Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

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garyal1   10 mW

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Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by garyal1 » May 22 2018 11:19am

I ordered a Luna apex with all the bells and whistles back on April 6th. At the time they posted a 21 day lead time on their website. I knew this would not be true from reading about their customer service issues here and on other websites. However, this is the bike I want(ed). I am talking over $10K with second battery, Rolhoff, carbon rims etc. My order number is 49677 and they charged the full amount against my Amex within an hour. This price included California sales tax and freight.


A week ago, (45 days since order placed)I noticed on the Luna website that you cannot now order this bike with the Rolhoff hub, which is what I ordered. I contacted Luna thru email as they do not answer their phone. I asked what the problem was with my order containing the Rolhoff hub and how long would it be before I could get my bike. the response told me the Rolhoffs were on "back order" and therefore my bike was not even yet in the "que"! I then asked AGAIN how long, and got no answer.


Next I opened a trouble ticket and asked, will my bike be ready in the next 30 days. I was told they would ask the "production Manager" and get back to me. That was 5 days ago and I reasked again FOUR DAYS AGO AND STILL NOT EVEN THE COMMON COURTESEY OF any ANSWER.


With their order system, you cannot make ANY change once you place the order so I cannot even tell them to drop the Rolhoff upgrade without canceling this order and then placing another order which would of course move me to the back of the que.

It is a shame, but I am now trying to figure out an alternative Ultra Bike with full suspension and enthusuiast level components as it APPEARS lUNA IS STONEWALLING ME IN THE HOPES i WILL JUST CANCEL MY $10k ORDER SO THEY DO NOT HAVE TO ADMIT THEY HAVE HELD MY MONEY FOR OVER TWO MONTHS and TREATED ME LIKE A MUSHROOM. (feed me crap and keep me in the dark)

Too bad, this appears to be a great bike but their business model makes the customer feel like a chump instead of a valued customer.


Can anyone recommend a different FS eBike with bafang Ultra??? Need to know for sure it will have enough rear end ridgidity to handle the Ultra with full suspension without too much flex. Looking for a company to deal with that shows some honor and integrity to their customers and will at LEAST be willing to keep me informed about build progress or if any bumps appear in the delivery process.

Now tell me: Is thqt asking too much from a company who claims to be customer oriented? Any advice would be appreciated.

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by Voltron » May 22 2018 11:49am

Not a comment towards Luna specifically, but the shift to email only and work tickets is the biggest abdication of a companies customer care going. I just went thru trying to get a motor for a guys e skateboard, and the endless chain of emails that would show up at the end of the day, with a series of questions that could have been done in a one minute phone call, turned it into a slow motion wait fest. The infuriating thing was after the tedious one question at a time emails and final approval, the motor was there in 1 day! After 2 weeks of waiting for emails!

Eric_Swing   10 µW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by Eric_Swing » May 22 2018 2:34pm

I'm terribly sorry you're going through this currently. I know firsthand what it feels like to be treated with disrespect from a company you're trying to do business with.

But, unfortunately, this seems to be a trend with Luna, especially when ordering factory bikes from them.

For your consideration:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comment ... cle_after/

https://www.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comment ... cycle_100/

I am unsure if this extends to individual part orders or not.

markz   100 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by markz » May 22 2018 3:00pm

$10k in one basket.

How did you pay?
Credit Card/Paypal easy refunds

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by MadRhino » May 22 2018 3:04pm

garyal1 wrote:
May 22 2018 11:19am
... I knew this would not be true from reading about their customer service issues here and on other websites. However, this is the bike I want(ed). I am talking over $10K ...


... Any advice would be appreciated.
Reminds me of the old story: ‘I knew this was sh*t, but couldn’t resist tasting it’

Get your money back if you can, and don’t do it again.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
Current bikes
Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg

garyal1   10 mW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by garyal1 » May 22 2018 3:18pm

Eric: Thanks for the links! So this has been their business method for at least a year and they are still doing this?

Paid with Amex so no problem getting a refund....


