5000watt Enduro Ebike help

WHTFSU

1 mW
Joined
Mar 11, 2021
Messages
12
Location
Panama City Beach
hi i'm new to not just this forum but also forum format in general. plse forgive me if I'm doin it wrong. i'll learn quickly. I have a somewhat of a beast of a bike. 5000w Enduro (C&N motor), which i LOVE. but i cant find anyone that has a clue how to work on it here in panama city beach fl. i've fixed several issues but a new one just developed. the hub motor randomly binds up creating a hard rumbling that stops it... until i pick up the back end and run it freely, then it works for a while. it also makes clicking noise at low speed. i'm guessing the next step is taking the hub apart. I appreciate any help i can get here
 

Attachments

  • ebike pic beach.png
    ebike pic beach.png
    47.8 KB · Views: 933
THe most likely problem is connection issues. Disconnect all of the wires between motor and controller (AFTER making sure to take pics and notes on exactly which one is connected to which other one!) and check for corrosion, etc., first. Then reseat them, making sure you reconnect exactly the same ones to each other.


Typically what you see is caused either from hall signals not being readable by the controller, so it can't tell what position the motor is in, and it sends the wrong timing of phase signals to the motor, which can make some pretty horrific noises.


The other thing that can cause it is if there is an intermittent short between motor phases, or between a phase winding inside the motor and the motor's stator laminations *and* the battery negative is also connected to the bike frame somewhere.

You can test to see if it is a motor-side short or a controller-side short if you disconnect the motor/controller connection when the problem occurs, and then try to manually spin the wheel forwards and backwards. If it spins fine this way, then either the problem is in the controller or ocntroller-side wiring (rather than motor or motor wiring), or the problem just went away again.


It can also be corrosion inside the motor from water intrusion (especially salt water), as most motors are not sealed well, if at all (and even when they are, water can still get sucked in via the motor cabling).
 
sorry to hear that turboweldermonkey.
and thank you Amberwolf. I was wondering if i would ever get help. I see you post a lot in here, you're a hero man. Literally no one I've found yet here in Panama City Beach will touch these.

I will try that when i can but i have a new immediate problem now. the battery isn't charging. i took it out and i can actually touch the two charging wires together and nothing. I assume i would have to tear the wrapping off the battery to check inside connections. i feel like I'm dismantling a bomb that i wont be able to put back together IF i can even fix it.
So here's my question, just cut all the shrink wrap off then the plastic box panels?
Thanks again for any help!
 

Attachments

  • ebike battery.jpg
    ebike battery.jpg
    57.4 KB · Views: 851
  • ebike battery label.jpg
    ebike battery label.jpg
    50.5 KB · Views: 851
WHTFSU said:
sorry to hear that turboweldermonkey.
and thank you Amberwolf. I was wondering if i would ever get help. I see you post a lot in here, you're a hero man. Literally no one I've found yet here in Panama City Beach will touch these.

I will try that when i can but i have a new immediate problem now. the battery isn't charging. i took it out and i can actually touch the two charging wires together and nothing. I assume i would have to tear the wrapping off the battery to check inside connections. i feel like I'm dismantling a bomb that i wont be able to put back together IF i can even fix it.
So here's my question, just cut all the shrink wrap off then the plastic box panels?
Thanks again for any help!

You need a careful eye and a multimeter before you end up destroying what's left of your bike. Motor problem might be an intermittent short from the cable getting destroyed. Eventually it will destroy your controller too.
Touching battery cables is a good way to fry whatever cheap bms they included. Charging could be a charger problem or battery going out of balance due to worthless bms.

I recommend you read and measure a lot and do little for a while now, or the bike will be scrapped.
 
thanks Tommm. of course i only tried touching one of the tiny strands of wire bc i knew it would be its own fuse if there was any current. i figured there would not be bc i noticed it doesn’t spark anymore when i plug in each individual wire (2 wires) into the charger. reason for that: (the connector had broken so i had to cut the wires and individually plug each in (carefully) until i can find a new charger connector. (again i CANT find parts anywhere either).

wait why can’t i just splice off the main leads with small gauge wires and connect them to the charger? the 2 large main leads still work fine. don’t they go to the same place?

btw i’ve tried to find info to read or video on this thing and can’t. plus i need this bike now.
thanks again for any help and i will be able to contribute to this forum as i learn more.
 
