EM3ev WARNING - abysmal customer support.

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P3yot3   100 mW

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EM3ev WARNING - abysmal customer support.

Post by P3yot3 » Apr 30 2021 6:27am

Hello all.

I'm posting here in the hope of getting some help from this very knowledgeable community & also to hopefully get some kind of response from EM3ev regarding my issues - here's my story:

I'm building a solar assisted touring trike & after searching around the webz for a few weeks I decided that the EM3ev 52V (14S7P) Hard Case Rectangular battery was the best (albeit pricey) option. I had several email conversations with Joseph regarding my project including the solar aspect & the ability to change the battery on the go from the solar via the Anderson recharge connectors as shown on their website. Joseph was very knowledgeable & helpful which was a deciding factor for me so I went ahead & ordered one with the dual speed charger for good measure.
After 3 weeks with apparently no tracking change I emailed EM3ev requesting some info on it's whereabouts & they said they would contact the courier & find out. According to a web search, there are at least 2 international airports within a 100km range of the EM3ev address, so it was difficult to imagine why a courier couldn't transfer the parcel to one of them within 3 weeks, so I looked up the courier (DTDC) on TrustPilot out of curiosity & my heart sank - they had the worst reputation I had ever seen for a courier - 1 star, just.
I hadn't heard back from EM3ev so, armed with what I had learned about the courier, I contacted them again via email suggesting that they should consider the parcel missing/lost & we should organise a replacement asap as it was almost a month since the order was shipped. Thankfully, the very next day it turned up in the UK & was delivered the next morning. Phew....I thought, until I unpacked it.
The first thing I noticed was that there was zero documentation included for either the charger or the battery. I presumed I could download them from the "my orders" section of my EM3ev account, but no - nothing available & no links anywhere else to download them. The second thing I noticed was that when lifting out the charger from the well packed box, a disturbing rattle could be heard coming from inside. This was of great concern, it sounded like something had come loose. The third thing I noticed while peeling off the protective layer on the battery was the absence of the Anderson charging cable/connector I eluded to earlier & had discussed with Joseph - it just wasn't there. This meant that the only way I could connect my solar was through a flimsy 3 pin charger plug that isn't available anywhere that I can find in the EU, or I'd have to open up the battery itself & see if I can solder the wires for the Anderson connector myself - both of these options are far from ideal. The next thing I discovered while inspecting the battery was a crack/damage to one of the corners:

Image

Obviously this means any water resistance is gone & the probability of the damage getting worse through vibration, etc is high. So, all things considered, I'm pretty hacked off with this whole experience so far. After waiting a month for delivery I have a charger I'm scared to use & a battery I can't use due to missing connectors & corner/joint damage - plus I can't risk using the charger to charge it of course. I did manage to get the object that was rattling around in the charger out through the fan outlet eventually - it was a piece of solder:

Image

I am however reluctant to try it out in case I damage the battery/charger - plus I can't use the battery anyway, so there's really no point in trying.
Had there been no crack to the battery casing I was prepared to try & solder the required connections myself - which was why I was going to ask the community here for any info on the internals, but finding the crack is the last straw for me I'm afraid. As of now I'm still waiting for a reply from EM3ev to my last email regarding the missing connections, but having discovered the cracked casing in the meantime I feel I have no option but to return the whole lot, so I gave them a call today & got 2 minutes of classical music before being cut off. Three times. No answering machine or anything & it was in office hours in China. Not happy.

So, if anyone here has any contact with anyone at EM3ev I'd really appreciate it if they could contact me/them here, as reaching customer support at EM3ev is just draining. I'd appreciate any input or suggestions from the community here.

Thanks for reading & look forward to hearing from somebody/anybody regarding my experience with EM3ev.
Last edited by P3yot3 on Jun 08 2021 6:22am, edited 3 times in total.

