Hub kit from CSC. Throttle and PAS problems.

P.S.
I'll be going back out in a few minutes to try something.
I'll be increasing and decreasing the throttle without letting it go all the way back to zero. Just to see if it makes a difference.
That's how thin my ideas are getting, lol..
The thing that disturbes every logical solution is that the skipping happens so randomly. It can be twice in a row, then nothing for the next 20 times, then once, then nothing for ten times..
It's making my hair gray.. er..

Update.

Can not for the life of me figure this out.
Tried something new today. increased and decreased the speed of the rear wheel with the throttle, but never letting the throttle go to zero. Only down to 4-5 km/h then back up to 30 or so. A little like reving a engine, and no "skipping" or power loss at all.
Tried to hold the throttle in one position while applying the brake lever to turn on the regen, again. No skipping. Weird.
And yet, it cant be the throttle handle that has a problem either, since the same "skipping" happens using the PAS only. Not the throttle at all..
It would seem like I just have to dump everything in the garbage. Cant ride with something that can potentially be lethal in traffic.

BTW. Is it anyone that has the same combo as me? KT lcd8h display, KT48ZWSRKT-SJT02L controller and a 1500w motor?
Would be interested in knowing if this can be a setup problem as I am running the default setup i got from CSC.

Hi Norwegian54,

You said:

applying the brake lever to turn on the regen, again. No skipping. Weird.

Click to expand...

The settings you posted look like you haven't actually got any regen programmed. "C13 - 0" is zero regen on most KT controllers.

Can you describe what it feels like when you pull the brake?
Does it feel like the motor is trying to slow you down? Or do you just stop accelerating and start to coast?
What happens when you release the brake? Does the acceleration kick in immediately or does it take a second and come back smoothly?

If you are accelerating with PAS or throttle, and you pull the brake for just a fraction of a second and the immediately release it again, does it make the same feeling as this 'skipping' feeling you describe?

Try each of the scenarios below separately to see if the skipping is related to any of the various throttle / PAS / brake sensors being connected. In each scenario go for a test ride, or try it at home with the wheel off the ground and see in which scenarios you can make the 'skipping' happen.

Be really careful not to damage any connections by repeatedly pluggin/unplugging them. It can help to take photos of which connectors go to which connectors before undoing them. Also be very careful in 1. and 2. while both the brake sensors are disconnected not to pedal and brake, or throttle and brake at the same time!

Thottle / PAS, no brake sensors.
1. Disconnect the throttle and disconnect both the brake sensors from the controller. Try with PAS only.
2. Disconnect the PAS. Reconnect the throttle. Leave the both brake sensors disconnected. Try with throttle only

Throttle / PAS, only front brake sensor
3. Connect only one brake sensor (front), keep PAS disconnected. Try with throttle and only front brake
4. Keep front brake sensor connected, disconnect throttle, connect PAS, Try with PAS and only front brake

Throttle / PAS, only rear brake sensor
5. Connect only one brake sensor (rear), keep throttle disconnected. Try with PAS and only rear brake
6. Keep rear brake sensor connected, disconnect PAS, connect throttle, Try with throttle and only rear brake

Tell us if you can make the 'skipping' happen in each of these scenarios when these various items are disconnected.

thanks,
Oli.

Thanks a lot for answering.

Well, C13 isn't actually on 0. I have the regen on 2. And in speeds over 20km/h I can feel its slowing the bike down. Not a lot at that speed but speeds over 35km/h it is noticable. So it seems like it is doing what it is supposed to.
Just to mention this. So far I have over 700km on the bike. so it is ridable, but the skipping has been there since day one. And with two different KT48ZWSRKT-SJT02L controllers.
And since I usually don't go very fast it hasen't tried to pull the rear wheel off more than a few times.
And never like the other day. But that could be a little because of the speed I guess. It is almost like the hall sensors loose track of where they are and grab hold of the nearest point hey find. And this time that point was in front of the sensor a little, making the wheel lock up for a fraction of a second. But that was enough to rip the wheel off the bike bend the rim and tear the attacment plate for the rear gear shift in half.
I normally use PAS and unless I pedal fast, meaning over 40km/h, the skipping are just like a jolt in the bike. Sometimes just a timy bit, some times more severe.
And it only happens once, after applying PAS or throttle. The rest of the acceleration or if I keep a constant speed it is a smooth as silk. Until next time I stop pedaling or release the throttle. Then it might jolt again one second after I apply PAS or throttle. Or it might not. It is so totally random.
Now that the bike is up in the air, I can hear the motor stop running for half a second when it "skips" Thats why I know for sure that it loses power. But at the same time, checking the power to the hall sensors with the multimeter shows no power drop at all. Odd.
At the moment I have broken pieces all over the place to I can't use the PAS at all. The attachment plate for the rear gear shifter are snapped off so I have to wait for a new one to come in.