WHTFSU said:
thanks Tommm. of course i only tried touching one of the tiny strands of wire bc i knew it would be its own fuse if there was any current. i figured there would not be bc i noticed it doesn’t spark anymore when i plug in each individual wire (2 wires) into the charger. reason for that: (the connector had broken so i had to cut the wires and individually plug each in (carefully) until i can find a new charger connector. (again i CANT find parts anywhere either).

wait why can’t i just splice off the main leads with small gauge wires and connect them to the charger? the 2 large main leads still work fine. don’t they go to the same place?

btw i’ve tried to find info to read or video on this thing and can’t. plus i need this bike now.
thanks again for any help and i will be able to contribute to this forum as i learn more.

It depends on the bms construction, if it has a seperate charge part (in which case your wire fuse idea wouldn't work out because charging is a seperate low current circuit) or a common discharge/charge port type bms. If it is common and you can probably splice it if your bike has regen. Also you, can check it with a continuity/volt meter if the discharge /charge parts show the exact same volts and have continuity.

The battery shouldn't spark when you put it on charge anyway. First connect charger to wall and turn it on, then connect to battery. This way both the charger and the battery is energised so no spark should happen.

The charger is probably xlr or some other common plug, you can get them on ebay or aliexpress. You can upload a pic of it. But wiring it up will be futile without a soldering iron and a multimeter.
 
again to be clear I'm not willy-nilly touching battery cables. the 2 main leads still work so no way I'm touching those. i took one tiny strand of the charging wires and touched them, knowing it would be like a super low amp fuse and burn up. but nothing. so its not the charger its those charging wires (see pic).
i am thinking i can just splice off the 2 main leads with small gage wire and make new charging wires. so.... do they go to the same place? i know any other battery charger just hooks up to the +and- terminals on a battery.

its either that or try dismantling the shrink wrap and plastic battery box housing..and not getting it back together.
thanks again
 
Tommm said:
WHTFSU said:
thanks Tommm. of course i only tried touching one of the tiny strands of wire bc i knew it would be its own fuse if there was any current. i figured there would not be bc i noticed it doesn’t spark anymore when i plug in each individual wire (2 wires) into the charger. reason for that: (the connector had broken so i had to cut the wires and individually plug each in (carefully) until i can find a new charger connector. (again i CANT find parts anywhere either).

wait why can’t i just splice off the main leads with small gauge wires and connect them to the charger? the 2 large main leads still work fine. don’t they go to the same place?

btw i’ve tried to find info to read or video on this thing and can’t. plus i need this bike now.
thanks again for any help and i will be able to contribute to this forum as i learn more.

It depends on the bms construction, if it has a seperate charge part (in which case your wire fuse idea wouldn't work out because charging is a seperate low current circuit) or a common discharge/charge port type bms. If it is common and you can probably splice it if your bike has regen. Also you, can check it with a continuity/volt meter if the discharge /charge parts show the exact same volts and have continuity.

The battery shouldn't spark when you put it on charge anyway. First connect charger to wall and turn it on, then connect to battery. This way both the charger and the battery is energised so no spark should happen.

The charger is probably xlr or some other common plug, you can get them on ebay or aliexpress. You can upload a pic of it. But wiring it up will be futile without a soldering iron and a multimeter.

so sorry i just saw where you had replied. im at work so its hard to spend a lot of time in this. ill thoroughly read what you said soon as i can. thanks
 
maybe these pics will at least indicate whether it’s a separate charge part?
Both red and black main leads work and show ~74v.
the red charge wire connects same place so it’s fine.
the black charge wire has a separate connection on the motherboard? problem is there somehow.
you said the charge wires should not spark. i only noticed that when i had to start plugging them in separately and no i didn’t plug the charger in first. maybe that would have eliminated that. but it’s worked fine until now the black wire is dead.
so i can NOT charge it directly to the main cables right?
i guess the prob is in this board? i can’t buy an $800 bat:(
thanks again for any advice!
 