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E-HP   100 MW

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » Apr 30 2021 7:27am

P3yot3 wrote:
Apr 30 2021 6:27am
The first thing I noticed was that there was zero documentation included for either the charger or the battery. I presumed I could download them from the "my orders" section of my EM3ev account, but no - nothing available & no links anywhere else to download them.
Hmm, it never occurred to me that ebike batteries would come with documentation. Is that common??

EDIT: actually I've never seen any batteries come with documentation, so I think I understand the issue. I've seen car batteries have a warranty card, but no instructions. usually red is positive, and black is negative though. on other batteries there may be a stamp or marking that says (+) or (-), so (+) is usually positive, and (-) is usually negative, but sometimes stuff from China may be labeled incorrectly, but instructions wouldn't help there.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by MadRhino » Apr 30 2021 7:36am

No matter how reliable that sellers use to be, nobody can be sure that everything is going to be fine when you buy online from a foreign country. When you buy in China, it is normal to receive documentation in Chinese, or none at all. It is common to experience shipping delays and sometimes, transport damage.

That is why I always recommend paying online with a credit card that has online buying protection. They will refund if the goods are not as expected, damaged in transport, or missing. This is turning the full responsibility to the seller and shipping company.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » Apr 30 2021 7:40am

@E-HP: Yes, it's common. I've bought a few chargers/batteries in my time & they all came with info/usage/safety/specs documentation. In many countries it's actually a requirement.

@MadRhino: It was paid by CC.

I'm aware of all the risks of buying online. Thanks for your input though.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by neptronix » Apr 30 2021 7:56am

I think ebikes.ca might be the only company i've bought something from where documentation was sent.

We hear complaints about em3ev's customer service being insanely slow to respond every spring.
em3ev's products are good and well designed but i hate to hear they didn't take care of you.

I suspect your battery is fine and just took some damage in shipping and is easily sealed back up.

Returning the battery is probably going to be super expensive and i'd advise you to get your hands on a charge/discharge port adapter instead.

The piece of solder makes the charger the sketchy thing here and that is the thing i'd not use until it is opened and inspected.
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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » Apr 30 2021 8:19am

Hi neptronix,

Yes, Grin are very good - I've used them often.

I checked the box thoroughly for damage on arrival & after spotting the defects - there is no damage to the box at all & the items were very well packaged with no movement possible. The rattling charger was immediately obvious, but the cracked/damaged case was only noticeable on closer inspection after the protective layer was removed & looks to have been done during assembly in my view. To me it seems to be a QC issue on both charger & battery - but I'm struggling for an excuse for the missing charge connections....

I read on their website that returns are posted to within the UK, so that's not such a problem - the problem is getting hold of support to arrange a replacement which also has the correct leads/connections. I still want a battery from them as I believe they are (usually) of the best quality & I just got a rare bad one, but as you say, customer support is lapse - which is very frustrating after waiting a month & parting with so much cash.

Regards.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » Apr 30 2021 8:26am

neptronix wrote:
Apr 30 2021 7:56am
I think ebikes.ca might be the only company i've bought something from where documentation was sent.

We hear complaints about em3ev's customer service being insanely slow to respond every spring.
em3ev's products are good and well designed but i hate to hear they didn't take care of you.

I suspect your battery is fine and just took some damage in shipping and is easily sealed back up, but you do deserve better treatment.

Returning the battery is probably going to be super expensive and i'd advise you to get your hands on a charge/discharge port adapter instead.

The piece of solder makes the charger the sketchy thing here and that is the thing i'd not use until it is opened and inspected.
I read one vendor related issue, the Anderson plug. One partial vendor related issue, the piece of errant solder from the generic crappy chargers all vendors toss in (I have one with solder rattling around, but it works fine. plugged it in a tested it, and didn't worry after that; but good tip on trying to get it to fall out the fan opening). Everything else seem to be frustrations that aren't necessarily vendor related or realistic expectations.

I set shipping expectations to 6 to 8 weeks minimum from ordering, before it's worth contacting the vendor about. Shipping damage sucks, and will always be a gamble because of the return hassle making it not worth it. Sucks, but just part of buying from China.