Yep, Still taste it, but still was hoping they would at least tell me how long, after checking out the links Eric supplied, I see it was just wishful thinking.


Still hoping for some advice on options for FS ultra bike with high end components. Has any of the new Frey 1000 owners had any issues with the geometry flexing? I have no FS experience. I am riding a BSSHD with entry level stuff and 26x4.0 fat tires on a hard tail frame from China.


Just wanted to upgrade to the Best FS Ultra with torque sensor and have some fun, did not want all the hassle and frustration.

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by Eric_Swing » May 22 2018 4:51pm

I didn't mean to derail your post but I did want to make you aware this isn't a one-off thing with Luna.
garyal1 wrote:
May 22 2018 3:18pm
Eric: Thanks for the links! So this has been their business method for at least a year and they are still doing this?
No problem! :D And, I suppose so. I'm assuming they generate enough revenue and profit from filling retail orders versus their complete/custom builds.

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by Mick48 » May 23 2018 3:46am

On the same note, I purchased one of the Fusion E-bikes from Luna in late March of this year.
It was the "Luna Fusion Crusher 3" with the BBHSD and the Ludicrous 2500 watt controller upgrade.
3 weeks of waiting to see what was going on led to me putting in a trouble ticket with my order
number--- only to find out 4 days later that they haven't started anything on the bike (awaiting fulfillment).
They could not give me an estimated time, rather their answer was "builds take time" and at a minimum
would be at least 4 weeks. The turnarond time for the trouble ticket wasn't bad, probably because it wasn't
yet their busy time of the year.
Finally, I received the bike some time later. Gotta say, it was very well put together and sharp looking.
BUT, I found out several optional/standard items I ordered were overlooked on my bike and never installed:
Colt Seat/Seat post, Gear Sensor, 52V 21AH Q stickers, and a few other minor items. Doesn't sound like alot, but
I was somewhat pissed at the fact that they didnt even check the checkoff sheet before shipment.
All I can say is if you are still going through with this build, to make sure your bike has Everthing you ordered on
it because they will not say anything about it until you find it. Good luck.

garyal1   10 mW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by garyal1 » May 23 2018 3:13pm

I heard from Luna today!
1) First of all you need to know, As of last night I had not as yet asked for a refund from Luna as I was venting here and still "hoping" they would do the right thing.

Here is my email from last week. As you can see, all I wanted to know was if the bike would be ready in 30 days!

Email from me to Luna last Thursday:
Dear Rod,
Second Request:
Kindly let me know estimated ship date for this bike. ORDER NO: 49677.
I just want to know if it will be ready and shipped in the next 30 days or not.




UP until this morning I had no reply to this simple request.

This morning I got this email from their "customer Service"!

Hi there, sorry to hear you are unhappy with our build time. We are refunding your order so you can take your business elsewhere.
Should see refund notification within next two days, may take another day or so for the funds to show up in your bank depending on the bank used.

-Gary
Luna CS Mgr
.
________________________________________


No I NEVER HAD as of yet ASKED for a refund and cancelation!! They are lurking on this webiste and decided to "punish" me for compalining publicly about their terrible customer service! LMAO.

Of course they charged my card within minutes of my order and then he tried to tell me it would take 2 days to get me a refund! LMAO. So I called Amex and explained the situation to them. They looked over my account and said, well we just won't wait for Luna, we are crediting your account immediately as of this minute and we wiwll take care of this for you as this vendor is abviously not honorable.


Two hours later I had AN
OTHER email from their famed "customer Service" We have creditied your account. LMAO! Amex TOOK the money from them and they then tried to make out like they gave me back my money promptly!


In a two hour time period thru Ivy at Frey, I ordered an AM1000 with SRAM X1 group set, 2 each,17.4 AH batteries at 52 volts with upgraded rear shock and a rebuild kit for the rear suspension so when it needs it, I will have the parts. Luna should hire IVY away from FREY. Ivy is everything relating to customer service that Luna is not! Talk about prompt, knowledgable and courteous!