Attachments

  • E19C4C2A-11A7-4E38-BB43-35C92D0D84A1.jpeg
    E19C4C2A-11A7-4E38-BB43-35C92D0D84A1.jpeg
    218.7 KB · Views: 773
  • 7175B205-C007-4549-B448-5BF2F4D02382.jpeg
    7175B205-C007-4549-B448-5BF2F4D02382.jpeg
    385.8 KB · Views: 773
  • 955840CB-72F5-4CF5-A33F-5A7E3C63E90F.jpeg
    955840CB-72F5-4CF5-A33F-5A7E3C63E90F.jpeg
    429.8 KB · Views: 773
I am no battery expert, but everything looks fine physically, the charging thing is of no interest at all the battery shut down for some reason and you want to know why. I would remove the balancing connector from the bms (one with many wires) use the multimeter to measure the voltage between the banks. The voltage should rise with equal value as you go through the banks with one probe while keeping the other probe on the first pin (look at the bottom for easily accessible pins on the connector).
 
thanks but:
battery didn't shut down. still strong.
the main black and red leads still read 74+ volts.
the red charging wire is connected to the same place as the main red lead so its fine.
it just stopped charging and the prob is with the black wire, on the circuit board somehow.
again, does this mean i have a separate charge part? and can not hook a black charge wire directly to the black main lead?
btw i do not have regen.
 
Tommm said:
I am no battery expert, but everything looks fine physically, the charging thing is of no interest at all the battery shut down for some reason and you want to know why. I would remove the balancing connector from the bms (one with many wires) use the multimeter to measure the voltage between the banks. The voltage should rise with equal value as you go through the banks with one probe while keeping the other probe on the first pin (look at the bottom for easily accessible pins on the connector).

Tommm or Amberwolf...please help me make sense out of this. not sure if i’m explaining it right but i’ll try again.
battery works, still strong just doesn’t charge.
it appears THIS circuit board is bad. can i buy these ?? also again, can i not hook the black charger wire to the main black lead? i’m ok with a no. please has anyone here touched the inside of a battery. i can’t find anyone that has.
and no i do not have regen.
 

Attachments

  • E85F4799-C539-4BA8-B954-C1402626B494.jpeg
    E85F4799-C539-4BA8-B954-C1402626B494.jpeg
    777.5 KB · Views: 684
  • 61F10126-6566-4D0A-9D05-2DB5DAD4A3DE.jpeg
    61F10126-6566-4D0A-9D05-2DB5DAD4A3DE.jpeg
    348.1 KB · Views: 684
sorry, so i finally learned its called the BMS.
is it possible that it "shut down" the charging for some reason?
also im trying to find another BMS, are they custom made? I'm trying to not have to buy a thousand dollar battery:/ especially when this one seems ok otherwise.
 
You aren't close to being able to do anything if you want to be safe.
You still have to measure more things.
So the "to bike" wire is giving out a good voltage, but not the charge wire?
If the bike has regen, yea, you could hook up the "to bike" wire to the charger (ideally by doing a Y splitter on the "to bike" wire close to the bms.

If you should do this depends on why this has happened.
1, The charge circuitry of the bms was cooked/destroyed because of bad design/QA/crushed.
In this case you can charge through the other wire fine, assuming the charger's max voltage limit works fine
2, It shut down because a legitimate case of protection from overvoltage/overvoltage spike because you have weak or unbalanced cells.
In this case you would have a nice house fire.

To determine if it is case 1 or 2, that's where measuring the many cell bank voltages comes in which I described in my last post.
You can measure it with multimeter by pulling out the tiny connectors, the bottom has a metal bit that is easy to probe, or you can measure with it still connected using these points on the board (top or bottom).
Screenshot_20210421_112732.jpg
 
Tommm said:
You aren't close to being able to do anything if you want to be safe.
You still have to measure more things.
So the "to bike" wire is giving out a good voltage, but not the charge wire?
If the bike has regen, yea, you could hook up the "to bike" wire to the charger (ideally by doing a Y splitter on the "to bike" wire close to the bms.