Documentation? Really, what do you need with a battery, especially if you're a DIYer?

Communications? I'm impressed that there's even a phone number. With a typical Chinese vendor would you'd be sending emails and waiting a couple of weeks for a reply.

MadRhino's advice is solid if you're going to buy from China and want to protect your money the most. You won't avoid the other
"buying from China" frustrations though. Right now, you just need some sort of compensation for the shipping damage, and have them send another charger if you're afraid of using the current one or plugging it in a testing it.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » Apr 30 2021 8:36am

@E-HP: As I explained in my previous post, I've had good communications with them up until this point. I don't want compensation for anything - I want to return these items that are both damaged & not to spec with what I ordered. Both are unusable.

Replacement is the only option I'm afraid.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by neptronix » Apr 30 2021 8:56am

Well, wait until you see what it costs to ship an item back to China.

If the battery is fully working and free of construction defects ( likely; em3ev is known for good product quality and engineering ), then you can simply use a $10 adapter or re-solder the existing connectors to make use of it.

It's completely understandable that you are frustrated with their customer service and the dent. I just doubt that a return is the best way forward. Good luck and i hope things get resolved for you one way or another.
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My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500 MTB.
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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » Apr 30 2021 9:00am

P3yot3 wrote:
Apr 30 2021 8:36am
@E-HP: As I explained in my previous post, I've had good communications with them up until this point. I don't want compensation for anything - I want to return these items that are both damaged & not to spec with what I ordered. Both are unusable.

Replacement is the only option I'm afraid.
Got it. Then I guess you're covered with respect to the advice you were seeking. MadRhino for advice before purchasing, Neptronix for advice after purchasing, so you're making a fully informed decision.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » Apr 30 2021 10:31am

neptronix wrote:
Apr 30 2021 8:56am
Well, wait until you see what it costs to ship an item back to China.
As I said in my previous post, returns in the UK are posted to within the UK - they have a receiving address here.

I've sent them another email pointing them to this thread & asking them to comment or contact me here - maybe that will give them an incentive. I have no doubt that they are a reputable company, but as a few people have mentioned, their CS is a bit "different".

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by aroundqube » Apr 30 2021 12:11pm

My experience with EM3ev batteries is that they have a label noting the battery cells name and number inside, and configuration. I then look at the EM3ev battery information for documentation . https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s7p-rectan ... 5888671875

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » Apr 30 2021 12:28pm

Hi aroundqube,

Yes, I read that a few times before ordering, but there's no info on, for example, initial charging time (which is important), or what settings to use on the charger for that initial charge - low or high, etc. At the very least there should be a general "first use" guide.
However, it's not needed atm as I can't use the charger or battery anyway until I can contact support for a replacement.

Regards & thanks for the input.

Edit: According to the diagram on the charger only 2 of the 3 pins are used (+ & -) - does anyone here know if the 3rd pin is used at all? This is where a schematic/charger manual would come in handy...

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by nicobie » Apr 30 2021 4:24pm

You should have gotten a manual for the charger. I'm sure they will email one to you if asked. If I was in your position I would seal the crack with something (hot glue, epoxy, plastic dip) and tape then use it paying attention with a voltmeter for the first few uses. (which needs to be done with all new batteries anyway) Otherwise you'll be waiting a couple months for the replacement.

Same thing with the charger. It's probably OK. With anything from China without proper UL testing, It's up to you to check operation.
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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » Apr 30 2021 4:48pm

P3yot3 wrote:
Apr 30 2021 12:28pm
Hi aroundqube,

Yes, I read that a few times before ordering, but there's no info on, for example, initial charging time (which is important), or what settings to use on the charger for that initial charge - low or high, etc. At the very least there should be a general "first use" guide.
However, it's not needed atm as I can't use the charger or battery anyway until I can contact support for a replacement.
The battery forum is a wonderful resource: viewforum.php?f=14

How you charge is a preference that won't be in a manual. For longevity, charge to 80-90% and never go below 20%. Fully charge occasionally to balance, but ride around afterwards to bring it back down from fully charge (or fully charge before your trip, but ride shortly after charged). None of the stuff you really want to know about maintaining a battery will be in a manual.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by markz » Apr 30 2021 5:41pm

Which means buying a big enough battery that is more then you need, but will get you the distance you require when you ride and after you are done riding still have lots and lots of juice left, for either A) battery longevity or B) the rare time you have to ride further then usual.