The cost with all of this was LESS than 50% of the cost from Luna and even with ocean freight, I will have this bike BEFORE Luna would have shipped me that Apex.


Now I am using the other 50% of my refund from Luna to order a hardtail FLX Blade that will arrive at my work in less than 2 weeks! Not bad, one hardtail and one Full suspension bike, BOTH with Bafang Ultra 1000, Both with SRAM X1 eMTB gear sets, both with 4 piston 203 / 180 Magura brakes. BOTH for less than the one Luna Apex and both from companies that will actually respond to me with answers, not just BS!

Thanks Luna for cancelling my order! You REALLY helped me upgrade, II just hope sharing these terrible experiences here helps some other poor sucker.
Last edited by garyal1 on May 24 2018 1:49pm, edited 2 times in total.

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E-geezer   100 W

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by E-geezer » May 23 2018 5:49pm

The Frey is a better designed bike anyway FWIW.
The older I get, the faster I was

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by tomjasz » May 24 2018 12:24am

Exactly the same problems as in 2016. Missing parts, missing cables, no packing list and a defiant attitude mixed with being the poor me victims of the market. “Selling bikes is hard.” Maybe walk for a coupl3 of years before running? Build a team that can keep up, then offer. Always an apology with we’ll fix it...days later the same events.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by LeftieBiker » May 24 2018 1:25am

Having dealt with similar "companies" in the distant past, I suggest that people avoid Luna because instead of improving their business model they are moving in the opposite direction. If they follow the usual arc, soon they will be refusing to refund orders when possible, and will just deliver a crap version of them as late as possible. Looks like I won't be buying that Sur Ron after all...

garyal1   10 mW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by garyal1 » May 25 2018 8:22am

WOW, 24 hours after ordering the Blade FLX, I got a shipping notice. Bike is already on the way from their warehouse in San Diego. Should be here mid next week! :lol:

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efMX Trials Electric Freeride   100 kW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by efMX Trials Electric Freeride » May 28 2018 7:48am

LeftieBiker wrote:
May 24 2018 1:25am
.. Looks like I won't be buying that Sur Ron after all...
if you really want a Sur-ron you could always order it direct from china :
http://shop.m.jd.com/?shopId=732127

or contact Aebikes, they are an international Sur-ron dealer with worldwide shipping and good customer service :
https://www.aebikes.com.au

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=90645&start=175#p1383346
some ride & sk8 videos:
metacafe.com/channels/NATAS666DAMIEN
http://www.youtube.com/natas666damien
i have nothing for sale.. :)

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 20 2018 2:53pm

Noted

Looks to be legit posts to me.
Could be trolling, does not look like it.

As for Luna...
My guess is that they will outlast the "normal curve"

That would be a guess based on my projection of the resources available to the proprieter
(Where others run dry, Eric may be able to span the gap - I have no personal knowledge but have heard rumors)

Running a proper business takes A LOT of people
People in Test and inspection
People in Customer Support
People people people

No idea what their Business Charter is
It may have nothing to do with good customer support
Perhaps it is just a sport company... for the fun of it... I know guys who do that sort of thing.

They are of course free to do so.

I am interested to see developments around safety and reliability of Lithium. I see some other companies making progress in this area.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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ambroseliao   100 kW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by ambroseliao » Jun 20 2018 3:13pm

The big red flag warning for me is the immediate charge to your credit card without any indication of when it would be shipped. WARNING, WARNING! :shock:
http://www.ebikes.ca/ is the best!

TidalForce M-750X, Tidalforce S-750 with Crystalyte HS3540, 1x TF iO-X Cruiser. E+ 1000W hybrid bike. ebikes.ca DrainBrain & Cycle Analyst meters. GoPro HD Hero2 camera. Bosch Fat Packs, 37V 10Ah LiPO pack. Turnigy Multistar batteries
My blog: http://ebikerider.blogspot.com
Remember LiFEPo4 HVC is 3.65V and LVC is 2.7V

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 20 2018 4:00pm

A positive example of a company that runs a *VERY GOOD* automatic Email setup is: OSH Park

They send out updates at every step thru the process
They answer emails very quickly and seamlessly update orders

Speaking of which - They owe me a PO on an expedited shipping order.
They got the parts to me double-time but have yet to charge me for it.