If you should do this depends on why this has happened.
1, The charge circuitry of the bms was cooked/destroyed because of bad design/QA/crushed.
In this case you can charge through the other wire fine, assuming the charger's max voltage limit works fine
2, It shut down because a legitimate case of protection from overvoltage/overvoltage spike because you have weak or unbalanced cells.
In this case you would have a nice house fire.

To determine if it is case 1 or 2, that's where measuring the many cell bank voltages comes in which I described in my last post.
You can measure it with multimeter by pulling out the tiny connectors, the bottom has a metal bit that is easy to probe, or you can measure with it still connected using these points on the board (top or bottom).

thank you so much again. i’m slowly learning stuff.
i checked the cells by holding neg end of meter to bottom pin (left), and with each consecutive pin i touched with positive end, voltage increased by 3.7. it did gradually increase by an extra .2V by the end of the run. (it wasn’t with one cell they were all within a few hundredths of 3.7V.)

yes there must be a reason the bms isolated/disconnected the negative charging wire. whether it’s a safety issue or a faulty component is the question.
anyway i put a small jumper wire (see pic) from the main neg lead to the neg charging wire and plugged it in to charger. it’s charging now.
AND you were totally right about plugging the charger in first then connecting wires. i tried it both ways. sparks when not plugged in first and doesn’t spark when charger is plugged in.
so now.. i guess i have to babysit it and make sure the charger turns off? any other way?
 
WHTFSU said:
trying pic again

This way you are always attempting to charge the pack, powering some destroyed circuitry. You might have some parasitic drain this way. I would make it simpler and just peel the skin a bit from the discharge wire (easier than heating up the huge solder pad) and wrapping the charge wire around and soldering it.

1C8446DF-568C-4592-92E8-228F88CF3D04_edit_4893741088314.jpg
 
When you charge using the discharge port, the BMS cannot protect the cells from overcharge, and cannot stop the charger from charging even during balancing, when the BMS would normally shut down input to let high cells be drained down so that further charging of low cells doesn't end up overcharging the high ones.

The balancers (shunt resistors) on each channel can only "bypass" or "shunt away" so much current, so if the charger is still able to "push" more than that thru the cells that are already full, then they can become overcharged. That's why the BMS has the capability to turn off the charge input.

The balancers will always operate, not just when charging, so they will still bring the high cells back down over time once the charger is disconnected. But during charging, they can't keep up with any charge current higher than what they are designed to shunt around the group.


When the cells become unbalanced over time, which is more likely to happen without BMS control of charge input, the problem usually gets worse and worse. How long it will take to become a problem depends on the actual cells used (quality, and how well-matched they are to each other) and how hard they are used, how far they are discharged each time, etc.


So when you bypass the BMS's charge port this way, you'll want to manually monitor the cell voltages to ensure you don't run into this problem over time.
 
Yea, the balancing should still work, but as a long term fix ideally you'd get a bluetooth bms so you actually know what's going on and why.
 
wow. thank you both so much. all of that makes perfect sense so thanks for being so articulate. for now the charger does shut off when charged so at least there's that, and i am able to use the bike. nice beach day yesterday:) i will try to find a bluetooth BMS, and maybe in the mean time move the charge wire off over to the discharge wire.

also i prob should focus back on the original problem i had, the hub malfunctioning/locking up. that prob has weirdly stopped for now but it still clicks loudly.
 
WHTFSU said:
wow. thank you both so much. all of that makes perfect sense so thanks for being so articulate. for now the charger does shut off when charged so at least there's that, and i am able to use the bike. nice beach day yesterday:) i will try to find a bluetooth BMS, and maybe in the mean time move the charge wire off over to the discharge wire.

also i prob should focus back on the original problem i had, the hub malfunctioning/locking up. that prob has weirdly stopped for now but it still clicks loudly.

Since there aren't a lot of moving parts in a hub, most issues with them are either a magnet coming lose or the cable getting destroyed somewhere.
 
WHTFSU said:
also i prob should focus back on the original problem i had, the hub malfunctioning/locking up. that prob has weirdly stopped for now but it still clicks loudly.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1652290#p1630511
 
Back
Top