Lets say you ride 15 miles round trip and use up 300Wh (random #) then best to buy a 400Wh battery if charging to 85%.

The slower the charge the better.
But then you have to weigh that with how much time do you have.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » May 01 2021 4:48am

markz wrote:
Apr 30 2021 5:41pm

Lets say you ride 15 miles round trip and use up 300Wh (random #) then best to buy a 400Wh battery if charging to 85%.
Hi markz,

The trike will be used for extensive touring, initially around Europe for testing & training, if everything goes well I'll be participating in the Sun Ride with it. This is why I need the best quality components & have to be sure that everything as spot on - the last thing I need is to be stuck out in the middle of nowhere because my battery casing cracked open due to a fault that wasn't rectified before setting off. But as I mentioned earlier, I can't use the battery anyway because EM3ev didn't put the charging cables in place for the solar as agreed & paid for, so even if it wasn't cracked, I still need to replace it.

I've still not heard anything from EM3ev & it seems China is now on holiday until the 8th May so I'm not expecting to hear from them at least until then, if at all. More waiting.....I'm beginning to lose all faith in hearing from them TBH & think that I might have to begin charge back proceedings with my bank, which would be a shame & more hassle.....I'd rather not go down that route.

Regarding the faulty charger, after searching around I discovered it was made by Kunshan ST Electronics Co. Ltd but is no longer on their website, so still no schematics or manual available to see if the 3rd pin is used.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » May 01 2021 10:07am

P3yot3 wrote:
May 01 2021 4:48am
Regarding the faulty charger, after searching around I discovered it was made by Kunshan ST Electronics Co. Ltd but is no longer on their website, so still no schematics or manual available to see if the 3rd pin is used.
I don't think you posted a pic of the connector. If it's an XLR3 connector, then you simply need your DMM and measure them. Two pins will provide battery voltage.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g-YAAOSw ... -l1600.jpg

Regardless of how many pins there are, only two are used.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » May 01 2021 11:10am

E-HP wrote:
May 01 2021 10:07am
Regardless of how many pins there are, only two are used.
Not true I'm afraid. Some batteries (usually good, high end ones) use the 3rd pin as a communications signal, a thermistor for example, or charge control. I've had a couple of batteries/chargers that use the 3rd pin - it's usually there for a reason, although many manufacturers (low end) choose not to use it.

Here is a picture:

Image

Grin use the same charger, but I'm unsure weather they utilise the 3rd pin.

Anyhow, it's going off topic now & I'd like to keep the focus on EM3ev if possible, thanks.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » May 01 2021 11:48am

P3yot3 wrote:
May 01 2021 11:10am
E-HP wrote:
May 01 2021 10:07am
Regardless of how many pins there are, only two are used.
Not true I'm afraid. Some batteries (usually good, high end ones) use the 3rd pin as a communications signal, a thermistor for example, or charge control. I've had a couple of batteries/chargers that use the 3rd pin - it's usually there for a reason, although many manufacturers (low end) choose not to use it.

Here is a picture:

Image

Grin use the same charger, but I'm unsure weather they utilise the 3rd pin.

Anyhow, it's going off topic now & I'd like to keep the focus on EM3ev if possible, thanks.
OK, maybe you have one of those. I guess you have three wires on the battery side too, correct?
I thought the EM3EV smart BMS took care of cutting things off using the battery temp sensor, but I guess you're saying it talks to the charger.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by P3yot3 » May 01 2021 12:14pm

E-HP wrote:
May 01 2021 11:48am
I guess you have three wires on the battery side too, correct?
I thought the EM3EV smart BMS took care of cutting things off using the battery temp sensor, but I guess you're saying it talks to the charger.
I don't know because, as I explained earlier, I wasn't sent any documentation/schematics whatsoever for either the charger or battery - that's why I asked. I don't want to take either apart to find out for myself because that will invalidate my warranty, which I will need for the replacement process.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected. Help needed.