But I'll go over what I can tomorrow and let you know the results.
Again. Thanks a lot for taking the time. It is greatly appreciated

I'd try disconnecting the brake cutoffs and see if you still get the skipping.

Quick update. Got things plugged back together so that it can be tested with wheel up.
Only cables that has been disconnected is the power cables to the motor. The rest is the way it was before.
But now, PAS has turned crazy on me. I must all of a sudden pedal the wrong way. Backwords.. WTF??? Throttle works as before, though.. Do I have a ghost in my controller??
Oh, well. Back to the garage.

Oli.Hall said:

What happens when you release the brake? Does the acceleration kick in immediately or does it take a second and come back smoothly?

If you are accelerating with PAS or throttle, and you pull the brake for just a fraction of a second and the immediately release it again, does it make the same feeling as this 'skipping' feeling you describe?

Click to expand...

After releasing the brake, the accelrattion usually comes back smoothly.
Tried the quick brake/regen and i can't make the skipping happen at all. It delays a fraction the comes back nice and smooth.

Oli.Hall said:

Thottle / PAS, no brake sensors.
1. Disconnect the throttle and disconnect both the brake sensors from the controller. Try with PAS only.
2. Disconnect the PAS. Reconnect the throttle. Leave the both brake sensors disconnected. Try with throttle only

Throttle / PAS, only front brake sensor
3. Connect only one brake sensor (front), keep PAS disconnected. Try with throttle and only front brake
4. Keep front brake sensor connected, disconnect throttle, connect PAS, Try with PAS and only front brake

Throttle / PAS, only rear brake sensor
5. Connect only one brake sensor (rear), keep throttle disconnected. Try with PAS and only rear brake
6. Keep rear brake sensor connected, disconnect PAS, connect throttle, Try with throttle and only rear brake

Tell us if you can make the 'skipping' happen in each of these scenarios when these various items are disconnected.

Click to expand...

All of the points have been carefully gone through. And tested again. And nothing makes any difference at all.
How ever, after the PAS turned the wrong way, the caracteristics of the "skips" have changed a little. Most times it still is like a normal power loss, but sometimes it feel more abrupt in middle acceleration, if you know what I mean. Just like the power goes out in a fraction of a second, giving a little jolt when it leaves, or almost like you hit the wheel with something. You can feel the vibration in the whole bike. It is almost like the "backwards" pull that before came when the power came back, now happens when the power leaves. Then when the power comes back after half a second it is smoother.
This is so weird.
No loose connections anywhere but still, the PAS now goes the wrong way.. I'm starting to think my bike is haunted, lol..
Anyway. The wrong way PAS is an easy fix. Just switch a couple of wires. It is one power and two signal in that connection, right?

Also had to cut down the cassette a little to make more space for reinforcements.
At least I can try to make sure that the wheel don't rip off anymore. A wheel that simply locks up for a fraction are a LOT less dangerous that a wheel falling off.
Even ideally it would have been nice to figure out the power problem.
BTW. I found that the wheel with the magnets was a little askew, so I straightened it up. Not that I think it helps a lot. The biggest magnet/sensor gap vas still no more than about 3mm.

So, I'm still open for ideas folks.
And thanks a lot for your help so far Oli.Hall

E-HP said:

I'd try disconnecting the brake cutoffs and see if you still get the skipping.

Click to expand...

Thanks for answering.

Done and done. Makes no difference what so ever.
BTW, I have the throttle/ key lock combo that came with the CSC kit if that has any relevance.

Norwegian54 said:

BTW. I found that the wheel with the magnets was a little askew, so I straightened it up. Not that I think it helps a lot. The biggest magnet/sensor gap vas still no more than about 3mm.

Click to expand...

3mm is way too much in my opinion. 1mm is more like it. Seems like you have a few things going on, so you need to address each to narrow down the issues.

Since you're comfortable with opening the motor, then I'd check continuity for each of the phase wires, from the controller to where they connect inside of the motor. I recall having something similar when I had a phase wire issue, but in my case due to a connector. There may be an intermittent issue somewhere between the controller and stator.

E-HP said:

Norwegian54 said:

BTW. I found that the wheel with the magnets was a little askew, so I straightened it up. Not that I think it helps a lot. The biggest magnet/sensor gap vas still no more than about 3mm.