...

I have not ordered from Luna in some time.

I am back on the Ebike hunt (as my CPA caught the ebike bug BAD...) and I am about to spend some money.
Maybe $5k

Not sure where to spend it.
I usually try to spend my money in a way that will vet a company or ... I vote with my cash.

With Ebike parts I buy from Ebikes.ca because I have seen directly how the money I spend goes into the quality improvement of the product (and the industry).

Now... let me scoot over to Luna.. (just a sec)
...
(back)

Yea - looks like they have some pretty radical stuff for sale.

I searched for "Torque" and they sell a torque arm
(tho... in 15 seconds of browsing... I saw TWO knock-offs...)

* I bought one of the original torque arms that they appear to have knocked off
* I see that they are selling a fluid ... using a term which implies knock-off...

But they are selling torque arms (which is a good sign - as they are absofuckinglutely required...)

Let me search some more
(this was supposed to be a positive pitch for them... grrr.... let me find something positive

Batteries... yea... they have lots of batteries for sale.
I bought 10 or so of them in the past
All the cells were fine. The BMS were junk.

What can you say eh?
They are providing pretty high performance stuff at a pretty reasonable price.

Looks like they are giving the light weight motorcycle market a run for its money with the :
https://lunacycle.com/sur-ron-mx-electric/

My concern is that they may have been marketing that as an ebike
They clearly are not - its is marketed as off road

Duh know - looks like they are contributing to the Electric Revolution to me. :?:

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 20 2018 4:10pm

To throw Luna a bone...

Here is a YouTube video that gave me a near-erection



Yea...
This is a DIY website and....
That offering is pretty much stomping out every last bit of EV DIY

BUT
Zero Motorcycles dropped the ball on the sweet spot between Bike and Motorcycle

Looks like Luna picked it up.
You have got to respect that.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 20 2018 4:26pm

At time 6:20 they go over the throttle
(note... this is basically a motorcycle... so.. throttle safety is MUCH more important - eh?)

Super great to see that they utilized a sealed box with hall sensors activated by a cable.
Super bummed to see that there are only 3 wires coming out of the box
No throttle interlock is my suspicion - so that would mean that any length of cable (from that sealed box to the controller) is subject to failure analysis.

Should the cable become frayed and wet etc - it would present a hazard - so at a minimum I would be looking for that cable to be very well protected from abrasion.

They are using proper IP rated connectors... and that is a VERY GOOD SIGN.

AH... yes... wiring harness is taped up and mounted (good)

Controller is potted... nice

Battery looks SUPER legit
Much focus on water ingress... nice

...

I dont know man...
This looks to be one of the best engineered offerings we have seen in the Ebike Market

(watching...)

Solid lighting

Under $5k for a light weight Motorcycle
Hmmm

Range?
Top Speed?

Meh -
Sure looks like an interesting starting point for modifications

In that light -
Clearly Luna (if they are shipping these) is doing a great service to the DIY community around light weight EV's

Thanks Eric

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 20 2018 4:38pm

This ES post (of the OEM) searched out at 40mph

search.php?keywords=mph&t=89902&sf=msgonly



overheating reports - on a search of key word "miles" but that may be with an old design

search.php?keywords=miles&t=89902&sf=msgonly


looking for range...
eh - some posting around 80, 40 (kph and miles mixed - so no idea)

Looks like Eric is getting great free advertising for the product he is middle-manning.

Looks like a win-win situation to me.

Lets see how the following is handled:

* Safety Issues (as its sold as a turn key product)
* Reliability Issues (as these things all rattle apart...)

Thats what defines a company
How well they stand behind what they provide - right?

...

From a DIY perspective... hell yea - looks like a killer deal

From an End User Perspective (which is who you attract with a turn key kit) the expectations become much higher. If the cycle is not sold at a large enough profit to absorb recalls and such... eh... sheesh...