Post by E-HP » May 01 2021 1:33pm

P3yot3 wrote:
May 01 2021 12:14pm

I don't know because, as I explained earlier, I wasn't sent any documentation/schematics whatsoever for either the charger or battery - that's why I asked. I don't want to take either apart to find out for myself because that will invalidate my warranty, which I will need for the replacement process.
OK, but for future reference, when you get around to it, you could add a female ST3 connector to the battery, you could get an ST3 to Anderson cable so you can use your charger to charge when you need to, and the adapter cable when charging from your solar design.
https://california-ebike.com/shop/ander ... ter-cable/

How much charge current is your design going to provide? You didn't say which cells you selected for the pack, but say they were 30Q, then with a 7P pack, the standard charge current for the pack would be 10.5A, based on the cells, if the BMS allows it. Seems most charging wires that packs come with should be able to handle that, so you wouldn't need to open the pack, just add a connector to the battery.

Again, just info in case you become overly frustrated by the process, as others have shared with you.

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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected & no support.

Post by P3yot3 » May 11 2021 1:26am

So, an update on the EM3ev situation. I've still had no replies to my emails & they're still not answering their phone, so the only conclusions I can come up with is that EM3ev have either done an exit scam or are just ignoring customers who's money they have already got - I will update the OP accordingly as a warning to any forum users who are considering using them - DON'T!

I've had plenty of time to think about the situation & it's all starting to make sense - in the process of exiting they used up their old/defective stock by sending it out to their remaining customers as orders - this would explain why I got a rattling charger & a damaged different battery to what I ordered. No wonder they were so friendly prior to me placing my order.

I have no option now but to begin the charge back process with my CC & can only warn other forum users thinking of ordering anything from these scamming cowboys - STAY AWAY!! Use a reputable company that you can actually visit if things go pear-shaped.

Anyone want to by an expensive paperweight?

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Re: EM3ev WARNING - Possible exit scam!

Post by pwd » May 11 2021 9:10am

For what it's worth; em3ev has sent me documentation about the charger and battery pack that I just ordered to my email address after placing an order. Perhaps it went to your spam/junk area?
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Re: EM3ev - Not what I expected & no support.

Post by Jim Subzero » May 20 2021 1:54pm

P3yot3 wrote:
May 11 2021 1:26am
So, an update on the EM3ev situation. I've still had no replies to my emails & they're still not answering their phone, so the only conclusions I can come up with is that EM3ev have either done an exit scam or are just ignoring customers who's money they have already got - I will update the OP accordingly as a warning to any forum users who are considering using them - DON'T!

I've had plenty of time to think about the situation & it's all starting to make sense - in the process of exiting they used up their old/defective stock by sending it out to their remaining customers as orders - this would explain why I got a rattling charger & a damaged different battery to what I ordered. No wonder they were so friendly prior to me placing my order.

I have no option now but to begin the charge back process with my CC & can only warn other forum users thinking of ordering anything from these scamming cowboys - STAY AWAY!! Use a reputable company that you can actually visit if things go pear-shaped.

Anyone want to by an expensive paperweight?
Characterizing your order as an "exit scam" makes no sense. You received the products you ordered minus one connector. Your issue about manuals also makes little or no sense. The info on the em3 site is equivalent to the useful info, if any, found in typical manuals. Your unwillingness to experiment with what you received is surprising in someone designing and making a unique electric vehicle.

You are legitimately concerned, however, about EM3's poor communication. And, by the way, I recently ordered the same pack from EM3. It is "partly shipped" according to them. I hope and expect to get it sometime reasonably soon with the connectors EM3 agreed to supply it with. If not, I'll post here. I ordered from them because of their excellent reputation.

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