Click to expand...

3mm is way too much in my opinion. 1mm is more like it. Seems like you have a few things going on, so you need to address each to narrow down the issues.

Since you're comfortable with opening the motor, then I'd check continuity for each of the phase wires, from the controller to where they connect inside of the motor. I recall having something similar when I had a phase wire issue, but in my case due to a connector. There may be an intermittent issue somewhere between the controller and stator.

Click to expand...

Oh yes. I'm more than comfortable with mechanical and light electronic struff. After all, I have built this ebike from scratch. Lighting system, brake lights and all.
The gap between the magnets are now closed to less that 1mm. Didn't make any difference, though. The PAS was going the wrong way before I discovered that. PAS problem came right out of the blue. But I do agree with the phase thing, though. I had a close look inside the motor and could measure the Hall sensors, but I have no idea how to check the phase wires for errors. Apart from visual inspection.
If it is a problem somewhere it has to be on the motor side. The wires got a really good strech when the wheel tore loose. So I have made sure the wires aren't damaged where they go into the motor. And no problem there.
I hear that opening up the motor to check the pahse wires are not nesessary. Just connect two and two together and when you turn the wheel, it should have a little resistance if the wires are ok. That is correct?
Don't think that is the cause of the "skipping" though. Since that has been there since day one.
But thanks a lot for the tip.
I'll let you know if I find anything.

Continuity checked. Not a problem there either.

Btw. When it comes to the PAS pedal backwords.
I have had to put the PAS sensor on the left side of the bike, not the right as i am supposed to.
I remember it was a setting in the KT LCD8H menu for that. And maybe in th LCD3 menu too.
Can't remember where in the menu, though, but I'll find out.
Now, that I have reset the menu to CSC default, of course I have reset that item too..
Man, I feel like such a ...

The menu setting is C1.
How ever. I stubled upon something that might have caused a problem. Maybe even the exact "skipping" I have had all along..

In the manual for the KT-LCD8H it sais this:

Does that mean that when it sais reverse 6 signal, it really means 6 MAGNETS?
That could easily have been the major part of the problem all along, because I have 8 magnets on the PAS sensor disk.
And THAT has been this way since day one.

Btw, I attach the complete manual for the KT-LCD8H here, since it can be hard to find.
At least it took some time for me to find it.
As always, though. We have some bad translations from chinese in it

Norwegian54 said:

Does that mean that when it sais reverse 6 signal, it really means 6 MAGNETS?
That could easily have been the major part of the problem all along, because I have 8 magnets on the PAS sensor disk.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's the number of magnets. However, as long as you're choosing the right direction, the number of magnets only changes how quickly the assist starts up. After that it won't matter much.

E-HP said:

Norwegian54 said:

Does that mean that when it sais reverse 6 signal, it really means 6 MAGNETS?
That could easily have been the major part of the problem all along, because I have 8 magnets on the PAS sensor disk.

Click to expand...

Yes, it's the number of magnets. However, as long as you're choosing the right direction, the number of magnets only changes how quickly the assist starts up. After that it won't matter much.

Click to expand...

I suspected that might be the case.
The thing is though, that is the only "error" i have found that have been present during the entire use of the bike.
And I discovered a difference now that I have to pedal the wrong way and all 8 magnets in play. It doesn't act the same way. I still have the power loss "skip", but not the "backlash powerloss".
I'll see if I can't correct this in some way, then take it out on the road again. It's hard to get the exact same result just running the rear wheel in the air. I mean, I can easily live with the power loss for half a second as long as I can get rid of the backlash. That is the dangerous part of it.
The new parts are also here now, so I hope that I'll be able to do a real test drive sometime today. Just need to fabricate something to lock the axle from turning on the right side too. Just in case.
I'll let you all know the result.
In the mean time, thank you all for helping.