Duh know
Happy to watch and see tho.

...

There ya go
An unbiased and (trying to be) positive post

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 20 2018 4:53pm

Final post on the subject:

What appears to be a very unbiased (if not particularly flattering) review on "another forum" which is paid for by Luna:

https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/12/1 ... dirt-bike/

So -

My review of LunaCycle:

* I bought from them and they shipped what I ordered
* They support honest info (tho I have heard a few reports to the contrary)
* They provide a service that few or no others provide
* They have the money to back up what they say (just look at the background of the video)

So by my standards:

* Legit Vendor
* Legit Goods

I would not steer people away from Luna (even tho I have had a few run-in's with the proprietor)

To me it looks like Luna and Grin are in totally different markets with little to no crossover
(so there should be no beef in any business regards)

Its ok to like both companies - eh?
(I am practicing my eh's today in celebration of weed legalization in CaNAdia - one step in the right direction against the war on drugs thats destroys families and puts people in cages)

PS: I get no special treatment from Luna. I do not currently do business with Luna. I am not friends with Eric or (at this exact moment in time) any one else associated with Luna. I have no intention to do future business. I posted this in an attempt to understand the negativity I am seeing in the vendor relations area. I make no statement about their customer service, shipping times, quality of products, etc. I only welcome an open dialog about the products they sell - here at our forum.

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by tomjasz » Jun 24 2018 1:58am

The biggest difference is that Luna openly attacks Grin, belittles the inventiveness and does nothing even close to original. So far just hugely overpriced custom builds' claims to be low price leaders, but with the biggest margins in the business. Marketing.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by AF7JA » Jun 24 2018 8:58am

First off, I was happy with Luna as I built my Solar Trike. I had no trouble that I was not the cause of. Luna did recommend that I carry a spare controller. While I did carry it, I never had any need for it.

Secondly, my daughter has a Rolhoff hub. Frankly, I am not impressed. She has had a complete hub failure (the loss of any ability to move other than by rolling the bicycle). It went back for service, this ended a tour from New Orleans to Slippery Rock Pennsylvania.

It is now starting to loose gears again. Yes, the oil has been changed according to the manufacturers schedule.

I have been a lot happier with the reliability of my NuVinci hubs.

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methods   10 GW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by methods » Jun 24 2018 2:22pm

tomjasz wrote:
Jun 24 2018 1:58am
The biggest difference is that Luna openly attacks Grin, belittles the inventiveness and does nothing even close to original. So far just hugely overpriced custom builds' claims to be low price leaders, but with the biggest margins in the business. Marketing.
I have witnessed this happening.

As I said before: Grin is an GREEN ENGINEERING COMPANY with a public facing R&D program... Luna is a Importer/Vendor/Middle man.

Both have their place but they are not in any way comparable.
Anyone who bashes on GRIN is no friend of mine.

I said Justin is honorable and he is. I will hear none of it.

Our society is quick to call out "bad" (which is good...) but not nearly as fast to defend good (which is bad...)
I try to do both
If I make a mistake I can be corrected

All opinions change thru time

-methods
Increasing battery voltage and controller current limit will result in a non linear experience

garyal1   10 mW

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Re: Luna Cycles Apex has production problems

Post by garyal1 » Jun 24 2018 4:42pm

I really appreciate and agree with those who submit that there is a place for Luna in the EV marketplace, I have bought parts from them in the past and had no problem in THOSE transactions.

It was my complaint as the original poster about their complete bike sales. I would never consider them again for a complete bike purchase, no matter the price or claims.

However, I would submit the even though this is a DIY site, as a purchaser of complete and purpose built eBikes, 4 in total, that I am also a DIY guy. I have modified lighting, wiring, batteries, changed chainrings and program settings, based upon what I have learned on this wonderful site, as well as great advice during phone calls with both Grin Technologies and Doug at Ca eBikes, both of which companies I highly recommend.

So I would respectfully submit that there is a place for us despicable "complete bike buyers" on this Great Site! :D

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