pm

unklegrumpknee wrote:
Mar 15 2019 12:42pm
But think, doesn't it make more sense to store the energy at a temp closest to it's use.
Not for A/C systems. They need a more significant temperature difference for effective cooling.

But for things like refrigerators (maintaining one constant temperature, with one level of heat flow in and out) they are great.
--bill von

Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by Punx0r » Mar 19 2019 3:56am

The greater the temperature difference between your storage (thermal mass) and the useage temperature, the physically smaller/lighter your storge will be (but the requirement for effective insulation will increase).

It's why we store hot water above the temperature we want to use it with and then dilute it with cold water. Otherwise we'd need a bigger hot water cyclinder.

Secondly, melting ice is undergoing a phase change (solid to liquid) and absorbs a lot of heat energy. So ice at 0°C disproportionately a lot more potential cooling than water at 1°C.

unklegrumpknee   10 mW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by unklegrumpknee » Apr 02 2019 7:35pm

B. Said Not for A/C systems. They need a more significant temperature difference for effective cooling.
It is not being used for cooling, it is used to store the cold. Like industrial freezer packs

The greater the temperature difference between your storage (thermal mass) and the useage temperature, the physically smaller/lighter your storge will be (but the requirement for effective insulation will increase)
That is for sensible heat storage. The PCM is latent heat. A large amount of energy at the melting point.
Just like your ice example.
Ice is a phase change material. A PCM.
They do cover a large amount of area. Makes transfer easier. They are placed in wall or ceiling so they don't take up any interior space.
Zero space requirements.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by billvon » Apr 02 2019 8:40pm

unklegrumpknee wrote:
Apr 02 2019 7:35pm
B. Said Not for A/C systems. They need a more significant temperature difference for effective cooling.
It is not being used for cooling, it is used to store the cold. Like industrial freezer packs
Well, but that's a slightly different application. Freezer packs go from -5C to +20C, and keep the +20C area close to 0C. They are good at this since they absorb lots of heat at their phase change temperature (say, -2C.)

Lining the interior of a room with PCM will be more problematic. If you set it to 72F (via formulation changes) then you have to get the temperature significantly below 72F to crystallize the material. Then it will tend to maintain a surface temperature of 72F. But then you have to have a temperature significantly _above_ 72F to get good heat transfer.
--bill von

unklegrumpknee   10 mW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by unklegrumpknee » Apr 03 2019 5:52am

B. Said Not for A/C systems. They need a more significant temperature difference for effective cooling.
It is not being used for cooling, it is used to store the cold. Like industrial freezer packs

The greater the temperature difference between your storage (thermal mass) and the useage temperature, the physically smaller/lighter your storge will be (but the requirement for effective insulation will increase)
That is for sensible heat storage. The PCM is latent heat. A large amount of energy at the melting point.
Just like your ice example.
Ice is a phase change material. A PCM.
They do cover a large amount of area. Makes heat transfer easier. They are placed in wall or ceiling so they don't take up any interior space.
Zero space requirements.

billvon   100 MW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by billvon » Apr 03 2019 7:11pm

unklegrumpknee wrote:
Apr 03 2019 5:52am
B. Said Not for A/C systems. . . . They are placed in wall or ceiling so they don't take up any interior space. Zero space requirements.
If they are placed in walls and ceilings (presumably of inhabited space) but they are not used for A/C purposes - what are they for?
--bill von

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by amberwolf » Apr 03 2019 8:31pm

The basic idea is something like "thermal mass" (without much mass), to keep the room within a narrower temperature range.

A while back before my housefire, I looked around at PCM wallboard, that does basiclaly this. Dunno how they work exactly, but that's how they were advertized.


(after the fire, didn't need it, they added an inch of foamboard insulation between the walls and the drywall, whcih has made a tremendous difference all by itself).

unklegrumpknee   10 mW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by unklegrumpknee » Apr 03 2019 8:43pm

Exactly Amberwolf thermal mass. Constant temperature thermal mass. Which is even better.

unklegrumpknee   10 mW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by unklegrumpknee » Apr 03 2019 8:55pm

The latent heat of water is 144 BTU/lb
1 degree F raise in temp requires 1 BTU
A lot of the PCM'S are about half.
So that one pound melting is equal in storage to 72 lbs of water changing one degree,

jhaz6471   100 µW

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Re: Energy storage

Post by jhaz6471 » Apr 14 2019 11:10am

If you were to build a new house 2k - 2.5k sq ft, Insulate it well , put up a double car garage and put a basement under it, and insulate it.
Fill it with water , there is enough heat value in it to heat your house the entire winter. Summer season there is enough ice for the summer for cooling in north east Ohio.

1) heat pump 2 for 1 energy value -buy one . get one free
2) No waste of energy of the season, hot or cold
3) heat pump does not operate in the summer

One giant ice cube :shock:

JimJr

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