Guess the main problem has been found.
It was the magnet plate for the PAS all along.
And it makes sense too, since that is one of the few things that has been unchanged since the very start.
Must have been an error in the production I guess.
I moved the PAS sensor and magnet plate over to the right side of the crank. Made sure to put the plate on in the correct direction and voila...
Wrong way.
Had to pedal backwords to make the motor start. Even though C1 in the menu was set at 0.
Changed C1 to 5, and the motor started when pedalling forward..
Went over the manual, did some quick googling, but found no error. Trust me, by that time my hair har been gray for a while :?
So, I had a closer look at the plate to see if maybe I had put it on inside out, but no. Checked distance between hall sensor and plate. No problem..
So, as a last thing I decided to turn the magnet plate the wrong way. Put it on against the directional arrows, and guess what. Set C1 back to 0 and it worked perfectly. Nice smooth motor start when pedalling FORWARD. Wow.
So, as far as I know, some error has been done producing that plate. And since it's made from chinesium, no surprise there.
Now everything is put back together, as an extra security I also reenforced both sides of the rear wheel axle with two 4mm stainless steel plates screwed on to the frame.
Went for a test ride of about 35km yesterday, and i noticed a couple of "knocks" this time too, but very light and only when the power to the wheel stopped. I.e, I stopped pedalling.
Otherwise, nice smooth start when starting to pedal.
Jeez, this has been an ordeal.
When it comes to the PAS magnets. Of course it matters how many magnets you set it up to read. Otherwise, why would they have made a difference in the settings between 5 to 10 magnets.
Also, I read in some post somewhere that if you encountered the "pedal backwords" problem, just set C1 in the menu to reverse signal and everything is good..
What ever you do, don't belive that. It's gonna destroy your bike. I mean, look at the difference in the waveform for forwards and reverse. It's a important difference between those, right?
Well, there you have it. Set C1 in reverse when you don't have the V12 sensot, and your motor will have a severe "blowback" at times. Potentially a really dangerous thing to do.
Anyway. Problem seems to be solved. And it was all due to a poorly produced PAS magnet plate needed to be set against the rotation arrow.
Now summer is finally here and there's gonna be some nice trips for the next few days.
Thanks to Oli.Hall and E-HP for great help.
Have a nice weekend and a nice summer.

I was jumping the gun a bit saying that it was ok now.
Better, yes, but far from ok.
Yesteday it tried to rip the rear wheel off again.
And i can't find anything wrong with it at all.
Since this sh... error can't be found and it is potentially lethal to use, it will now be dismantled and thrown in the garbage.
No more ebike crap for me... It's simply money out the window.

Just want to say:

DO NOT BUY ANY OF THE KITS FROM CSC https://www.carbonspeedcycle.com/

THEY ARE DANGEROUS AND CAN POTENTIALLY GET YOU KILLED.

Hi Norwegian54,

Don't give up just yet!

There are only a limited number of things that can be at fault here. It's just a case of methodically going through each one until you find the problem.

Just to be sure I am understanding you correctly, please can you confirm that you have tested all six of the troubleshooting steps exactly as outlined in my post from May 25 2021 9:54pm above?

Was there any of those six scenarios where the skipping didn't happen?
Or are you saying that the skipping happened in all six scenarios?

Thanks,
Oli.

Oli.Hall said:

Hi Norwegian54,

Don't give up just yet!

There are only a limited number of things that can be at fault here. It's just a case of methodically going through each one until you find the problem.

Just to be sure I am understanding you correctly, please can you confirm that you have tested all six of the troubleshooting steps exactly as outlined in my post from May 25 2021 9:54pm above?

Was there any of those six scenarios where the skipping didn't happen?
Or are you saying that the skipping happened in all six scenarios?

Thanks,
Oli.

Click to expand...

Hello again Oli. Whish it had been good in any of those scenarios. Then it had been fixed by now
Like you can see a little further up in the thread, none at all of those steps made much difference.
Tried all of them twice to be sure.
What I did discover, though, was that the PAS magnet plate has a problem. I can only make it work correctly by mounting it against the arrows. And now it is on the right side too. C1 in the menu is on 0. Should be correct.
When I had the magnet plate mounted the correct way, with the arrows, I had to pedal backwords to make the motor start. And no wires are crossed anywhere either.
I have read some place that I am not the only one with that problem. Mount the plate the correct way, and you have to set C1 to 5. Reverse. But looking at the wavepattern that is very wrong indeed.
It is better now, since I have been able to set C1 to 0. But, still not good. Smoother starts, but still, sometimes I get the skip. And I have noticed that it is worse when the motor turns slowly.
How ever, yesterday it tried to pull the wheel off again. Same way as before. at about 20km/h and going from coasting to pedalling.
But because I now have much stronger mounting points it only managed to sqew the wheel. not rip it off.
This is more than weird. It has been somewhat like this ever since the very first trip.
And I'm all out of ideas. CSC is not a lot of help either. mumbling about videos and shit.
I do know, it is dangerous to ride in traffic this way. Imagine what could happen at 50km/h in normal traffic. I'd be a number in the statistic.
It is one last ting I might try, though. Set the C1 to 1 or 2. Lower the start sensitivity.
I have now been riding a little over 140 km since I put it together, and it is better, but not good. I guess the severe skip has only happend 4 times or so. Not wheel ripping severe, but very noticable indeed. A little clicking sound giving a small jolt in the bike, happens a lot more.

Btw, it is a super annoying thing about the throttle too.
Twisting is goes nothing, nothing, nothing until about 40%, then 0 to 100% within the next 30% and then nothing again trom there to full..
Bad quality pot I guess. It's made from chinesium, so what can one expect. Don't think it has anything to do with the skip, it's just annoying. Especially since I'm used to motorbike throttles. Imagine that kind of throttle on my 136hp, old Suzuki, lol..

Norwegian54 said:

Btw, it is a super annoying thing about the throttle too.
Twisting is goes nothing, nothing, nothing until about 40%, then 0 to 100% within the next 30% and then nothing again trom there to full..
Bad quality pot I guess. It's made from chinesium, so what can one expect. Don't think it has anything to do with the skip, it's just annoying. Especially since I'm used to motorbike throttles. Imagine that kind of throttle on my 136hp, old Suzuki, lol..

Click to expand...

That can be fixed without too much effort https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification

Hi,

Ok, so the problem still occurs riding with the throttle only when the brake sensors and the PAS is disconnected. It also still occurs when riding with PAS only and with the throttle disconnected. So we can be reasonably sure that the problem doesn't exist in the throttle, or the PAS, or the brake sensors as those tests seem to rule those out.

You already said you swapped the controller with another identical controller and you restored the default programming and the problem is the same with both controllers, so that should rule out the controller (other than a general controller-motor incompatibility) which is rare.

So by a process of elimination, the problem that remains is in the motor, the battery, or the wiring.

Please can you go back to scenario 2 with only the throttle and the display connected.

2. Disconnect the PAS. Reconnect the throttle. Leave the both brake sensors disconnected. Try with throttle only

Click to expand...

We will now try running on throttle only but without the hall sensors. Most KT controllers will run in sensorless mode. It may be less smooth as you pull away from a standstill and it may make a more buzzy noise, but it should work ok once you are above walking speed.

Please go ahead and disconnect the hall sensors. If your controller has a separate hall cable with the 5/6 hall wires then completely disconnect this plug leaving the phase wires connected and go for a ride with the throttle only.

Does the skipping still happen?

Thanks,
Oli.

E-HP said:

Norwegian54 said:

Btw, it is a super annoying thing about the throttle too.
Twisting is goes nothing, nothing, nothing until about 40%, then 0 to 100% within the next 30% and then nothing again trom there to full..
Bad quality pot I guess. It's made from chinesium, so what can one expect. Don't think it has anything to do with the skip, it's just annoying. Especially since I'm used to motorbike throttles. Imagine that kind of throttle on my 136hp, old Suzuki, lol..

Click to expand...

That can be fixed without too much effort https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/kits/golden-motor-magic-pie/70584-guide-to-hall-sensor-throttle-operation-testing-and-modification

Click to expand...

Thanks a lot for the link. That's useful for more than just my throttle :thumb:

Oli.Hall said:

So by a process of elimination, the problem that remains is in the motor, the battery, or the wiring.

Please can you go back to scenario 2 with only the throttle and the display connected.
]2. Disconnect the PAS. Reconnect the throttle. Leave the both brake sensors disconnected. Try with throttle only

We will now try running on throttle only but without the hall sensors. Most KT controllers will run in sensorless mode. It may be less smooth as you pull away from a standstill and it may make a more buzzy noise, but it should work ok once you are above walking speed.

Please go ahead and disconnect the hall sensors. If your controller has a separate hall cable with the 5/6 hall wires then completely disconnect this plug leaving the phase wires connected and go for a ride with the throttle only.

Does the skipping still happen?

Click to expand...

Thanks again for taking the time.
I think we can eliminate batteries too, since I use dual, parallel batteries, and it does the same what ever of those batteries I use.

In page 38 of the manual it sais:

L3 parameter is applicable to the dual mode controller. The default of the factory is 1.
When L3=0, the controller will activate Non-Hall model only when the Hall sensor in the motor fails
When L3=1, the controller willchoose the proper model to use according tothe controller system optimization.

Click to expand...

It must be this setting that you mean I can use when disconnecting the motor hall sensors, right?
I'll give it a try later today and come back with the result.
Its a bit of a job because I have to remove both batteries to unscrew the covers of the controller box
Hope that buzzing doesn't create heat in the controller, though. So far my controller has been nice and cool all the way.